Is there anyone out there that has taken the powercab to the SB5 upgrade path?
I am having a very hard time finding out if the SB5 will program on the main. I know it has no programming track function but what about POM?
Thanks
Steve B
Steve,
When you use the Power Cab with the SB5, it must be plugged into a UTP panel rather than the PCP panel, that came with the Power Cab The SB5 overrides both the command station and booster of the Power Cab so that it essentially becomes a ProCab throttle. In that configuration you can only program on the main (POM).
In order to use programming track mode you have to reconnect the Power Cab to the PCP panel again, which must be totally isolated from the SB5. In fact, you can just remove the PCP panel and its power supply from the layout and use it at your bench to program your DCC locomotives. The advantage of programming track mode over POM is that you get readback of the CV values.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Tom has given you all the info on using the PowerCab with the SB5. I would just add first to answer your question you can program on the main with the SB5 and second if you have a small layout and are currently only using the PowerCab and a PCP you can remove the PCP and plug the PowerCab directly into the SB5 using the right side slot, If you have a larger layout you can add UTP's around the layout and connect them to the SB5.
Marty C
If you need more info or have technical questions about the SB5, consider joining the NCE-DCC forum on Yahoo Group. There are several knowledgeable experts on that forum.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/NCE-DCC/conversations/messages
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain If you need more info or have technical questions about the SB5, consider joining the NCE-DCC forum on Yahoo Group. There are several knowledgeable experts on that forum. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/NCE-DCC/conversations/messages Rich
I'll second that. The Yahoo group is great!
Neal
blabrideI am having a very hard time finding out if the SB5 will program on the main. I know it has no programming track function but what about POM?
i'd like to improve my understanding and have some questions
what is the distinction between "programming on the main" vs. "program track"? Are these separate tracks or simply different screen sequences on the PowerCab, only one including queries of the manufacturer ID and decoder version? (being able to query the decoder confirms connections to it - think dirty wheels).
The SB5 manual explicitly states "To access the NCE Program Track, you will need to have available, the original set up o the Power Cab and use it connected to a separate piece of track that you can use as the Program Track".
From the schematics I see two differences between the Universal Throttle Panel (UTP) and PowerCab Panel (PCP). The UTP has track connections allowing a PowerCab, plugged into the correct plug on the panel, to provide track power and signaling.
The PCP has two RJ12 connectors on the back allowing them to be daisy-chained together allowing the cab-bus to be from one UTP to another. The UTP has only one connector on the back allowing it to be tied to another UTP, but not a 2nd. When used as a UTP, the PCP track connections are unused.
A cab is a very simple device, it receives polls and screen updates from a command station and sends button presses in response to the polls. A cab is a user interface to the command station. A PowerCab is both a command station and a cab. When a PowerCab detects cab-bus signals when plugged into a UTP mastered by a separate command station, it operates simply as any other cab.
Its not clear to me that an SB5 command station does all the operations performed by a PowerCab, as a command station. This would be why a PowerCab is still needed to program decoders. It would also be safer not use the SB5 for programming decoders because an SB5 is intended to connect to a layout with many locomotives and prone to reprogramming all locos by mistake. Is this true?
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
I must be learning by osmosis here, and some outside reading. I can say for sure the programing track refers to a electrically isolated piece of track or even a separate piece of track.
This Youtube vid explains what happens when you add an SB5 to a Powercab
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
watched the video. Confirmed many things, but he didn't explain/demonstrate if a decoder could be programmed using the SB5. He mentioned that he programmed decoders somewhere else using the PowerCab.
BigDaddyI can say for sure the programing track refers to a electrically isolated piece of track or even a separate piece of track.
What the above statement suggests to me is that there are two separate track connections: one to the main and one to a "programming track", whether part of the layout or separate from it. I only see one track connection on either the PowerCab UTP or SB5.
I am able to program a decoder using a PowerCab with either the "Program on Main" or "Use Program Track" sequences. The sequences are different. I did this on the same track with all other locos removed.
It seems to me there can be a special section of track on a layout that uses a DPDT switch to isolate it from the SB5 track connections and allowing it to be connected to a UTP. That UTP can be connected to the end of the PTP daisy chain and used as a regular PTP during layout operation. If a PowerCab is connected to that UTP with the SB5 powered up, the PowerCab should behave like a plain cab, a ProCab.
However, if the SB5 is not powered up and the UTP is connected to its own power supply, a PowerCab connected to the UTP will be both command station and cab and the "Use Program Track" option should be available.
(Unlike a PTP, plugging in power to the UTP does not disconnect it from power supplied from the PTP daisy chain. I wouldn't recommend having both connected at the same time).
If it is plugged into the appropriate UTP connection and if that special programming track DPDT switch connects it to the UTP, the PowerCab should be able to read the manufacture ID and decoder version and program the decoder without affecting any other locos on the layout. (The DPDT isolates the program track from the layout).
The UTP does not have to be connected to the PTP daisy chain in order to program on the program track, but then the UTP cannot then be used as a PTP with the SB5.
This seems to be how these components were designed to be used by NCE.
I don't understand why PTPs can have there own power supplies that isolate them from the command station side of power and the UTP does not.
A UTP has pads for a DPDT switch allowing a PowerCab connected thru the rear connector to provide track power to program a decoder instead of the appropriate front connector.
Thanks for reply's guy's. I guess I should give you some more info on my situation.
I built a 8 by 16 foot expandable layout over the last two years and in the meantime tried out both the Digitrax and NCE sytems.
The digitrax system is what is setup on the layout. The Powercab is what I have been using at the bench test track to program.
Now that I am at the point of serious consisting several loco's, speed matching on the main, moving from one panel to the next with my DT402 I am being driven mad by the the many extra steps in the digitrax system. Particularly the infamous slotmax from missing some dispatch steps.
I also love the small throttles NCE offers versus the small ones that digitrax has like my UT4.
I have therefore grown to love the simplicity of the NCE system. Now I am deciding between just adding the SB5 the NCE panels, and a CAB06 or going with the Procab 5 amp system and use the powercab as the extra cab when I need one. There is a 100 dollar difference being the Pro Cab system is more expensive.
I am still researching the pro's and con's of the two set ups.
The Power Cab w/SB5 combo should offer everything the PH-Pro 5 offers except the PH-Pro supports more total cab addresses - i.e. 63 vs. 6.
There is only one track connection on the PowerCab. So it IS all the same track. The difference is that in "program track" mode, it is low power, and it programs any decoder connected to those rails. In Programming on the Main, it uses full track power, but is only directed to the selected loco address.
To keep from accidently programming all your locos, NCE has the DCC AutoSwitch device, which is a realy with 2 sets of outputs. One goes to a dedicated program track, the other goes to the main track. When you select Program on program track, the relay flips the output to the program track terminals and cuts off the main. This device can be used with other brand DCC systems that don't already have dedicated program track outputs, like the Digitrax DB150.
The SB5 has no program track outputs, so you cna only do programming on the main. You can unplug the PowerCab from the SB5 (or a UTP connected to the SB5) and plug it in to the PowerCab Panel and use the powerCab to program on the program track just like prior to adding the SB5.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Great explanation Randy. I think this dual simplicity with the one contoller and system has me going all NCE with everything. The older I get the less steps I want to think about.
Thanks Tom since I have the Powercab I can't see any extra benfits I would use in the Procab. Even when I expand to 16 by 16. I see I can always add a DB5 in a seperate power district for the expansion.
My opinion of this (including the Digitrax DB150 - so yes, even the brand I prefer) so-called 'simplicity' is that it is actually false. OK, one 2 wires to hook up, instead of 4. BUT how simpel is it when you forget about the single output and reprogram 10 of your locos at once, and then have to fix the 9 you didn't mean to program? Wouldn't it have been simpler to hok up the exta pair of wires and not have the oops?
I think NCE recognized that, which is why they made the autoswitch device. But now instead of just plugging the wires into the command station like you do with the PowerPro, Digitrax DCS100, or Zephyr, now you have to wire in this extra device. Not really difficult, but the way some people re about anythign having to do with electricity.. and then who totally get lost when it's DCC and not DC (despite the concept being exactly the same - there's that mental thing that says "oh, electronics, it MUST be much more complicated").
Bottom line, it seems to me to be much simpler in the end to have the system that pretty much makes programming all of your locos at once nearly impossible - it takes deliberate action (in this case putting them all on the seperate program track) to do this with systems that have dedicated program outputs.
Kind of like the number of buttons on the throttle. Having to use various shift-key combinations to access everything to me is MORE difficult than having dedicated button for each function - the shift-key throttle will initially LOOK simpler because there are fewer buttons but typically will require 2-handed operation to hold a shift and press another button.
Randy,
Since you are a Digitrax user can you please answer a couple of questions? When I am running two locos consisted with my DT402. When I unplug the DT402 to move to the other side of the layout to catch up to the locos do I need to dispatch the lead loco since it is consisted with the left throttle? If so what is the procedure?
Also if I am consisting say three locos together on the DT402, lead in the right, trail in the left throttle. Do I need another throttle to run another train and keep up with it in the window?
There are some things I really like about the DT402 and the Digitrax system. For general running of two trains its very simple, no recall to keep up with like NCE. But I have not figured out how to run two consists on one throttle yet. I have also not yet spent anytime programming on the main yet with either systems but if I had to use only one throttle and only two locos to MU the DT402 might be less button pushing. What is your experience?
Thanks,
If you have the one consist running on the right knob, you can select any other loco or consist on the left knob. You cn have way more than 2 locos in a consist - if they all had to remain selected, where would they go? The last loco you added to the consist happens to be on the left knob because that's where you selected it to add to the consist, but once in consist it is controlled by the consist address.
You can dial up any loco in the consist ont he other knob, say if you want to activate sounds. If only the middle loco of a 3 unit consist has sound, you can dial up that middle unit on the left and operate the horn and bell and all that. Speed and direction cannot be controlled, the speed and direction only responds to the consist address.
To get a second consist on the left knob, you have to create a second consist on another throttle, or dispatch the current one, build a new one, and then aquire the first one on the left knob. It's akin to the process of using a UT4 to run a consist - you cna;t create consists with a UT4, but you can create then on a DT40x and then dispatch them to allow a UT4 to take control. You select the consist address to require a consist, not the address of one of the locos in that consist. The consist address can be the same as the lead loco, or it can be a completely different made up number. If you attempt to select the address of a loco that is in the middle of a consist, you get the CN display, like Steal only it's telling you the loco is in a consist and you can;t gain direct control over it, at least for speed and direction.
Randy thank you again since I am home recovering from surgery have been playing around a lot with the digitrax system your last post really helped clear up a lot of confusion. I have decided to stick with digitrax. The Dt402 does give you a lot of useful information for such a small screen. My grandaughter also handles the smaller UT4 very well to.
Steveb
Tom,
From my recent research, some NCE users can correct me if I am wrong, the SB5 is the command station/5 amp booster in one. You would use the DB5 only if you needed more power in outlying areas of a bigger layout. You don't need both in each district. One command station per layout is usually sufficient. Especially one your size. The SB5 is an updated version of the SB3a.
At 27x16 I would put a booster on each level. You could use the sb5 for one level and as a command station. Use your sb3 in booster mode for another and get a DB150 for the third.
tomcat This might be slightly off topic, but I'm in need of more info on the SB5 and the DB5 and how and if the can work together on the same layout, I am building a 3 level shelf layout in a 9 x 6 shed and will have a booster on each deck, I have a SB3a at the moment but I am unsure if I buy the DB5 or another SB3a? Also if i have the DB5 on 1 deck can I Adjust Cv's on that deck or does a locomotive have to be on the deck with an SB3a powering it ? Would love any and all feedback Tom from Oz
This might be slightly off topic, but I'm in need of more info on the SB5 and the DB5 and how and if the can work together on the same layout, I am building a 3 level shelf layout in a 9 x 6 shed and will have a booster on each deck, I have a SB3a at the moment but I am unsure if I buy the DB5 or another SB3a? Also if i have the DB5 on 1 deck can I Adjust Cv's on that deck or does a locomotive have to be on the deck with an SB3a powering it ? Would love any and all feedback Tom from Oz
If you go that route make sure you double-check with NCE to find out if the DB5s are compatible with the SB3as. You may need to upgrade your SB3a EEPROM, which turns it into a SB5; an easy fix. Would hate for you to purchase one then find out that the two don't play well together*.
*I had to do this when I upgraded my Power Cab to V1.65 a few years back. It was discovered that the firmware between the newly released Power Cab update at the time and the SB3a conflicted with one another. The replacement EEPROM for my SB3a took care of the issue. And, IIRC, NCE sent me the SB3a upgrade chip FREE.
The DB5s are daisy-chained from the Control Bus port on the front panel of the SB5s. I would think that you could program from any level on your layout but I don't know for sure. That may be something else you will want to verify when contacting NCE.
tomcatSo it should be OK to run the SB3a on the lower level, buy 2 more DB5's for the othe two decks, does anyone see any problems running this set up?
Using three boosters may be overkill but the use of one booster for each 30' x 20' level will be helpful in isolating shorts and other electrical problems.
Are you planning to further divide each level into circuit breaker protected power districts?
tomcatRich I think I will go with 4 districts on the top 2 decks, one on each side of the 4 shelf sections and there will be possibly 6-8 districts on the lower level, one in each staging , there will be 2 yards. Another district in the maintenance yards , the TT and roundhouse. I would like to find some pictures or more information on how the wiring goes from the boosters and into the different districts . Do you have photos of districts on your layout Rich ?
A pair of bus wires connect from the booster to the input side of a circuit breaker such as a PSX unit. A pair of bus wires connect from the output side of the circuit breaker to the respective power district where feeders are strung from the bus wires to the rails inside the power district.
For multiple power districts, simply daisy chain a pair of bus wires from the input side of the first circuit breaker to the input side of the other circuit breakers within that booster district. Then, connect a pair of bus wires from the output side of each additional circuit breaker to the respective power district where feeders are strung from the bus wires to the rails inside the power district.
This completes the wiring for your first booster district. Repeat the process for the second and third booster districts.
tomcatOk that seem ok. Do I need to have gaps in both rails to seperate each district if I have more than 1 district on a level?