My loco speeds at step 1 are as follows:
Athearn Genesis GP50 Tsunami: 1.6 MPH
Athesrn RTR SD45 SoundTraxx: 2.1. MPH
BLI SW1500 Paragon2: 1.6 MPH
The 1.6 is not ideal but I can live with it, but the 2.6 is not good. I was wondering what others think is the ideal? It really bugs me when I see videos of locos that jump out fast and stop suddenly. It really takes away from realism that the rest of a layout often achieves so well.
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
jwils1It really bugs me when I see videos of locos that jump out fast and stop suddenly. It really takes away from realism that the rest of a layout often achieves so well.
You and me both, Jerry. You and me both.
Personally, 1sMPH or < is my ideal and preference. For that reason I prefer decoders from Loksound, TCS, and Lenz because I can generally get that right out of the box.
I've mentioned this before on here. I have a Lenz Silver MP decoder installed in an older Walthers SW1 switcher. That little puppy will do 0.33sMPH at speed step 001.
Given a choice between sound and excellent motor control? Motor control wins hands down every time.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
One of the great virtues of DCC is the infinite ways you can customize your operating characteristics to suit your needs or desires.
Just make the changes to have your engines creep at speed step 1 if that is what you like. That is the way I prefer to set up mine.
Have Fun, Ed
I have to agree with Tom. Loksound decoders will allow a locomotive to barely creep at speed step 1 without any adjustments. In fact, I would say the speed is too low to be realistic.
Here is a Loksound Select Micro in a Grandt Line boxcab with a Hollywood Foundaries BullAnt drive:
Speed step 1 runs @ 5 seconds per tie. The drive has a gear ratio of 60:1 which is probably higher than most locomotives, but I think it proves the point that the Loksound decoders have superb low speed control.
In case you are wondering, the boxcab has a Loksound Power Pack (keep alive) in it, and the wheel sets have since been changed from code 88 to code 110 so the loco no longer drops into the frog space.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
It's interested that we strive so hard to achieve realistic operation by operating our engines using very UNrealistic methods ! A real engine does not have 128 speed steps - it has 8, and even in notch 1, it cannot crawl so slow it is barely noticeable.
If an engineer requires a VERY slow movement, the throttle is toggled between notch 1 and idle.
I know one very prominent modeller who uses 14 speed steps in all his engines. He also has a VERY high amount of acceleration and deceleration programmed into them. He has his speed table configured so really, only the first 8 steps of the 14 are utilized, so each speed step is equivalent to one notch in a real engine.
With an engine running free, notch 1 runs at a proto-typical walking pace of about 2 to 3 mph. Need to run slower ? Do as the proto-types do - alternate between 0 and 1 and allow the momentum to do its job.
Unless you've actually had the pleasure of operating a real engine, you just can't appreciate how much you need to keep alternating between notches to maintain your desired speed - it was sure an eye opener for me, and totally changed the way I run my trains.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
tstageGiven a choice between sound and excellent motor control? Motor control wins hands down every time.
I'm kind of with Tom on this but would like to have both. Thanks for all the comments received. I'm getting back into this stuff after a bit of a lapse and should have given more thought to decoder selection. But, before spending a lot of money on new decoders I'm going to play around with things and see if I can come up with a reasonable compromise.
Slow speed operation trumps sound authenticity, IMO.
- Douglas
Jerry:
Your Tsunami can be made to run very slowly but the programming is a bit complex. Check out this thread and scroll down to Selector's post:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/245846.aspx
As he indicates, it is kind of a long read.
Loksound gives you both.
All the momentum in the world and flicking the throttle like the real thing won;t fix a slow speed start issue, Regardless of the momentum, if the loco leeps into action at 3-4 SMPH, that's as slow as you will get it to go, even with maximum momentum. Once you're moving - ok. But simulated momentum doesn;t fully work like real physics - in a real train you have the weight of the train pushing you, or holding you back as soon as there's the slightest upgrade. You also have the train brake to play off the throttle and the independent. Some decoders have a brake function, but it's an on/off affair that bleeds off momentum. All power, braking, and momentum comes from the loco in the model, not the dynamics of the whole train - plus physics doesn't scale. Part of the point of all the extra speed steps for finer control is so we can simulate the motion of the real thing even if the throttle doesn't work the same way - the real thing doesn't have a rotary knob for a throttle, either. I'd rather my loco look and sound like the real thing than my control be a semi-duplicate. But if you really want a realistic control, that series of videos posted on this web site in the reader videos section on that full-function cab unit is as good as it gets. All the controls work as the prototype and the system he built manages the various controls and sends appropriate commands to the DCC system. And the on-board camera view is displayed in the windshield.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I never said it would magically make a 60's tyco diesel magically run like the real thing. If ANY engine won't start moving until it reaches two volts and any less it will stop, no decoder of any kind will cure that.
Randy - have you actually tried the method I put forth ? I'm assuming not. I have, and it replicates the functionality of the real thing quite well .... but I'm assuming you haven't tried that either ?
Best I have been able to do is about 0.7 mph. I use LokSound and Tsunami with a Power Cab.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
hon30critter Jerry: Your Tsunami can be made to run very slowly but the programming is a bit complex. Check out this thread and scroll down to Selector's post: http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/245846.aspx As he indicates, it is kind of a long read. Dave
This is what bothers me about decoders. Apparently, the ability to run at slow speeds is within the software's capability. Yet, the consumer needs to forage for a way to reveal this, and perform complex programming.
Why can't Soundtraxx just program it that way from the factory?
Just search the 'net for slow speed programming, and bunches of discussions pop up with various solutions to performance isses that arise in several brands of decoders....all solved by consumer programming. Its amazing to me that the products aren't programmed the way modeler's want them at the factory.
Doughless hon30critter Jerry: Your Tsunami can be made to run very slowly but the programming is a bit complex. Check out this thread and scroll down to Selector's post: http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/245846.aspx As he indicates, it is kind of a long read. Dave This is what bothers me about decoders. Apparently, the ability to run at slow speeds is within the software's capability. Yet, the consumer needs to forage for a way to reveal this, and perform complex programming. Why can't Soundtraxx just program it that way from the factory? Just search the 'net for slow speed programming, and bunches of discussions pop up with various solutions to performance isses that arise in several brands of decoders....all solved by consumer programming. Its amazing to me that the products aren't programmed the way modeler's want them at the factory.
Because every motor is different and requires different parameters to operate best. What is an ideal setting for a kato motor is not ideal for an Athearn - and which AThearn? Genesis and RTR each have different motors. What about Atlas motors?
TCS BEMF self adjusts - no realy need to mess with CVs. The loco runs a little odd for the first few feet and that's it. Loksound has a self adjustment as well, but you need to trigger it. You also need a good bit of open track as it will run the loco up to speed and back as it determines the best settings. The ESU Lokpilot for non-sound has the same thing. So stick with those decoders and you won't have to fiddle with 2-3 CVs to tweak motor performance. A better question might be, why don't all the manufacturers incorporate an automatic setup?
Mark R. I never said it would magically make a 60's tyco diesel magically run like the real thing. If ANY engine won't start moving until it reaches two volts and any less it will stop, no decoder of any kind will cure that. Randy - have you actually tried the method I put forth ? I'm assuming not. I have, and it replicates the functionality of the real thing quite well .... but I'm assuming you haven't tried that either ? Mark.
Actually i DO run somewhat like that, just not all out. I just don't cut the speed steps down to match the prototype, I like my 128 step fine control. But on moving a train - step 1 to stretch the slack, then open and close the throttle (with momentum on in the decoder) to get to a desired speed gradually. The ballastic tracking of the Digitrax encoders serves to effectively reduce the number of speed steps while accelerating (and while deccelerating as well) but once I get running at the proper speed I don't constantly tweak the throttle. My last two layouts had no grades, and the club layout only has one of any consequence, but I don;t keep the BEMF turned up so high that the train will cruise at constant speed regardless of the grade, it will slow going up unless I add throttle. When stopping I do a similar thing, kill the throttle and slow down by the momentum setting then reopen the throttle to the lower speed setting.
Yes I've been in the cab of a working locomotive, and yes I know how the things really operate, although it was a much more modern unit than any I model (SD50m), and yes, I was still one when we did switching and rearranged the train for the trip home - which was the real eye opener. On the main, there wasn't much throttle manipulation, and increase to maintain speed upgrade, cut back to avoid going too fast down, air as needed. But switching the train - this is where we went from idle to notch 3 or 4 then back to idle. This was the highest seniority engineer on the railroad, because it was a passenger special and the owner of the railroad was on in his private car with friends and family, and even the switching was incredibly smooth and precise. From my side I could see the crew on the ground doing the guiding, but there was barely a bump as we coupled up, then a quick pull to verify the latch. Then we were uncoupled from the car we just spotted and zipped ahead so the guys on the ground could throw the next switch. It's why I hate the remote control couplers on the MTH locos, they don't close unless you slam into the standing train and that's just plain wrong. It's more fun and challenging to couple up without moving cars that roll on very free rolling wheels and without stopping 6 inches ahead and using the tie to tie creep speed to get there.
If I had the space I'd love to build a full size cab mockup like that and truly operate with actual controls - though mine would be an RS-3 cab not an F unit. Or maybe a Baldwin switcher - those 20 notch air throttles operated completely differently.
rrinker Because every motor is different and requires different parameters to operate best. What is an ideal setting for a kato motor is not ideal for an Athearn - and which AThearn? Genesis and RTR each have different motors. What about Atlas motors? TCS BEMF self adjusts - no realy need to mess with CVs. The loco runs a little odd for the first few feet and that's it. Loksound has a self adjustment as well, but you need to trigger it. You also need a good bit of open track as it will run the loco up to speed and back as it determines the best settings. The ESU Lokpilot for non-sound has the same thing. So stick with those decoders and you won't have to fiddle with 2-3 CVs to tweak motor performance. A better question might be, why don't all the manufacturers incorporate an automatic setup? --Randy
Good points Randy, but factory equipped OEM locomotives suffer from the same slow speed problem. Certainly Soundtraxx could program its decoders for the various brands of locos...Walthers/Proto coming to mind as a major brand for Tsunami.
Yes, I could see where self adjusting capability would be a plus.
That would cost extra. They are already saving money by using stripped down versions of the Tsunami. And since they probably just drop ship cases of decoders to the factory in China, there's no real opportunity to program them.
wow, internet issues from the storm, said it never posted, then ends up with duplicates.
I've never had a DCC system that showed what speed step you were on, so never really worried about it. For sound equipped diesels, it's often more realistic if it can't start on the early speed steps. That way, you hear the sound of the engine(s) revving up before the locomotive moves, like the real ones do.
Doughless hon30critter Jerry: Your Tsunami can be made to run very slowly but the programming is a bit complex. Check out this thread and scroll down to Selector's post: http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/245846.aspx As he indicates, it is kind of a long read. Dave This is what bothers me about decoders. Apparently, the ability to run at slow speeds is within the software's capability. Yet, the consumer needs to forage for a way to reveal this, and perform complex programming.
That's generally true for Soundtraxx but not for Loksound, TCS, and Lenz.
wjstix I've never had a DCC system that showed what speed step you were on, so never really worried about it. For sound equipped diesels, it's often more realistic if it can't start on the early speed steps. That way, you hear the sound of the engine(s) revving up before the locomotive moves, like the real ones do.
That's what momentum is for, except with (once again) Tsunamis that don;t even start the prime mover until speed step 1. And one wonders why I dislike them so much...
With momentum set to some non-zero value, I can simulate a lightly loaded engine (no revving) by turning the knob slowly. Or I can simulate a heavily loaded train by cranking it open to get moving and then throttle back, and all the while the loco slowly accelerates.
You're right Randy, Loksound sure does give you both. Just got a new Intermountain SD40-2 with a Loksound Select decoder. First time on the track it did about 0.7 mph and the sound is terrific. I'm sold. Still going to play around with my Soundtraxx and Tsunami but if I can't get the Soundtraxx to improve I may have to change it out to Loksound.