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Loksound F8 Prime Mover sound issues

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Loksound F8 Prime Mover sound issues
Posted by 5150WS6 on Saturday, November 21, 2015 9:05 PM

Hi guys,

Just purchased two new Kato C44-9W SP's with factory installed Loksound decoders.  I'm somewhat new to DCC and this one has me completely stumped.  Here's the problem I'm hoping some of you veterans can help me with.

I have two locos on the track. #1 and #2.  Track is powered.  I hit F8 to start the prime mover sound on unit #1.  Then on my NCE controller, I switch to unit #2.  I hit F8 to start that prime mover sound.  Both do start up sequence and settle into a nice ide. 

Now comes the issue.  When I use the controller to switch back to unit #1, the prime mover goes immediately into shut down mode and starts the shut down sequence.  Not just turns off.  But the shut down sequence.....almost like I had hit F8 again.

This happens if I have another loco on the track or not.  I can have one loco on the track, switch loco numbers on my controller then come back to that loco and it shuts down. 

I have no idea why or what the heck is going on.  Does anyone have ANY ideas I could try?

I have the Loksound programmer and can adjust anything easily as far as CV's but can't figure out what needs to change here.  HELP!

Thanks guys,

Mike

 

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Posted by Mark R. on Sunday, November 22, 2015 9:54 AM

I don't have NCE, so I'm speculating here ....

Does the throttle remember functions that were turned on when you access a previous engine ?

For example - you access engine 1 and turn on F8. You then go to engine 2 and turn on F8. When you return to engine 1, is F8 still turned on ?

I know some systems will remember function setting when you re-access the engine, while others will have all functions set to off when you go back to them. If that's the case, when you go back to an engine and all the functions are re-set to off, the decoder sees that F8 is off and goes into shut down sequence.

If that is the case with your NCE system, I'm not sure if there is a setting you can change for it to "remember" previously set function positions or not. This is not a problem with the decoder per se.

Mark.

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Posted by 5150WS6 on Sunday, November 22, 2015 10:43 PM

Thanks for the thought Mark.  I have hit up NCE to see if there is some sort of setting there. 

I saw another guy post something similar.....that his prime mover was shutting down but he was still getting the "ticking" noise of the bleeder valve or something of the GE loco's.  Mine is the same issue.  Still get that cool ticking noise.  Just motor sounds shut off.


Hopefully NCE can come back with something for an answer.  Someone mentioned changing CV 124 to a 6 but I can't find anything that confirms that.  And I love the way the loco acts, reacts and runs with the sound as is.  So I'm changing nothing until I have solid proof I won't be jacking anything up!

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Posted by gmpullman on Monday, November 23, 2015 8:00 PM

I had the very same issue just last night. After running a consisted pair of Intermountain F-7s with Loksound Selects I decided to simply program the trailing engine to the same number as the lead engine.

The problem was, F8 would kill one while firing up the other, didn't matter if I had the wheels off the rails when I turned on or off F8, it would just toggle.

I have a Digitrax DCS 200. I have been running probably two-dozen different Loksound Select engines over the past two years or so and last night was the first time I've ever encountered this. I have several A-B-B-A sets all programmed to the lead engine number and never had any issues.

I haven't done it yet but what I'll do is reprogram the address back to the original road number, hit F8 once on that engine, then program back to the MU paired address numbers. That should clear things up.

Good Luck, Ed

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Posted by Mark R. on Monday, November 23, 2015 8:16 PM

gmpullman

I had the very same issue just last night. After running a consisted pair of Intermountain F-7s with Loksound Selects I decided to simply program the trailing engine to the same number as the lead engine.

The problem was, F8 would kill one while firing up the other, didn't matter if I had the wheels off the rails when I turned on or off F8, it would just toggle.

I have a Digitrax DCS 200. I have been running probably two-dozen different Loksound Select engines over the past two years or so and last night was the first time I've ever encountered this. I have several A-B-B-A sets all programmed to the lead engine number and never had any issues.

I haven't done it yet but what I'll do is reprogram the address back to the original road number, hit F8 once on that engine, then program back to the MU paired address numbers. That should clear things up.

Good Luck, Ed

 

Ed, sounds like F8 is functioning opposite on one of the engines. (?) When you place the engine on the rails, does it start up by itself, or is it silent until you turn F8 on to start it ? Does the second engine work the same way ?

Mark.

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Posted by gmpullman on Monday, November 23, 2015 8:39 PM

Mark,

The thing that I found unusual was the decoders "remembering" the F8 command.

In the past F8 would toggle sound on or off unrelated to F8 being on or off. Like Randy mentions about MTH Protosound. All I would simply do is lift one engine's wheels off the rails and toggle F8 and everything would be back in synch.

So as I mentioned, last night I decided to make some consist changes and took a pair of Fs that had been MUed by universal consisting. I broke that up then readdressed the trailing unit and set the NDOT to reverse.

After a few minutes of running I realized one unit was silent. Simple fix, I thought. Lift it off the rails, hit F8 once and place it back on the rails... no go. Now the other unit is silent. (I realize the OP's problem is slightly different since he has two different addresses) but the odd thing is, since he posted his problem, I was surprised that I was experiencing the (almost) same thing. F8 toggles the prime mover. I don't know why it is not programmed so that F8 on = sound on/F8 off = sound off?

Normally, when I power-up the rails the prime mover on all my Loksound engines comes on. If I want to mute them I have to select their address and either turn F8 ON or OFF depending on the current status of F8. If I briefly turn off the track power and back on again, the standing engines will go back to idle (sound on) then I have to go through the muting sequence again, turning F8 on or off as needed.

I'm sure there are customizable CVs to choose (by default BLI engines stay quiet until the address is called up) but I just have not found the time to sit down and do all the tweaking of CVs that I'd like to do (speed matching, for one!) I have the Lokprogrammer, too, but so far I'm only scratching the surface of its use.

Go figure... Ed

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Posted by maxman on Monday, November 23, 2015 9:00 PM

5150WS6
When I use the controller to switch back to unit #1, the prime mover goes immediately into shut down mode and starts the shut down sequence. Not just turns off. But the shut down sequence.....almost like I had hit F8 again.

Just out of curiosity, when you switch from one unit to the other are you "recalling" the second unit from the recall stack or are you "selecting loco" and entering the unit number again?

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Posted by maxman on Monday, November 23, 2015 9:06 PM

gmpullman
Normally, when I power-up the rails the prime mover on all my Loksound engines comes on.

From reading the Loksound Yahoo Group forum it is my understanding that aftermarket Loksound decoders (Select style) come with the default set such that the motor does not start on power up, but factory installed decoders are set to start up on power up because "that was what was specified" but the loco maker.

There is a CV that can be changed to change this, but I don't know which one at this particular moment.

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Posted by Mark R. on Monday, November 23, 2015 9:28 PM

gmpullman

Mark,

The thing that I found unusual was the decoders "remembering" the F8 command.

In the past F8 would toggle sound on or off unrelated to F8 being on or off. Like Randy mentions about MTH Protosound. All I would simply do is lift one engine's wheels off the rails and toggle F8 and everything would be back in synch.

So as I mentioned, last night I decided to make some consist changes and took a pair of Fs that had been MUed by universal consisting. I broke that up then readdressed the trailing unit and set the NDOT to reverse.

After a few minutes of running I realized one unit was silent. Simple fix, I thought. Lift it off the rails, hit F8 once and place it back on the rails... no go. Now the other unit is silent. (I realize the OP's problem is slightly different since he has two different addresses) but the odd thing is, since he posted his problem, I was surprised that I was experiencing the (almost) same thing. F8 toggles the prime mover. I don't know why it is not programmed so that F8 on = sound on/F8 off = sound off?

Normally, when I power-up the rails the prime mover on all my Loksound engines comes on. If I want to mute them I have to select their address and either turn F8 ON or OFF depending on the current status of F8. If I briefly turn off the track power and back on again, the standing engines will go back to idle (sound on) then I have to go through the muting sequence again, turning F8 on or off as needed.

I'm sure there are customizable CVs to choose (by default BLI engines stay quiet until the address is called up) but I just have not found the time to sit down and do all the tweaking of CVs that I'd like to do (speed matching, for one!) I have the Lokprogrammer, too, but so far I'm only scratching the surface of its use.

Go figure... Ed

 

Ed - As you mentioned, a lot of factory installed Loksound decoders are configured so that they start up as soon as they see power on the rails. In this configuration, the prime mover starts up with F8 turned off. To put it into shut down, you turn F8 on. F8 also functions as a mute button as well - by turning F8 on in any throttle position except zero.

Conversely, Loksound aftermarket decoders are configured to be silent upon power up. You turn on F8 to get the prime mover to start and turn F8 off to go into shut down. Turning F8 off in any speed step except 0 will mute the sound.

Almost sounds like you have one of each. (?)

CV403 (with register CV31=16 and CV32=2) controls which way F8 functions. With CV403 set to 32, it will start as soon as it sees power on the rails. With CV403 set to 16, you have to turn F8 on to get the sound to start.

Mark.

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Posted by 5150WS6 on Tuesday, November 24, 2015 9:23 AM

I am not using the recall feature.  I know that is an option but I don't overly care for it much.  I don't want to have to log all 18 locos on the layout into that.  Especially since it only holds 6.  Not that I run that many.  But I want to be able to point to a loco, put in it's number and run it.  And not have the other one shut off and go into sleep mode.  I understand the recall feature and that it would work without much issue, but like I said.  It's not my favorite.

Mike

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Posted by gmpullman on Tuesday, November 24, 2015 9:39 AM

Thanks for the CV information, Mark! I looked through the ESU user manual for CV settings for prime mover muting options but nothing jumped out at me.

http://www.esu.eu/en/downloads/instruction-manuals/digital-decoders/

If I recall correctly, these were two installs that I did on a pair of BLI Blueline F-7s that I got tired of messing around with the dual decoder thing.

I'll report back when I get a chance to play with the CVs you provided. If nothing else, I can always do a factory reset and use the Lokprogrammer to customize both engines to the same settings.

Thanks again, Ed

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Posted by maxman on Tuesday, November 24, 2015 1:34 PM

I'm still curious if you are recalling the locos from the recall stack or selecting them as new.

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Posted by 5150WS6 on Tuesday, November 24, 2015 1:41 PM

Maxman-

Sorry forgot to reply.  I am selecting them as new.  I have the recall option that works ok, I just don't care for it.  I don't want to be limited to 6 locos. 

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Posted by maxman on Tuesday, November 24, 2015 4:13 PM

5150WS6
Sorry forgot to reply. I am selecting them as new. I have the recall option that works ok, I just don't care for it. I don't want to be limited to 6 locos.

The reason I asked was that I was wondering if the same problem would occur if you recalled the loco instead of entering it as a new unit.  If you can try that, I'd appreciate knowing what happens.

 

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Posted by 5150WS6 on Tuesday, November 24, 2015 4:23 PM
Let me double check tonight. But I'm almost positive things worked fine in recall mode.....I'll let you know in a few hours.
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Posted by 5150WS6 on Tuesday, November 24, 2015 8:36 PM

OK, so I tried things tonight.  NCE had me try to change in the master directory something about 'Function Refresh Enable."  Did that and still no dice.

To answer your question though as much as I hate it, things work perfectly in recall mode.  I don't understand what the difference is with recall or just typing in and selecting a loco.  That's just my inexperience talking there though.

So still at square one.  Shuts down when I select but works when I recall.

Thoughts?

 

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Posted by Mark R. on Tuesday, November 24, 2015 9:12 PM

I think the guys on the NCE Yahoo Group have pretty much covered all your options ....

Mark.

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Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, November 24, 2015 9:37 PM

 Sounds like this is an NCE 'feature' where if you select a loco from scratch, it sets all functions to off, but if you use recall, it sets them to however they were previously. Try it with the headlight and see if the headlight goes off when you reselect the loco, but stays on if you pull it back from the recall stack.

 Digitrax may do the same thing, except that if you already have F8 turned on, the loco will never be purged from the command station's slot table, so in effect it always remembers the function state. I suppose I could test this by using JMRI to purge the slot used by the Loksound loco and then select it on the throttle and see if it shuts down. The problem with F4 and the MTH locos isn;t quite the same - the problem is MTH set it up as a toggle, not a function on = loco started up, function off = loco shut down like Loksound, so there I have to lift the one that's 'running' off the rails, send and F4 to start up the one that went silent, and then put the running one back on the track. If they were more like Loksound, or at least had a setting to power back up in previous state, there actually wouldn;t be a problem with them.

                                --Randy

 


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Posted by 5150WS6 on Tuesday, November 24, 2015 10:50 PM

Mark-
Yeah, I threw out multiple lines hoping someone would come up with the answer.  They are getting into it pretty good over there. 

Randy-

Unfortunately it only does it with the prime mover sound.  I can run lights, ditch even get the loco crawling.....it remembers everything but the fact that prime mover.  Drives me mental!  LOL!

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Posted by maxman on Wednesday, November 25, 2015 12:08 AM

5150WS6
To answer your question though as much as I hate it, things work perfectly in recall mode. I don't understand what the difference is with recall or just typing in and selecting a loco.

I had a similar experience with a set of consisted locos.  Select the first loco and start the motor (F8) and turn on the headlight, select the second loco and turn on the motor and turn on the headlight.  Run set around.

Then I parked the consisted units and selected a different loco.  Ran that around.  Then re-selected the consisted units.  The second I pressed enter after making the selection the motor stopped and had to be restarted.  I believe that only one of the consisted unit's motors stopped.

Note that I was using a throttle that had a rheostat, not an encoder (one of the dummy throttles).  I think with an encoder throttle this didn't happen.

Matt from Loksound was there to watch all this happen.  I think it has something to do with the fact that the encoders don't really have an off position, but just remember where they were the last time they were used, where as the rheostat throttle has to be "off" when you select the loco so all the functions revert to where they were before the F8 was pressed.  However, as you noted, this all just seems to affect the functions, not the motor drive.

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Posted by maxman on Wednesday, November 25, 2015 12:26 AM

5150WS6
Yeah, I threw out multiple lines hoping someone would come up with the answer. They are getting into it pretty good over there.

I went and looked at the NCE group info.  I'm afraid that I don't think belaboring the point about whether it is a ProCab or a PowerCab gets anyone anywhere.

From what I have read, you are using the ProCab to operate your locos, and you don't want to use the recall function.  If I may make a suggestion, see if you can borrow one of the non-programming throttles.  Make sure you borrow one with an encoder, not a rheostat,  Try that and see if you still have the "problem".

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Posted by 5150WS6 on Wednesday, November 25, 2015 3:08 PM

Well I'm working with Matt at ESU now.  I pointed out something else that I hadn't thought about to him. 

I have two other locos with Loksounds.  SD70M's.  And looking at the cards in the SD70's and the ones in the new C44 locos, they look identical.  Up to the point of having the same ink pen markings on the shrink wrap.

What is weird is I don't have this problem with the SD70's!  So it's a setting.  I think it is fixable or adjustable.  So tonight I'm going to copy the settings from my SD70M and the new C44-9W's and Matt is going to compare which of the CV's are different and which could be causing the problems.

 

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Posted by maxman on Wednesday, November 25, 2015 3:14 PM

5150WS6
So it's a setting. I think it is fixable or adjustable.

Please be sure to report back.  The Select decoder that I was describing with a similar issue was for a RS3.

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Posted by 5150WS6 on Wednesday, November 25, 2015 3:30 PM
I will most certainly keep everyone posted. ;)
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Posted by maxman on Saturday, August 12, 2017 7:49 PM

5150WS6
I will most certainly keep everyone posted. ;)
 

 
5150WS6:
 
Did you ever get this solved?
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Posted by 5150WS6 on Sunday, August 13, 2017 9:24 AM

Maxman,

I did not. After much talking with Matt at Loksound it seems it's something they are working on. 

The only solution was if I used the recall button after programming both locos into it. Then it will allow me to switch between locos without one shutting off. 

This was a bit ago and I haven't checked with Matt to see if it has been updated or not as of yet.

Mike

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Posted by rrinker on Sunday, August 13, 2017 12:27 PM

 There is I believe some sort of configuration in NCE as to which functions are refreshed when a loco is active but not the selected loco - as you are doing. I do not have this same issue switching back and forth between locos with my Digitrax equipment, because the loco remains active unless you specifically clear it from the command station (the dispatch proceedure you see mentioned for Digitrax). Selecting an already active loco on the throttle merely reconnects the command station 'slot' holding that loco to your throttle, allowing you to take control. It would appear that with NCE, selecting the loco (not using recall) sets it up in the command station as a fresh loco even though it was previous selected. Using recall returns it to the previous state which is why that works for you.

 Another reason why I don't like 'recall' being an item on DCC system comparisons. Digitrax has a recall stack, but it's not needed for the same purpose as it is on say NCE. 

                        --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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