I have read web pages and the instructions that come with Peco turnouts regarding wiring to make them DCC friendly. I am still uncertain as to what needs to be done if anything. It is shown that jumpers need to be cut and extra feeders added. As a test I took one turnout out of the package, put insulated joiners in place and ran feeders to each leg of track. I test ran two different locos without having any problems. My turnouts will all be manually operated on a shelf layout. Do I need to make any modifications? Any voices of experience would be welcomed and appreciated. Thanks.
Do you have the below site? Hope it is not too much info.
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_peco.htm#a2
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
That Wiring for DCC web site is an excellent source of information.
For some very good visuals on the Electrofrog, check out these two links:
http://railwaybobsmodulebuildingtips.blogspot.ca/2013/01/the-peco-electrofrog-circuitry.html
http://railwaybobsmodulebuildingtips.blogspot.ca/2013/01/the-peco-electrofrog-modifications.html
When you use an Electrofrog in DCC, adding insulated rail joiners at the ends of a turnout will effectively prevent shorts. Actually, just placing insulated rail joiners on the inside (frog) rails will be sufficient to prevent shorts.
Alton Junction
Technically, you don't have to do anything other than use insulated joiners on the frog rails/ Two turnouts connected frog to frog - both rails need insulated joiners, but if you follow the frog rails get insualted joiners for both of them, when you go to connect them you will find you already have insulated joined in both rails.
The modifications of cutting the jumpers and seperately powering the frog, along with adding the jumpers between the stock rails and closure rails, greatly improve reliability long term, but are not absolutely required. Unless you add a microswitch, or use Frog Juicers, there will be no way to power the frogs if you are just throwing them by hand. If you are using a manual mechanism, like a Bluepoint, Bullfrog, or a DIY slide switch, then you will have contacts to use for frog power even without powered switch machines.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Actually, interesting thought - I prefer to prevent shorts rather than react to them, but if you hook a Tam Valley Frog Juicer to the frogs of Electrofrogs, you don't have to make any modifications and they will still be reliable (and not rely on the point to stock rail contact for power flow). Still need the insualted joiners on the frog diverging rails (and I just picked some up, the Peco ones are VERY tiny and unobtrusive, not like those big Atlas ones). If you move the throwbar by hand, when it contacts the opposite stock rail, the Frog Juicer will instantly flip the frog polarity to match. With the stock jumpers, this feeds the frog and the closure rails and the point rails, only the point rails could be considered questionable since it's a hinge joint and could potentially stop making good contact after many many operations. A small piece of flexible wire bridging each closure rail to the point rail will solve that. And you get to keep the Peco spring in place so you don;t have to install so much as a switch stand, just use your fingers or an uncoupler skewer to push the points in the right direction. Downside is the Hex Frog Juicer is $80.
rrinker The modifications of cutting the jumpers and seperately powering the frog, along with adding the jumpers between the stock rails and closure rails, greatly improve reliability long term, but are not absolutely required.
The modifications of cutting the jumpers and seperately powering the frog, along with adding the jumpers between the stock rails and closure rails, greatly improve reliability long term, but are not absolutely required.
I understand what you are saying about cutting the jumpers and separately powering the frog, but how does that improve reliability?
richhotrainI understand what you are saying about cutting the jumpers and separately powering the frog, but how does that improve reliability?
I still have a handful of 1990s Walthers Code 83 power routing (Shinohara) turnouts on my layout and these rely on the point contacting the stock rail with the addition of a flimsy bronze strip to help the electrical continuity. These corrode easily and after a short time will not conduct electricity reliably. I only have them on seldom used stub sidings.
There was a time when I used the Tortoise contacts to supplement the point contact but the problem here is that if they are not timed exactly (The Tortoise makes before the point contact breaks) you have a short. This became a real pain especially if the points got sticky. Some users said to pry the bronze contact strip out but that still didn't help eliminate the problem alltogether.
So you had to isolate the frog and power it separately, cutting gaps on the diverging rails. The frog Juicer really helped cure this but for the most part I just got rid of the power routing turnouts and went with the "all live" turnout (AKA DCC friendly)
I don't know what Peco uses to help electrical continuity at the points but this is where you can lose power unless you keep the back of the point clean and keep them tight against the stock rails.
Ed
Thanks, Ed. If that is Randy's point, then it is a lack of reliability with the power routing function rather than an issue with the frog itself. I use Peco Insulfrogs on my layout, so I will defer to Randy and others as to the reliability of the Peco Electrofrog. Although the frog is dead (plastic) on the Insulfrog, the power routing function is highly reliable. In fact, I have never had a failure.
Peco Electrofrogs won;t have the problem of the make before break on the non-DCC Friendly versions of the Walthers - they have problems because both point rails are tied together. Electrofrogs already have the point and closure rails isolated from one another, even though by default the entire assembly takes the same polarity, this doesn't happen until the point rail contacts the adjacent stock rail.
The problem is strictly reliability. If you simply add the required insulated joiners at the frog rails and do nothing else, the only thing that powers the point, closure, and frog is the conact of the point rail against the stock rail. How long will it take that part to become dirty and not make good contact? That's why you would still apply power to the wire that comes attached to the frog.
And if you cut the jumpers from the frog to the closure rails, now the frog is completely isolated and definitely needs power. The point and closure rails still rely on the point contact, which is why, at least on the Code 83 Electrofrogs, there is another area along the closure rails where the plastic is cleared so you can solder jumpers to the adjacent stock rails, now making the turnout fully DCC Friendly as well as givng it reliable power pickup paths. The last are for attention is the point hinge, which again is still only a mechanical contact between two pieces of rail. For ultimate reliability these should be jumpered with short lengths of flexible wire. Now every part of the turnout has a hard wired power source and no part is relying on a mechanical contact that might become dirty or otherwise stop conducting current. There is a method to this madness. The point hinge bypass also applies to Atlas turnouts, which are otherwise DCC Friendly as the come (Custom Line anyway). Or any turnout with hinged points. Only an all-rail turnout such as you'd get by building Fast Tracks and instructed are immune from this weakness.
rrinker The last are for attention is the point hinge, which again is still only a mechanical contact between two pieces of rail. For ultimate reliability these should be jumpered with short lengths of flexible wire. Now every part of the turnout has a hard wired power source and no part is relying on a mechanical contact that might become dirty or otherwise stop conducting current. There is a method to this madness. The point hinge bypass also applies to Atlas turnouts, which are otherwise DCC Friendly as the come (Custom Line anyway). Or any turnout with hinged points. Only an all-rail turnout such as you'd get by building Fast Tracks and instructed are immune from this weakness.
The last are for attention is the point hinge, which again is still only a mechanical contact between two pieces of rail. For ultimate reliability these should be jumpered with short lengths of flexible wire. Now every part of the turnout has a hard wired power source and no part is relying on a mechanical contact that might become dirty or otherwise stop conducting current. There is a method to this madness. The point hinge bypass also applies to Atlas turnouts, which are otherwise DCC Friendly as the come (Custom Line anyway). Or any turnout with hinged points. Only an all-rail turnout such as you'd get by building Fast Tracks and instructed are immune from this weakness.
Many thanks to all of you for the helpful information. I may set up a test track again and run all my locos through to see what happens. Right out of the box everything may be fine but as pointed out wear and tear and dirt could be a future problem. I'd sure hate to have to remove a turnout and modify it later.
I recently purchased another Peco turnout. I just noticed that printed on the back of the package is "There is no need to modify any PECO turnout for DCC use" Just like that. In bold italics. But they do go on to say that there is the option to switch the frog independently for greater reliability.
Maybe I should have just built a layout for my 1956 American Flyer? Two wires and off it goes !
Thanks again for the help.
TooTall606 Maybe I should have just built a layout for my 1956 American Flyer? Two wires and off it goes !
AC doesn;t buy you anything. It's three rail that makes everything super simple - no worries about reverse loops, detection for signalling is ridiculously easy. 2 rail, regardless of the type of power used, always has the reverse loop problem. AC, DCC, DC, all the same with 2 rails.
rrinker AC doesn;t buy you anything.
AC doesn;t buy you anything.
rrinker2 rail, regardless of the type of power used, always has the reverse loop problem. AC, DCC, DC, all the same with 2 rails.
Even if it is a trolley layout with the overhead powered?
That's a third rail. Just like outside third rail, popular in the early days, or inside third rail like Lionel and Marklin.
gmpullman richhotrain I understand what you are saying about cutting the jumpers and separately powering the frog, but how does that improve reliability? I still have a handful of 1990s Walthers Code 83 power routing (Shinohara) turnouts on my layout and these rely on the point contacting the stock rail with the addition of a flimsy bronze strip to help the electrical continuity. These corrode easily and after a short time will not conduct electricity reliably. I only have them on seldom used stub sidings. There was a time when I used the Tortoise contacts to supplement the point contact but the problem here is that if they are not timed exactly (The Tortoise makes before the point contact breaks) you have a short. This became a real pain especially if the points got sticky. Some users said to pry the bronze contact strip out but that still didn't help eliminate the problem alltogether. So you had to isolate the frog and power it separately, cutting gaps on the diverging rails. The frog Juicer really helped cure this but for the most part I just got rid of the power routing turnouts and went with the "all live" turnout (AKA DCC friendly) I don't know what Peco uses to help electrical continuity at the points but this is where you can lose power unless you keep the back of the point clean and keep them tight against the stock rails. Ed
richhotrain I understand what you are saying about cutting the jumpers and separately powering the frog, but how does that improve reliability?
I too have a bunch of Walthers/Shinohara turnouts of that vintage, some of which are installed on the layout I am currently rehabilitating. There is an article in the current MR about modifying these older turnouts to work more effectively in the dcc environment; it involves removing the connectors between the point rails and other mods, and seems best done on the bench in order to wire the jumpers underneath the turnout.
I'm wondering if there's a way of doing similar modifications in situ, in place on the layout where they are installed, without having to remove them to replace the throw bars etc? any thoughts on that? I'm afraid of disturbing the "layout rigor mortis" that I'm sure has fixed things in place for the past 20 years, and it would be nice to leave Tortoises and everything else where they are at the moment.
I'm now buying Peco insulfrogs in anticipation of expanding the layout, but I've got probably two dozen of the Shinoharas, which work fine otherwise, and it would seem a shame to waste them. Right now the five or six that I have wired up are doing okay, I only have one that has a short somewhere that I'm trying to figure out.
Jim
If it's the short that happens because the Tortoise contact switches polarity before the throwbar has moved the previously closed switch point off the stock rail, you can try better aligning the Tortoise. Or modify it. Easiest though without taking anything out would be to add a microswitch or two either at the Tortise where it would get bumped by the actuator arm (just glue right to the Tortoise) or when it can be activated by the throwbar, and use that for the frog powering. This way, power would be removed as soon as the Tortoise started moving, and not reapply until it finished moving.
If it's the short caused by the back of a wheel brusing the open point rail, not much you can do other than make sure the wheels on the offending car or loco are properly in gauge. If they are, it's probably turnout surgery time. You MIGHT be able to do all the work from the top, it just will be harder to get in there and replace the throwbar. The extra feeders can be soldered on from the top just like any other feeders.
Has anyone used the Blue Point manual control?
http://www.ppw-aline.com/Blue_Point_Manual_Turnout_Control.htm
rrinker If it's the short that happens because the Tortoise contact switches polarity before the throwbar has moved the previously closed switch point off the stock rail, you can try better aligning the Tortoise. Or modify it. Easiest though without taking anything out would be to add a microswitch or two either at the Tortise where it would get bumped by the actuator arm (just glue right to the Tortoise) or when it can be activated by the throwbar, and use that for the frog powering. This way, power would be removed as soon as the Tortoise started moving, and not reapply until it finished moving. If it's the short caused by the back of a wheel brusing the open point rail, not much you can do other than make sure the wheels on the offending car or loco are properly in gauge. If they are, it's probably turnout surgery time. You MIGHT be able to do all the work from the top, it just will be harder to get in there and replace the throwbar. The extra feeders can be soldered on from the top just like any other feeders. --Randy
Randy, thanks for this. After sleeping on it I think I'm going to go ahead and attempt the turnout surgery, this is as good a place to start as any. I ordered some of the throwbar crossties from Clover House last night (recommended in the MR article), and I'll just cut the switch out and make the modifications and see how it goes. Worse comes to worse, I can get replacement #8 Shinoharas on ebay for 20 bucks, so if I screw it up I'll just replace the turnout entirely.
The other thing I'm working through with these is learning how to use the NCE Switch8 Mk2. Only problem with that though is I think the output select isn't working, even though I can program the individual Tortoises from the Powercab using the default factory addresses. I just can't give them unique addresses. If it's not one thing it's another. I've got an email into NCE to see if perhaps I've done something wrong or if I'm overlooking something. They are a little over an hour away, so if I have to bring it to them to have it looked at I'm hoping they'll let me do that.