I am adding a 4 track stub end yard to my ho scale layout. Using Peco electro-frog power routing #6 turnouts on the ladder. Do I need to gap the inside rails by the frogs or just use metal joiners? I was not sure that stacking several turnouts together like this would create a problem or not. I have done a mock up of how the turnouts would be arranged, then try and trace the polarity according to how the points are set to determine if there would be a short. I am getting confused so might go ahead and wire up a mock up to learn more about wiring methods. On other areas of my layout I have placed insulated joiners on both the inside rails coming off the frog. Have one crossover set of turnouts set up like this and have no shorts.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Bryan B.
For a stub-end yard, no gaps required. Depending on how the points are set, you will have one powered track, the first one into which you can move cars from the ladder. All the others will have the same polarity (or phase, for DCC) on both rails. There's no way to get a short unless there's something between the rails that shouldn't be (like a Kadee coupler gauge)
Why am I so sure? I have been operating a four track stub yard with hot frog handlaid turnouts for seven years now. It's the local freight staging yard at Nonomura.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
tomikawaTT For a stub-end yard, no gaps required. Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
For a stub-end yard, no gaps required.
This is only true if you feed power in from the point end of the first turnout on the ladder. If you add power feeders anywhere else in the yard, you will get a short somewhere.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
tomikawaTT For a stub-end yard, no gaps required. Depending on how the points are set, you will have one powered track, the first one into which you can move cars from the ladder. All the others will have the same polarity (or phase, for DCC) on both rails. There's no way to get a short unless there's something between the rails that shouldn't be....
For a stub-end yard, no gaps required. Depending on how the points are set, you will have one powered track, the first one into which you can move cars from the ladder. All the others will have the same polarity (or phase, for DCC) on both rails. There's no way to get a short unless there's something between the rails that shouldn't be....
That's not necessarily true.
If the turnout leading into the ladder is a Peco Electrofrog, without a gap on the inside stock rail, there will be a dead short on the mainline when the turnout is thrown to the divergent (ladder) route.
Power routing is not the issue, per se. It is the powered frog that needs to be considered. When the Electrofrog is thrown to divergent, without a gap on the mainline route, both mainline rails will be powered with the same polarity, so a connection to the adjacent mainline track will cause a dead short since the adjacent mainline tracks are powered. Power routing will route power but it will not kill power to the rest of the layout. That's why one or even two insulating gaps are almost always required on an Electrofrog.
In the case of a stub end siding, no gaps may be required on the ladder turnouts but, even then, that is only true if the connecting yard tracks are not powered by feeders.
On a DCC layout, a stub end yard really ought to be constructed with Insulfrogs, not Electrofrogs. Electrofrogs make sense on a DC layout so you can leave locos parked on unpowered tracks. No need to do that in DCC.
Take a look at this photo from Railway Bob's website.
That clearly illustrates the problem with an unmodified Peco Electrofrog leading into a yard ladder from the mainline.
Here is a link to Railway Bob's website.
http://railwaybobsmodulebuildingtips.blogspot.ca/2013/01/the-peco-electrofrog-circuitry.html
Rich
Alton Junction
LOL
Elmer, why did I know that 16 hours later, two of us would respond simultaneously to the same issue with the same answer. Great minds truly think alike! But your more succint reply beat out mine, although I want to claim that my verbose reply was started before yours.
Rich, and Elmer,
What you wrote is true. I was assuming, for argument's sake, that the OP would:
In my case, the yard is isolated from the main by a crossover (both rails gapped) and powered from the space between the crossover and the first body turnout. There ARE gaps on the body tracks, bridged by diodes - I can't back a train into the end-of-track bumper (a chunk of angle iron) but I can get it out without any further action. Just one advantage of sticking with analog DC and soldering jumpers around rail joints instead of adding separate feeders...
Bryan, good luck. Look forward to learning the results.
Rich,
I finished laying the turnouts and track for my stub yard late last night. Went ahead and soldered feeder wires on the point ends of each turnout, and added feeders to the straight track sections. Maybe overkill on the feeders, but i've always been happy having plenty of feeds vs. having to go back later and add more.
The feeders were tied into my main buss wires on a temporary basis. I simply wound the end of the feeder around the buss wire as securely as possible. Placed a SW 1200 on the tracks and fired up the Digitrax. Hey! It works! I ran the switcher through all routes two passes each way with no problems, no shorts, no stalls....that is until I made a third run through the ladder and the second turnout seemed to loose power. At first I thought it was a short circuit. The zephyr did not indicate a short on its display or click at any time. No derailment, or fouling the turnout, coupler hang up or such. I pushed the loco a bit further through the t.o. and it came back to life. It did this whether entering or leaving the t.o. So, pretty sure there is a power feed issues there. I believe that the feeder wires were not in 100% contact with the bus, as this was only a temp. setup. When I can return to work with this ladder some more I will tie it in with the proper solder joints on the buss wire. Hopefully the dead spot will then be cured.
Bryan, I don't believe that there is any such thing as overkill when it comes to feeders. You can never have too many, just too few.
Good news on the installation. Let us know if you have any problems.
I didn't use Peco track since a few years because of the use of Fastrack fixtures in Nscale code 55.
But Peco was my favorite before the Fastrack switch.
The electrofrog system need to insulate the frog from the adjacent track and this need a gap in the track or an insulate joiner which is not easy to hidde especialy in Nscale.
I used a different way for all ladder or follow up switch, I simply cut the frog like the Fastrack method between the ties using a jeweler saw and wired the frog on a contact of the Tortoise motor. I cut away the small frog Peco wire under the frog.
This give a nearly electrical bullet proof turnout, only a few wire are needed to power the track of the ladder or the group of turnouts
I like to build all switch arrangement on the benchwork, find it easier to work on it. The method allow me also to solder swicth rail togheter even if two switch are faced.
A ladder of numerous switch is soldered and aligned togheter on the workbench and after put on the roadbed; I do the same whith my Fastrack turnouts . Since the frog are individualy powered I didn't have to have a brain storm for wiring all these turnouts and finaly the use of an frog juicer of Tam Valley depot simplify the wiring to nealy nothing.