Javelina All kidding aside Sheldon, I do wish you'd make good on your threat to publish something on your MZL system. It sounds interesting, and a lot of folks, myself included would probably like to know more about it. I don't fear relays or wiring diagrams ever since I rebuilt my old Porsche 914s Bosch K-Jetronic fuel injection. I do confess to a near pathological revulsion to computerizing every durn thing though. I even pine for the days of "old school" phone systems, the ones where you could actually hear every word, rather than every third one. As a machinist familiar with both conventional and CNC systems I remember the old timer who told me "CNC makes the hard stuff easy and the easy stuff hard!" Geezer had a point. Lou
All kidding aside Sheldon, I do wish you'd make good on your threat to publish something on your MZL system. It sounds interesting, and a lot of folks, myself included would probably like to know more about it. I don't fear relays or wiring diagrams ever since I rebuilt my old Porsche 914s Bosch K-Jetronic fuel injection. I do confess to a near pathological revulsion to computerizing every durn thing though. I even pine for the days of "old school" phone systems, the ones where you could actually hear every word, rather than every third one. As a machinist familiar with both conventional and CNC systems I remember the old timer who told me "CNC makes the hard stuff easy and the easy stuff hard!" Geezer had a point.
Lou
Lou,
I do have a book about 3/4 written on my version of MZL, but time is a real issue for me at this point and I will admit, my interest in "socializing" with other modelers is a very low priority at this time.
Actually, what I have done is really simple. If you have three key model railroad resources, and a basic understanding of relay control practice, you can figure it out your self.
Ed Ravenscroft's MZL description in Model Railroader - this uses turnout position to direct track power eliminating over half the "block toggles".
Bruce Cubb's original relay based signal system and intergrated cab control, also described in MR - This and MZL integrate signaling into cab selection only giving green signals to trains with clear routes both in terms of route and power.
Paul Mallery's Electrical Handbooks 1 & 2 for Model Railroads - read the part about using push buttons in muliple locations rather than toggle/rotary switches to assign track sections (blocks) to the throttles - this provides walk around control for the wireless radio throttles by duplicating cab assignments at multiple points around the layout, eliminating doubling back or being anchored to a control panel, and they are also duplicated on a dispatchers panel, for CTC control.
That's all I did, was combine these three main ideas, with Aristo Wireless throttles, and a few secondary ideas like the staggered section break to prevent section overrunning.
All "interlocking sections" (groups of turnouts) are X sections - that is they get there power from the adjacent sections (blocks) automaticly based on route postion. They are also the "buffer" sections described before that prevent collisions. And, they also work like real CTC interlockings - you cannot throw the turnouts while the train is in the the interlocking section - so you cannot throw a switch under the train.
I know, this way too much operational realism for some of these guys.........
Maybe one day life will calm down around here and I will finish the book, who knows?
Right now I'm just happy to make some time to work on the layout - that's why I'm not on here much anymore.
Sheldon
Sheldon,
Well, I'm part of the way there since I've got Mallerys #2 book, but not #1. I suppose I'll spring for the MR CD collection once I can find a stray couple of C notes that don't already belong to someone else before I've made them. The staggered blocks concept sounds clever though I confess I've never thought much about signaling my pike, seeing as it represents a back country branch/terminal line rather than a class one railroad. Still, the idea of integrating turnouts into X sections seems like one of those "Why would anyone choose to do different?" ideas. Since hand made turnouts are more easily made power routing than not, the whole affair (your system that is) seems like one logical step after another. Thanks for the clarifications and hints, they're certainly food for thought. Hope you make some progress on your layout, but don't be a stranger to the forum. We need some seasoned vets here as well as the constant flow of same same beginner questions.
My version has also been installed on a single track, non signaled layout that represents 1915.
And a bunch of guys who use DCC at home have operating sessions on that layout at least once a month.
In that application, a typical "town" or subdivision that would normally require four or more "blocks" only requires two cab assignment sections. As Randy described, two trains can approach the passing siding, one enters one track, one enters the other, and with the the touch of two push buttons and two manually operated turnouts they pass each other and leave in opposite directions.
Operators there also use Aristo wireless throttles and there is a dispatcher who talks to station agents, who pass train orders to engineers - just like they did back in those days. but still trains don't move until proper authority is given and cleared.
And again, the operators are not bound by control panels, every control they need at any given spot is duplicated as they progress around the layout with their wireless throttle.
One other note of explaination - while the system will work with any kind of turnout, the power routing does not rely on power routing through the turnout points. I actually prefer feed through turnouts like Atlas, they make some of this easier/better. I have never liked or trusted points to route power, and there are numerous circuits to be switched. Every turnout that controls power routing is connected to a 4P2T relay that actually directs the track power, including power frogs and signal logic. And other relays manage the push button cab assignment system. The detectors I use have relay outputs and combine with the turnout relays to provide all of the signaling logic needed, so the only extra cost for signaling is the detectors and signals themselves - no computers, no fancy circuit boards.
Thanks for your thoughts, take care,
Oh but you DO have a computer. Just because it only can solve one problem (which signal aspect to display based on track setup) and just because it uses relays for the logic - it's still a computer. Just the other day there was a bit of a sidetrack in one of the Yahoo groups I monitor which covers what was my very first computer back in 1980, that discussion veered to relay computers and there were some examples of recently constructed ones. All relays and LEDs and switches, no integrated circuits, no CPU chip. Other than the LEDs, emulating some of the very first computers. In fact, the origin of a "program bug" comes from literally, a bug caught in one of the relays in one of the early computers. So yes, you ARE using a computer, albeit one circa the era represented on your layout, not one of recent vintage.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker Oh but you DO have a computer. Just because it only can solve one problem (which signal aspect to display based on track setup) and just because it uses relays for the logic - it's still a computer. Just the other day there was a bit of a sidetrack in one of the Yahoo groups I monitor which covers what was my very first computer back in 1980, that discussion veered to relay computers and there were some examples of recently constructed ones. All relays and LEDs and switches, no integrated circuits, no CPU chip. Other than the LEDs, emulating some of the very first computers. In fact, the origin of a "program bug" comes from literally, a bug caught in one of the relays in one of the early computers. So yes, you ARE using a computer, albeit one circa the era represented on your layout, not one of recent vintage. --Randy
Very true, and I designed and installed a lot of those for industry back in the 1970's and early 1980's.
The relay circuits used for the signaling are nearly identical to the those used by the prototype from the first signaling systems to some still in use today, so you are correct, they are very era approperate to my 1954 time frame.
All kidding aside, I love beautiful wiring, and that, is beautiful. 36 relays and the wiring strips, all properly labeled.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Geared Steam Sheldon All kidding aside, I love beautiful wiring, and that, is beautiful. 36 relays and the wiring strips, all properly labeled.
Thank You,
I think the OP has left the room and is taking up knitting!
-Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
For a new poster, He was probably overwhelmed, with all the replys and the direction, the original question swayed. It happens.
Respectfully,
Frank
Here's a requirement that I have before I invest DCC, which I want to be soon....I'd like to be able to run locomotives through phone apps and ipod, iphone, etc. using a wireless router and have the system conncected to a dedicated computer that performs whatever tasks that would be useful for. I have no shortage of extra wireless routers and computers and have no problem wiring. The problem is that when I try to research this I come up with almost no information other than some people do it. That's not real helpful....can someone shed any light on the systems that have these capabilities?