Me again....
I apparently inadvertently changed the out-of-box Bachmann FA2 (DCC and Sound model) CV setting(s) while setting up 4 digit address to the engine number. All I can think of is the left hand control knob of the DT402 got moved (fat fingers gripping the control) to display CV's instead of 4 digit setup when I pressed "Enter", after which the engine was unresponsive.
As I've now found out Bachmann doesn't include a decoder "factory reset" procedure with the values in any of their new line of DCC diesels with or without sound.
While looking through Google search results I saw numerous posts stating the NMRA decoder default standard is CV8=8 and followed instructions how to do it. This did get me back to where I could control the engine but now I have to advance the throttle to 6 or 7 to get the engine to move and it's not smooth compared to the out-of-box 03 address state.
I've registered and post accordingly in the Bachmann HO forum but no replies so far.
All said, I'm in totally unfamiliar territory here. If anyone knows where I can find factory set CV's and values for the Bachmann RS3, GP9, S2 and FA2 engines please post the link(s).
Maybe this Soundtraxx page that I found via the Bachmann site:
http://www.soundtraxx.com/factory/OEM%20pages/bachmann/bachmann.php
Some of the specific diesel links from there don't work, but the FA2 does, a table of CVs that may hint at which Tsunami CVs are active (and by omission inactive) on these decoders for Bachmann.
I note the FA2 CV8 is listed as Manufacturer ID, default 141. But my Sound on Board Mogul list is similar and setting CV8 = 8 does work for it. The mogul quick start guide does not state how to reset, unfortunately. But if you download the Diesel Tech Reference and Diesel Users Guide (links on the top left of above webpage) you'll see confirmation that reset can be done this way.
Hope this helps.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
peahrens Maybe this Soundtraxx page that I found via the Bachmann site: http://www.soundtraxx.com/factory/OEM%20pages/bachmann/bachmann.php Some of the specific diesel links from there don't work, but the FA2 does, a table of CVs that may hint at which Tsunami CVs are active (and by omission inactive) on these decoders for Bachmann. I note the FA2 CV8 is listed as Manufacturer ID, default 141. But my Sound on Board Mogul list is similar and setting CV8 = 8 does work for it. The mogul quick start guide does not state how to reset, unfortunately. But if you download the Diesel Tech Reference and Diesel Users Guide (links on the top left of above webpage) you'll see confirmation that reset can be done this way. Hope this helps.
Thanks for the reply and the link, which I had already seen in my Google search. Since I posted I set CV29 to 38 (based on numerous forums comments) which seemed to help with the disparity of the engine speed to the DT402 displayed power number as the control knob is turned compared to the default CV8=8 reset setting. The GP9 still doesn't seem to run as smooth as before but then I'm really paying attention to it now whereas out of the box I didn't as such. I reset the (2) other engines to CV29=38 and they seem to run a bit better.
For the time being I'm going to leave well enough alone, as I don't understand how you go about changing bits with a particular value.....such as CV29 set to 38 sets certain bits to (1) and others stay at (0). Again it's the "how" I don't understand along with not knowing for sure what Bachmann's out-of-the-box CV settings are....
I'm trying to understand all this also in the past week as I do my first consist with a Genesis GP9 and an RS2 with a TCS motor decoder. Perhaps the Diesel Users Guide pg 16 Table A (re CV29) and pg 18 Table B (re specific speed tables) is a start, at least for me. Table A (CV29 settings) shows the appropriate CV that gives the desired combo of speed tables (on/off), analog mode allowed/not, speed steps (28/128 option) and loco normal direction. The table eliminates the need to understand the bits for the four functions, just pick the combo needed. The difference I note in CV29 at 38 (vs default 22 in the Bachmann table) is that a value of 38 turns off speed table options (as then specified in CV25, choice of 15 predetermined ones or a custom entry requiring CVs 67-94 to be populated). I presume when speed tables are off as with CV29 at 38, you get a straight line effect on speed per dial setting, except perhaps as CV2, if utilized, adjusts min speed.
With the default CV29 of 22, note in Table A that speed tables are enabled. Then, CV25 comes into play and the default of 16 (see table B) means the "user" (or Bachmann values) custom table is used (as opposed to one of the straight line or curve options that could have been chosen) and the user custom table is than set by CVs 67-94. The problem there is the Bachmann default list for these CVs (e.g., for your FA2 or my Mogul) just says "Varies" so if they have a custom curve in those CVs as defaults we don't know what it is (unless we read them on the program track or call them). But it could explain different behavior using the CV8 reset from the Cv29 at 38 speed tables disabled mode, which again I presume is straight line.
if I interpret this correctly, each Bachmann loco type could have different speed curves (if CV29 at 22, CV25 at 16, and CVs 67-94 all "Varies" but unknown (unless you read them on the program track...I haven't gotten that curious).
Others know way more than me, so forgive me if I've arrived at any wrong conclusions. And if someone can clarify, please do. Or maybe worth a call to Bachmann tech folks if you have lotsa these.
In possible answer to some questions:
The the default values for the Soundvalue Tsunami decoder for the Bachmann FA2 are theoretically shown here: http://www.soundtraxx.com/factory/OEM_pages/bachmann/ho_fa2_sv.pdf.
There is a CV calculator shown here: http://www.digitrax.com/support/cv/calculators/. I would not be using a value of 38 for CV 29. Looking at the calculator, a value of 38 means that you are using 28/128 speed step control, 4 digit addressing, a normal direction of travel, the speed tables disabled, and you have analog conversion on. This last means that you have the decoder set such that it will run on DC. Most of the folks here recommend that you have the analog conversion off because the loco will sometimes do strange things with the conversion on.
So, if you turn the conversion off, you will see that the value in CV 29 becomes 34. You will note from the Soundtraxx link above that the default value of CV 29 is 22, or so it claims. If this is true, the only way that I can get a value of 22 in CV 29 would be to have 28/128 speed step control, 2 digit addressing, analog conversion on, normal direction of travel forward, and one of the speed tables active.
The active speed table is set by the value in CV 25. Assuming that the Soundtraxx information is correct, the default value of CV 25 is 16. The different values of CV 25 and their associated speed curves are shown on pages 22 and 23 of the Sountraxx Tsunami Technical Reference, http://www.soundtraxx.com/manuals/tsunami_diesel_technical_reference_0213.pdf. A value of 16 in CV 25 means that you are using a user defined speed table, which means that values would have to be assigned to CVs 67 to 94. Since you have not assigned any values to those CVs, then I guess we must assume that there are some default values in those CVs. Except we don't know what they are, other than the "varies" answer. However, there must be some values in there since the loco runs out of the box (assuming that the value in CV 29 actually was a default of 22.)
So far as I know, the Tsunami decoder does not support the ability to use three point speed matching...those points being Vstart, Vmid, and Vmax. For this you would need CV 2, CV 5, and CV 6. If you look at the first couple of pages of the Tsunami Technical Reference you'll see that they skip over CV 5 and CV 6. So you will have to use the speed tables to do any speed matching.
You don't have to use the user generated speed tables if you can get one of the pre-existing curves to make the loco do what you want. I have a friend who does this. First though, I recommend that you change CV 29 to a value of 50. Thsi gives you 28/128 speed step control, 4 digit addressing, turns analog mode off, forward as the normal direction of travel, and enables the speed tables.
Then you can pick one of the curves shown in the Tsunami manual. I suggest that you set CV 25 to a value of 2. This should give you a linear speed curve. Then you can experiment by changing the value of CV 25 to pick one of the other curves and see if any one of them gives you what you desire.
And while you're experimenting, you can change the different conditions as shown on the CV calculator to see how the value in CV 29 changes. You'll notice that there is only one combination of conditions for any single CV value.
And a final comment, to reset the Tsunami to whatever the as-supplied default CV values were you need to set CV 8 to a value of 8. This is discussed on page 6 of the Tsunami Technical reference.
Have fun!!!!!
EDIT: if the only thing anyone wants to do is get the loco to start on a different speed step, then after resetting the decoder CV 2 would need to be adjusted. However, you would not want to be having the speed tables active for this. So, once again, the value of CV 29 that you would need would be 34. Check this out with the CV calculator.
You mention the "Diesel User's Guide" ..... if it's on the Bachmann website I haven't found it. The only information I can find is shown via a "DCC on Board" link that takes you to a brief PDF that essentially tells me nothing other than some general statements including saying their DCC on Board diesels ship with a speed profile (my choice of words) but no specifics.
Compounding my problem I wasn't aware until later after I had bought and installed my Digitrax Super Empire Builder XTra system that the included DB150 command station can't read existing engine CV settings via the DT402 throttle.
This said, the more I search I'm finding snippets of Bachmann diesel CV settings here and there like mention of CV3 and 4 momentum and deceleration set to "1" (default) along with CV2 (starting voltage) @ 10 when shipped (out of the box values). I've also become aware the Soundtraxx decoders in the new line of lower cost DCC Bachmann diesels are OEM crippled versions (to keep the cost down) where, for instance, you can't program/set reverb (among other sound options) as available with full retail versions of the decoder.
Over50You mention the "Diesel User's Guide"
The Users Guide and all the other Tsunami stuff is found here: http://www.soundtraxx.com/manuals.php. The Technical Reference I mentioned above probably has more info.
maxman In possible answer to some questions: The the default values for the Soundvalue Tsunami decoder for the Bachmann FA2 are theoretically shown here: http://www.soundtraxx.com/factory/OEM_pages/bachmann/ho_fa2_sv.pdf. There is a CV calculator shown here: http://www.digitrax.com/support/cv/calculators/. I would not be using a value of 38 for CV 29. Looking at the calculator, a value of 38 means that you are using 28/128 speed step control, 4 digit addressing, a normal direction of travel, the speed tables disabled, and you have analog conversion on. This last means that you have the decoder set such that it will run on DC. Most of the folks here recommend that you have the analog conversion off because the loco will sometimes do strange things with the conversion on. So, if you turn the conversion off, you will see that the value in CV 29 becomes 34. You will note from the Soundtraxx link above that the default value of CV 29 is 22, or so it claims. If this is true, the only way that I can get a value of 22 in CV 29 would be to have 28/128 speed step control, 2 digit addressing, analog conversion on, normal direction of travel forward, and one of the speed tables active. The active speed table is set by the value in CV 25. Assuming that the Soundtraxx information is correct, the default value of CV 25 is 16. The different values of CV 25 and their associated speed curves are shown on pages 22 and 23 of the Sountraxx Tsunami Technical Reference, http://www.soundtraxx.com/manuals/tsunami_diesel_technical_reference_0213.pdf. A value of 16 in CV 25 means that you are using a user defined speed table, which means that values would have to be assigned to CVs 67 to 94. Since you have not assigned any values to those CVs, then I guess we must assume that there are some default values in those CVs. Except we don't know what they are, other than the "varies" answer. However, there must be some values in there since the loco runs out of the box (assuming that the value in CV 29 actually was a default of 22.) So far as I know, the Tsunami decoder does not support the ability to use three point speed matching...those points being Vstart, Vmid, and Vmax. For this you would need CV 2, CV 5, and CV 6. If you look at the first couple of pages of the Tsunami Technical Reference you'll see that they skip over CV 5 and CV 6. So you will have to use the speed tables to do any speed matching. You don't have to use the user generated speed tables if you can get one of the pre-existing curves to make the loco do what you want. I have a friend who does this. First though, I recommend that you change CV 29 to a value of 50. Thsi gives you 28/128 speed step control, 4 digit addressing, turns analog mode off, forward as the normal direction of travel, and enables the speed tables. Then you can pick one of the curves shown in the Tsunami manual. I suggest that you set CV 22 to a value of 2. This should give you a linear speed curve. Then you can experiment by changing the value of CV 22 to pick one of the other curves and see if any one of them gives you what you desire. And while you're experimenting, you can change the different conditions as shown on the CV calculator to see how the value in CV 29 changes. You'll notice that there is only one combination of conditions for any single CV value. And a final comment, to reset the Tsunami to whatever the as-supplied default CV values were you need to set CV 8 to a value of 8. This is discussed on page 6 of the Tsunami Technical reference. Have fun!!!!! EDIT: if the only thing anyone wants to do is get the loco to start on a different speed step, then after resetting the decoder CV 2 would need to be adjusted. However, you would not want to be having the speed tables active for this. So, once again, the value of CV 29 that you would need would be 34. Check this out with the CV calculator.
Then you can pick one of the curves shown in the Tsunami manual. I suggest that you set CV 22 to a value of 2. This should give you a linear speed curve. Then you can experiment by changing the value of CV 22 to pick one of the other curves and see if any one of them gives you what you desire.
Wow! Lot's of good information. I'm still coming to grips with the terms "speed step" and "speed curve". If I'm getting this right, speed step refers to the number of changes in voltage applied to the motor as the throttle is advanced, where the more steps the smoother the performance? And speed curve refers to a specific performance acceleration and deceleration speed profile that is enabled?
I've printed your post and tomorrow will try your recommendation of setting CV29=50. ****But after looking at the soundtraxx diesel technical reference you linked the speed tables are listed for CV25 (with 2 speed step the linear profile) and CV22 settings refer to consisting setups. Am I correct the CV22 was a typo??
Over50 I'm still coming to grips with the terms "speed step" and "speed curve". If I'm getting this right, speed step refers to the number of changes in voltage applied to the motor as the throttle is advanced, where the more steps the smoother the performance? And speed curve refers to a specific performance acceleration and deceleration speed profile that is enabled? I've printed your post and tomorrow will try your recommendation of setting CV29=50. ****But after looking at the soundtraxx diesel technical reference you linked the speed tables are listed for CV25 (with 2 speed step the linear profile) and CV22 settings refer to consisting setups. Am I correct the CV22 was a typo??
I'm still coming to grips with the terms "speed step" and "speed curve". If I'm getting this right, speed step refers to the number of changes in voltage applied to the motor as the throttle is advanced, where the more steps the smoother the performance? And speed curve refers to a specific performance acceleration and deceleration speed profile that is enabled?
Yes, you are correct. It should be CV 25. I see that I started that way, and then changed to CV 22. It was late, I guess. Anyway, I went back and edited my post.
I think you can visualize speed steps as the number of voltage changes to get from A to B. I prefer to think of it as the number of incremental steps of the controller to get from A to B, which is probably the same thing. I don't remember if you said which DCC system you have, but different controllers display the step information differently. For example, NCE displays steps from 0 to 28, or 0 to 127. I believe that Digitrax displays from 0 to 100, which I believe translates as a percentage. There is not an issue with either way of doing this, so long as you remember that if you want speed step 14 (of 28) with NCE, you display 14 on the controller, while with Digitrax you would want to be displaying 50 (50% of 28). [if I'm incorrect with this, I'll soon be corrected]
If you decide that you would rather use 128 speed steps, then what you are doing is subdividing the 28 speed steps into smaller increments. If and when you decide to use JMRI to do your decoder programming, they have a speed table section where you can individually adjust those speed step CVs. However, there are only 28 of them, not 128. This is not a problem because the decoder will break those 28 steps down into 128 increments without any further changes to anything that you would need to make.
I don't think that I would say that the speed curves have anything to do with acceleration or deceleration profile. When you set the speed steps the loco will go from one set speed to the next set speed pretty instantly. Acceleration and deceleration are set by two different CVs (CV 3 and CV 4). Values in these CVs allow you to change the rate at which the loco gets from one speed step to the next.
I believe that the intention of the pre-existing speed curves is to allow the loco owner to try to represent operation of a loco under different conditions. For example, a heavily loaded loco would probably start moving slowly, and then speed up as it gets going. For that one would probably use one of the exponential curves. For a loco that would get off to a fast start and then top off at some speed, then one would probably choose one of the logarithmic curves. But what I think it really helps is to allow the owner to match that particular loco to others he has, especially since the Tsunami does not support CVmid and CVmax.
maxman Yes, you are correct. It should be CV 25. I see that I started that way, and then changed to CV 22. It was late, I guess. Anyway, I went back and edited my post. I think you can visualize speed steps as the number of voltage changes to get from A to B. I prefer to think of it as the number of incremental steps of the controller to get from A to B, which is probably the same thing. I don't remember if you said which DCC system you have, but different controllers display the step information differently. For example, NCE displays steps from 0 to 28, or 0 to 127. I believe that Digitrax displays from 0 to 100, which I believe translates as a percentage. There is not an issue with either way of doing this, so long as you remember that if you want speed step 14 (of 28) with NCE, you display 14 on the controller, while with Digitrax you would want to be displaying 50 (50% of 28). [if I'm incorrect with this, I'll soon be corrected] If you decide that you would rather use 128 speed steps, then what you are doing is subdividing the 28 speed steps into smaller increments. If and when you decide to use JMRI to do your decoder programming, they have a speed table section where you can individually adjust those speed step CVs. However, there are only 28 of them, not 128. This is not a problem because the decoder will break those 28 steps down into 128 increments without any further changes to anything that you would need to make. I don't think that I would say that the speed curves have anything to do with acceleration or deceleration profile. When you set the speed steps the loco will go from one set speed to the next set speed pretty instantly. Acceleration and deceleration are set by two different CVs (CV 3 and CV 4). Values in these CVs allow you to change the rate at which the loco gets from one speed step to the next. I believe that the intention of the pre-existing speed curves is to allow the loco owner to try to represent operation of a loco under different conditions. For example, a heavily loaded loco would probably start moving slowly, and then speed up as it gets going. For that one would probably use one of the exponential curves. For a loco that would get off to a fast start and then top off at some speed, then one would probably choose one of the logarithmic curves. But what I think it really helps is to allow the owner to match that particular loco to others he has, especially since the Tsunami does not support CVmid and CVmax.
Was late for me, too. In rereading your post this morning I saw you had stated CV25 in reference to the speed table profile a couple of paragraphs earlier.
As for the 28/128 speed steps, per my Digitrax Super Empire Builder Xtra manual the included DB150 command station is configured for 28/128 speed step by default so I would expect whatever speed table I use should include 28/`128 speed step. Again, keep in mind I'm getting my feet wet with DCC and that my sudden introduction to CV's was the result of me inadvertently changing the out-of-the-box factory preset on my Bachmann engine(s)....
Over50As for the 28/128 speed steps, per my Digitrax Super Empire Builder Xtra manual the included DB150 command station is configured for 28/128 speed step by default so I would expect whatever speed table I use should include 28/`128 speed step.
I believe that all the speed tables are set using 28 speed steps, since there are only 28 associated CVs. The DCC system tells the decoder whether to use 28 steps, or to break it down to 128. The manual for your system should describe how to do this.
maxman I believe that all the speed tables are set using 28 speed steps, since there are only 28 associated CVs. The DCC system tells the decoder whether to use 28 steps, or to break it down to 128. The manual for your system should describe how to do this.
I set CV29 to 50 and CV25 to 2 on my FA2 engines, added a slight amount of momentum (accel. and decell) to each and I'm satisfied with the start up and stopping performance. Applying the same to my GP9 and RS3 didn't make any noticeable difference ..... still requires a relative 6 to 8 level on my throttle to see movement whereas both FA2's begin a slight creep at 2. The S2 (Bachmann) with sound switcher I have was not affected by my initial screwup and the performance is good so didn't change the CV's from the factory setup.
As for the "hard starting" GP9 and RS3 I'm going to open them up to check the drive gearing, etc., just to make sure there's no mechanical reason and if none then do a 1 to 2 hour "burn in" to see if this helps. Just to mention neither one has sound so don't know if this could be a decoder thing as both don't run as smooth as my (3) engines with sound.
So......thanks to your help and other's suggestions I've learned more about CV settings than I could have on my own in so short a span of time....and at this point I'm good to go for now. Again, many thanks for your help.
Over50As for the "hard starting" GP9 and RS3 I'm going to open them up to check the drive gearing, etc., just to make sure there's no mechanical reason and if none then do a 1 to 2 hour "burn in" to see if this helps. Just to mention neither one has sound so don't know if this could be a decoder thing as both don't run as smooth as my (3) engines with sound.
Before you do all that, what decoders are in those two locos? Are they the original Bachmann motor only decoders? If it is the DCC on-board non-sound decoder, those instructions are here: http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/ez_content/1_Amp_Decoder_Instr.pdf
I don't see anywhere in these instructions where it says that the decoder supports speed tables, so the value you would use in CV 29 is going to be something other than 50. Looking at the CV calculator I think that a value of 38 is appropriate.
It also appears that the decoder supports CV 2, which is the starting voltage, does not support CVs 5 and 6 (mid and max voltage), and does support CVs 3 and 4 (acceleration and deceleration rate). From the table in the instructions, CV 2 has a range of 0 to 31 with a default value of 10. Try adjusting CV 2 up or down a little to see if you get any different response to the starting point on the controller.
You may also want to consider swapping out those supplied decoders with better replacements which support all the CVs as well as speed tables. Several of my aquaintances have replaced the decoders with NCE decoders. I believe that others on the forum would recommend TCS decoders. There are also other replacements out there. The engines run much better with the decoders replaced.
maxman Before you do all that, what decoders are in those two locos? Are they the original Bachmann motor only decoders? If it is the DCC on-board non-sound decoder, those instructions are here: http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/ez_content/1_Amp_Decoder_Instr.pdf
Decoders are out-of-the-box/as purchased. And I had already set the CV values according to your linked info. With the default CV2 start voltage value of 10 programmed in the RS3 and GP9 they start moving faster than a creep as soon as I move off zero with the DT402 but then stay at this faster than creep speed until I advance the throttle beyond 10. I've played with the numbers between 0 and 10 with only a (1) value giving me a near "normal" (such as it is...) slow start with both albeit I have to crank the throttle above 8 to gain progressive speed.
For example, the difference in relative speed with the GP9 and RS3 compared with my (3) Bachmann sound engines is far slower, where I have to advance the throttle to the upper 20's for a corresponding throttle setting of 17 with any of the sound engines (all same CV settings).
I've added momentum to try to alleviate the hard start, cleaned the wheels sets using the Woodland Scenics wheel cleaner with no appreciable change. The fact the GP9 is harder starting than the RS3 is why I'm thinking possible gear or motor coupling bind or misalignment, i.e., a mechanical reason in part. And, too, from what I've read about decoders - and no experience replacing one to gage the possible differences - others have said just a decoder change made all the difference in engine run performance.
I hesitate to spend more money on these two engines but if I decide I can't live with what I have I'll take it to my LHS and pay someone with experience to install and setup a good sound decoder plus speaker because I'm just now only on the 3 rung of the 16 foot knowledge ladder to tackle this.
Why Bachmann doesn't put sound in all road names of this series of lower tier/cost DCC RS3's vs just some is beyond me.....
Just to mention as an aside, the Digitrax DB150 command station option default state is set for 128 speed step.