Trains.com

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

Wireless or Corded Handheld DC Throttle

14986 views
28 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    August 2010
  • 1 posts
Wireless or Corded Handheld DC Throttle
Posted by CASO_Chris on Thursday, January 3, 2013 1:18 PM

I'm looking to build my own or purchase a wireless or corded handheld DC throttle for my new HO scale layout.  I've considered DCC, but with 70+ locomotives in my fleet, the cost of purchasing and installing decoders is prohibitive.

Any suggestions for DC throttles or build-it-yourself solutions?

Cheers,

Chris

Tags: DC Throttle
  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 3,312 posts
Posted by locoi1sa on Thursday, January 3, 2013 2:08 PM

Chris.

 So you have fewer locos than I do. Still no reason to give up on DCC.

Our club layout before we changed to DCC was powered with 5 DC cabs with Aristocraft wireless throttles. They worked good but ate batteries like a rabid bear stuck in a meat wagon. You were lucky during a 4 hour op session if you changed batteries twice. We used rechargeable batteries and had a bank of 6 chargers going during a session. Sometimes the system overloaded and strange things like runaways and direction changes would occur.

          Pete

 I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!

 I started with nothing and still have most of it left!

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: Pittsburgh, PA
  • 1,796 posts
Posted by JoeinPA on Thursday, January 3, 2013 2:32 PM

Chris:

Here's a page with loads of circuits to build. There are several versions of DC throttles included.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaisley4/CircuitIndex.html#1

Joe

  • Member since
    October 2006
  • From: Western, MA
  • 8,571 posts
Posted by richg1998 on Thursday, January 3, 2013 2:40 PM

I built the below one some years ago. The pulse width allows for some fine tuning of speed.

http://www.awrr.com/throttle_Thorne.html

Rich

If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.

  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: SE Minnesota
  • 6,847 posts
Posted by jrbernier on Thursday, January 3, 2013 2:50 PM

  If you are looking for 'wireless' DC throttles, the Aristocraft one is used by a number of folks.  There are several variations of the system, so hopefully some of the 'experts' will chime in.

Jim

Modeling BNSF  and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin

  • Member since
    October 2006
  • From: Western, MA
  • 8,571 posts
Posted by richg1998 on Thursday, January 3, 2013 2:57 PM

Below is another link.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/kstapleton3/Index.html

I have seen kids running a layout at the Big E train show that uses the Aristocraft wireless throttle. There is a fellow in these forums who also uses it and really likes it. That might be your best bet for DC wireless.

Use Google to search for Aristocraft Train Engineer Throttles

Rich



]

If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.

  • Member since
    October 2006
  • From: Western, MA
  • 8,571 posts
Posted by richg1998 on Thursday, January 3, 2013 3:02 PM

I use DCC but I see your position. Stay with DC and enjoy it.

Rich

If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.

  • Member since
    October 2004
  • From: Colorful Colorado
  • 8,639 posts
Posted by Texas Zepher on Thursday, January 3, 2013 4:06 PM

Oh man, the Youth in Model Railroading group uses the Aristocraft wireless throttles when the layout is set to DC mode.   They work fine, however there is a delay in pressing the buttons and when the loco responds.  At first I thought someone had momentum enabled but that was not the case.  It just feels like it.

The children have also broken off the antennas, and we have had to constantly fix them.   I don't know if that is because the units are cheaply constructed or if it is just that the children are that careless and hard on them.   I could assume a mature person would not have this problem.

 

P.S.  Don't let a number of locomotives prevent you from making the DCC plunge.  I think I probably had about that many when I first went to command control (CTC in 1979).   I have NEVER gotten them all converted, and even the ones I did convert had to be reconvered to Railcommand and then to DCC.  I'm guessing that now more than 30 years later (wow, has it really been that long!) I've still got more DC locos than DCC.  Had I waited until I could afford to convert the whole fleet I would still be flipping panel power routing switches instead of running my trains.

 

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Maryland
  • 12,897 posts
Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Thursday, January 3, 2013 8:24 PM

locoi1sa

Chris.

 So you have fewer locos than I do. Still no reason to give up on DCC.

Our club layout before we changed to DCC was powered with 5 DC cabs with Aristocraft wireless throttles. They worked good but ate batteries like a rabid bear stuck in a meat wagon. You were lucky during a 4 hour op session if you changed batteries twice. We used rechargeable batteries and had a bank of 6 chargers going during a session. Sometimes the system overloaded and strange things like runaways and direction changes would occur.

          Pete

Pete,

The reason your club had so much trouble with batteries in the Aristo Throttles is because they were not designed to work with rechargeable Ni-Cad batteries.

Rechargable Ni-Cad batteries put out less voltage than regular AA batteries, reduced voltage dramaticly increases the current used in equipment designed for full 1.5 volt batteries.

I have 8 Aristo Train Engineer throttles on my layout and the transmitter batteries last months at a time. Another modeler I know has 6 of them on his HO layout, regular AA batteries last months on his layout as well.

Sheldon

    

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Maryland
  • 12,897 posts
Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Thursday, January 3, 2013 8:34 PM

Texas Zepher

Oh man, the Youth in Model Railroading group uses the Aristocraft wireless throttles when the layout is set to DC mode.   They work fine, however there is a delay in pressing the buttons and when the loco responds.  At first I thought someone had momentum enabled but that was not the case.  It just feels like it.

The children have also broken off the antennas, and we have had to constantly fix them.   I don't know if that is because the units are cheaply constructed or if it is just that the children are that careless and hard on them.   I could assume a mature person would not have this problem.

 

P.S.  Don't let a number of locomotives prevent you from making the DCC plunge.  I think I probably had about that many when I first went to command control (CTC in 1979).   I have NEVER gotten them all converted, and even the ones I did convert had to be reconvered to Railcommand and then to DCC.  I'm guessing that now more than 30 years later (wow, has it really been that long!) I've still got more DC locos than DCC.  Had I waited until I could afford to convert the whole fleet I would still be flipping panel power routing switches instead of running my trains.

 

If there is a delay with the Aristo Throttles, they simply are not set up correctly. The Aristo throttle has 10 channels on 10 frequencies, to avoid any delay or conflict each different throttle used on the same layout should be programed to a different channel and a different frequency.

This gives 10 different interference/delay proof throttle codes - Eaxmple, the first throttle should be programed to Freq #1, channel #1, the second to freq #2, channel #2, and so on. They will not interfere or delay each other if set up like this. The Aristo instructions do explain this, but maybe not in great detail.

As for the antennas, Aristo did sell rubber duckies for indoor use, but you can make your own from wire springs and heat shrink tubing - they work great with little loss of signal range. I can run my trains from out in my driveway 100 ' from my layout room.

Toggle flipping is a separate topic, but my control system handles eight trains with no block toggles - but I do have signals and CTC.

Sheldon

    

  • Member since
    October 2004
  • From: Colorful Colorado
  • 8,639 posts
Posted by Texas Zepher on Thursday, January 3, 2013 8:41 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
The reason your club had so much trouble with batteries in the Aristo Throttles is because they were not designed to work with rechargeable Ni-Cad batteries.

That is good info for more than just wireless throttles.  I mean I knew that  1.2V vs 1.5V of an alkaline if I would have just stopped to think about it.   My old 5-watt portable CB  has room for two additional batteries if Ni-Cads are used.

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Maryland
  • 12,897 posts
Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Thursday, January 3, 2013 8:41 PM

CASO_Chris

I'm looking to build my own or purchase a wireless or corded handheld DC throttle for my new HO scale layout.  I've considered DCC, but with 70+ locomotives in my fleet, the cost of purchasing and installing decoders is prohibitive.

Any suggestions for DC throttles or build-it-yourself solutions?

Cheers,

Chris

Chris,

You might want to look into the new Aristo Craft Revolution. I use the Aristo Craft 10 Channel Train Engineer wireless radio throttles and like them very much. So do several other HO modelers I know.

The 10 channel Train Engineer is currently out of production, but Aristo my bring them back next year. Their new product, the Revolution is even more advanced yet still affordable. I have one but have yet to really use it on my layout.

A search of this fourm, the Aristo forum, and the Bachmann forum will provide lots of info I have posted about using Aristo wireless throttles in HO. Feel free to ask any specific questions.

Sheldon

    

  • Member since
    October 2006
  • From: Western, MA
  • 8,571 posts
Posted by richg1998 on Thursday, January 3, 2013 8:43 PM

NiCad and NiMh rechargeable batteries are 1.2 volts, each, not 1.5 volts and that can make a lot of difference if the equipment is not designed to use them.

Rich

If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 10,582 posts
Posted by mlehman on Thursday, January 3, 2013 9:50 PM

The Aristocraft radio throttle is also marketed under the Crest name. AFAIK, they're identical.

I purchased one to use with my large scale trains, but also used it as one of my two DC cabs on my layout briefly before I converted to DCC. It works as advertised and makes a good substitute if you're not making the leap to DCC. I can see it working well for one-person operation, but I suspect the combination of multiple channels and using block switches to assign power requires disciplined operators to avoid confusion in multi-operator situations.

Don't confuse these with another similar system offered by the same player(s), which is a DC radio system that uses special decoders in each loco to pick up the signal, so is much like DCC  except uses DC. The reviews on it weren't good and, I believe, it's been discontinued

Mike Lehman

Urbana, IL

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Maryland
  • 12,897 posts
Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Thursday, January 3, 2013 10:13 PM

mlehman

The Aristocraft radio throttle is also marketed under the Crest name. AFAIK, they're identical.

I purchased one to use with my large scale trains, but also used it as one of my two DC cabs on my layout briefly before I converted to DCC. It works as advertised and makes a good substitute if you're not making the leap to DCC. I can see it working well for one-person operation, but I suspect the combination of multiple channels and using block switches to assign power requires disciplined operators to avoid confusion in multi-operator situations.

Don't confuse these with another similar system offered by the same player(s), which is a DC radio system that uses special decoders in each loco to pick up the signal, so is much like DCC  except uses DC. The reviews on it weren't good and, I believe, it's been discontinued

Actually, with a well designed advanced DC cab control system like I use, and have built for others, there are no "block toggles" and it works very well with multiple operators.

Crest and Aristo are one in the same. All Aristo electrical items carry the "sub brand" Crest.

As I explained above, set to the correct channel/freq configuration there is no delay or cross talk and up to 10 throttles can be used at the same time. With the new Revolution it is even more.

Advanced DC systems use a number of different means to assign cabs to track sections other than "toggles". With the system I have developed, with a CTC dispatcher on duty, engineers have an experience just like DCC, they walk around with their throttle and control their loco - with one difference - they have to obey signals and train orders like in real life.

OR, without a dispatcher they can walk around the layout and assign their cab to progressive track sections with the alignment of a few turnouts and the push of a few buttons which are repeated around the layout in a progressive fashion that allows full walk around control. Complex routes through interlockings are automatically power routed by one button route selection at local tower panels. Again, the experience is much the same as DCC with local turnout control.

Sections are interlocked to prevent a loco from crossing into a section not controlled by their throttle, and interlockings are "interlocked" just like the real thing so that turnouts cannot be thrown under a train.

The "HO Train Engineer" onboard product you refer to worked fine, but Aristo never developed smaller recievers to allow its use in all sizes of locos. It is my understanding they are considering HO sized onboard recievers for their new Revolution product and they are not the only company in the "onboard radio" business - which may well be the wave of the future.

Sheldon 

 

    

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 10,582 posts
Posted by mlehman on Thursday, January 3, 2013 11:56 PM

Sheldon,

I don't doubt that you've built a great system, but that's something that you don't unpack from the box when you buy one of these throttles. Most folks are probably like me. They have an existing DC block system with two or more cabs. They plug the Aristo/Crest into a cab in place of the DC throttle it had. You're good to go via radio.

But most won't make any changes in the DC system. In my case, that would mean that someone could leave the block they vacated assigned to their cab. If someone crosses the gap from a block they control into one they don't, there's potential for a runaway. With just two cabs, not likely a big deal. But if you have one of those rotary switch set-ups with 8 cabs, for instance, it'll be anyone's guess who has control without physically looking at the block power switch to verify what it's set to, then matching that up with who has which controller. Plenty of opportunity for things to go wrong with that.

Which is not to say that this doesn't work great for the way you have your system set-up. However, when confronted with that level of wiring complexity and work, most who need that complex of a control system will simply conclude that DCC is gonna be easier to keep track of. Very few people take on building complex, multicab control system nowadays. Those that need such tend to go with DCC largely to avoid exactly that - the wiring, YMMV of course. t DCC does eliminate some of the costs, as well as most of the hassles of complex DC wiring (I know, not as much as some lead you to believe, but some nonetheless.)

I certainly agree that the radio throttles eliminate the hassle of cords and are worth it for that alone. But that's really all they do that's really different than old school DC control systems, while introducing the problem I noted, since with radio you can't "follow the cord" to see who is running a particular section of track.

Mike Lehman

Urbana, IL

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Maryland
  • 12,897 posts
Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Friday, January 4, 2013 6:54 AM

mlehman

Sheldon,

I don't doubt that you've built a great system, but that's something that you don't unpack from the box when you buy one of these throttles. Most folks are probably like me. They have an existing DC block system with two or more cabs. They plug the Aristo/Crest into a cab in place of the DC throttle it had. You're good to go via radio.

But most won't make any changes in the DC system. In my case, that would mean that someone could leave the block they vacated assigned to their cab. If someone crosses the gap from a block they control into one they don't, there's potential for a runaway. With just two cabs, not likely a big deal. But if you have one of those rotary switch set-ups with 8 cabs, for instance, it'll be anyone's guess who has control without physically looking at the block power switch to verify what it's set to, then matching that up with who has which controller. Plenty of opportunity for things to go wrong with that.

Which is not to say that this doesn't work great for the way you have your system set-up. However, when confronted with that level of wiring complexity and work, most who need that complex of a control system will simply conclude that DCC is gonna be easier to keep track of. Very few people take on building complex, multicab control system nowadays. Those that need such tend to go with DCC largely to avoid exactly that - the wiring, YMMV of course. t DCC does eliminate some of the costs, as well as most of the hassles of complex DC wiring (I know, not as much as some lead you to believe, but some nonetheless.)

I certainly agree that the radio throttles eliminate the hassle of cords and are worth it for that alone. But that's really all they do that's really different than old school DC control systems, while introducing the problem I noted, since with radio you can't "follow the cord" to see who is running a particular section of track.

Mike,

I will politely make this point again - The OP did NOT ask for a sales pitch on DCC, he asked about DC throttles.

For all we know he knows plenty about DC control and/or plenty about DCC (as do I since I operate regularly on a number DCC layouts, and have helped wire a few)

Maybe he is just a one man show, maybe he is familiar with MZL, progressive cab control, or Bruce Cubbs ORIGINAL integrated signal/cab control system - I put the offer out there to answer any additional questions he might have about applying the Aristo products to HO scale.

I did NOT try to "sell" him on what I do - Why are you trying to "sell" him DCC?

He made rather clear why he is not interested in DCC.

As for this idea that DCC reduces costs over complex DC systems, well that is just crazy unless you only plan to have 3 locos and your layout only fills a small bedroom.

As I have explained in the past, for the price of decoders in my 130 locos, I have eight wireless throttles, detection and signaling, simplified CTC, the option of central control or independent walk around control, collision avoidance, realistic working interlockings, one button route control of turnouts and more.

AND, before you say it, YES it is complext to build and wire - but so are the basement sized DCC layouts of my friends with DCC controled turnouts, computer dispatcher screens, multiple power and reversing districts.

And since I want CTC and SIGNALING - Those kinds of DCC layouts are the only FAIR comparision of DCC to my DC system.

The cost of eight DCC radio throttles, several boosters, and 130 decoders would far exceed what I have spent - and that would not include my signaling and turnout control.

Two last important thoughts - IF I wanted onboard sound, and thought it was worth the money, I would have DCC in a hot second - as it is the only pratical sound control medium out there right now -  AND if I did that, I could overlay DCC right into my signal and turnout control system with no problems since it does not use common rail wiring or DC power current detectors ( my detectors are inductive).

Sheldon

    

  • Member since
    October 2006
  • From: Western, MA
  • 8,571 posts
Posted by richg1998 on Friday, January 4, 2013 11:14 AM

I saw the OP seems to understand DCC that is why I did not try to "Convert" him to DCC. Yes, it would be an ego thing for me if I did convert him but that is clearly what he does not want.

I belong to many train forums and I see quite a few who switch over to DCC and many issues with wiring, locos, reverse loops, booster districts, etc. Some spend a lot of time trouble shooting instead of running trains.

Rich

If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 10,582 posts
Posted by mlehman on Saturday, January 5, 2013 1:25 AM

Sheldon,

I wasn't trying to "sell him on DCC" just trying to point out that you're not exactly presenting a turn-key DC solution to an issue that basically goes away with DCC -- block control -- presuming that as what he was worried about. The OP asked about a simple thing, what was available wireless or wired in the way of DC cabs. Without the wire or your complex add-on to the basic system, there are potential issues that he should be aware of in choosing a DC wireless cab.

If it's a two-cab DC system, then not a big deal with the wireless DC radio cabs AS I SPECIFICALLY NOTED TO AVOID ANY UNNECESSARY READING BETWEEN THE LINES.

Since he didn't ask about wiring a complex DC system in conjunction with the throttle question, I presume most of what you've gone on about at length is at least as equally unresponsive to his original question as anything I wrote. Smile

But I doubt there's much point in my playing web police over the matter. I'll leave that to others who seem to get their kicks out of that on a regular basis.

Mike Lehman

Urbana, IL

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Maryland
  • 12,897 posts
Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Saturday, January 5, 2013 7:57 AM

mlehman

Sheldon,

I wasn't trying to "sell him on DCC" just trying to point out that you're not exactly presenting a turn-key DC solution to an issue that basically goes away with DCC -- block control -- presuming that as what he was worried about. The OP asked about a simple thing, what was available wireless or wired in the way of DC cabs. Without the wire or your complex add-on to the basic system, there are potential issues that he should be aware of in choosing a DC wireless cab.

If it's a two-cab DC system, then not a big deal with the wireless DC radio cabs AS I SPECIFICALLY NOTED TO AVOID ANY UNNECESSARY READING BETWEEN THE LINES.

Since he didn't ask about wiring a complex DC system in conjunction with the throttle question, I presume most of what you've gone on about at length is at least as equally unresponsive to his original question as anything I wrote. Smile

But I doubt there's much point in my playing web police over the matter. I'll leave that to others who seem to get their kicks out of that on a regular basis.

Mike, That is disingenuous, prior to your post I said NOTHING about my advanced DC control system.

YOU interjected a comparison of DCC to "using block switches". That was what prompted my response mentioning more advanced DC systems.

All my prior posts addressed the OP's basic question or delt directly with misinformation posted by others - battery life, channel cross talk, antenna, etc when using the the Aristo Train Engineer.

My post to the OP about his original question:

"Chris,

You might want to look into the new Aristo Craft Revolution. I use the Aristo Craft 10 Channel Train Engineer wireless radio throttles and like them very much. So do several other HO modelers I know.

The 10 channel Train Engineer is currently out of production, but Aristo my bring them back next year. Their new product, the Revolution is even more advanced yet still affordable. I have one but have yet to really use it on my layout."

A search of this forum, the Aristo forum, and the Bachmann forum will provide lots of info I have posted about using Aristo wireless throttles in HO. Feel free to ask any specific questions.

Sheldon"

My only other comment about control systems prior to your first post:

"Toggle flipping is a separate topic, but my control system handles eight trains with no block toggles - but I do have signals and CTC."

All my comments to you about my control system where later in response to this from you:

" I can see it working well for one-person operation, but I suspect the combination of multiple channels and using block switches to assign power requires disciplined operators to avoid confusion in multi-operator situations."

More misinformation to which I offered an alternative view - but not until you used it to bring DCC into the discussion after the OP had made his reasons for not wanting DCC clear.

How would you feel if you posted a DCC question and I suggested the answer to your decoder programing problem was to use DC and get rid of those pesky decoders?

You would say I was out of line - and I would be.

But there is an endless double standard on here regarding this. Seems on every DC question there is at least one poster who suggests the "answer" is to use DCC - even when those asking have already made it clear they are not loooking for that answer.

I kept my responses on task to the people I quoted and addressed statements or questions specifically.

AND, DCC is no more "out of the box turn key" than anything else. You have learn how to program decoders, hook up reversers, remember access sequences on key pads, etc - all different from actually wiring something, but tasks you must master none the less.

Sheldon

    

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,281 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, January 5, 2013 8:04 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

But there is an endless double standard on here regarding this. Seems on every DC question there is at least one poster who suggests the "answer" is to use DCC - even when those asking have already made it clear they are not loooking for that answer.

For a very long time, I have felt that the title of this section of the forum, Electronics and DCC, lends to the problem. 

I really wish that there were two sections, Electronics and DC, and, Electronics and DCC.

It wouldn't completely solve the problem, but at least it might alleviate it somewhat.

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Maryland
  • 12,897 posts
Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Saturday, January 5, 2013 11:38 AM

richhotrain

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

But there is an endless double standard on here regarding this. Seems on every DC question there is at least one poster who suggests the "answer" is to use DCC - even when those asking have already made it clear they are not loooking for that answer.

For a very long time, I have felt that the title of this section of the forum, Electronics and DCC, lends to the problem. 

I really wish that there were two sections, Electronics and DC, and, Electronics and DCC.

It wouldn't completely solve the problem, but at least it might alleviate it somewhat.

Rich

That might help, but another solution would be for people to actually understand the use of the word "and" in the English language.

AND, for them to understand that there are "electronics" in model railroading that do not involve DCC.

The title is after all "Electronics (first idea) and (a conjuction meaning "in addition to") DCC (second idea)", whereas the two ideas may or may not be directly related to each other.

If the intent of those who created the forum was to only discuss DCC Electronics, that would have been the title - "DCC Electronics".

Sheldon

    

  • Member since
    October 2006
  • From: Western, MA
  • 8,571 posts
Posted by richg1998 on Saturday, January 5, 2013 12:48 PM

richhotrain

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

But there is an endless double standard on here regarding this. Seems on every DC question there is at least one poster who suggests the "answer" is to use DCC - even when those asking have already made it clear they are not loooking for that answer.

For a very long time, I have felt that the title of this section of the forum, Electronics and DCC, lends to the problem. 

I really wish that there were two sections, Electronics and DC, and, Electronics and DCC.

It wouldn't completely solve the problem, but at least it might alleviate it somewhat.

Rich

Some never take time to learn how to use the forums.

Look at those who ask in the General forum about electrical/electronic questions.

Those who advocate DCC right away have an agenda, anyway.

Rich

If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.

  • Member since
    February 2002
  • From: Reading, PA
  • 30,002 posts
Posted by rrinker on Saturday, January 5, 2013 1:33 PM

 Yes, to get people to use the most flexible control system currently available.

I think it is fairly foolish for anyone just starting to go with a DC cab control system, unless they have a really simple layout - and even then, I really think DCC can have a greater advantages on a small layout then on a large one - to allow lots of operation flexibility on a small layout would need absurdly small blocks.

Yes, I KNOW - MZL is NOT cab control. I KNOW it allows DCC-like freedom to run the trains without worrying about block power assignments. I also know that when you have beginners who are struggling to simply connect more than one feeder set to a single power pack, good luck getting them to understand MZL. It's COMPLICATE - regardless if every component is individually pretty simple (switches, relays, and contacts) the interconnections are anything but. Yes, building blocks, multiple replicas of the same thing. But I stand by the statement that there are far FEWER wires with decoder installs and DCC to the rails - if you count the internal circuitry of the command station, throttle, and decoder - yes, DCC is much more complex, but there is no reaosn whatsoever for the average user to treat it as more than a blakc box - these two wires to teh rail pickups, these two to the motor terminals, and these two to the headlight. Only the total geek needs concern themselves with the internals of it all (guilty as charged). One does not have to understand the technical details of the NMRA DCC specs to be able to use it.

It DOES make perfect sense that if you ALREADY HAVE a workable DC system that doesn't need switch flipping to run trains, that you keep such a system and continue using it. If you only have a simple 2 cab toggle control system though, both DCC or an MZL system would give far greater operating flexibility, and of the two, DCC will be easier to install in most every case.

                 --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Maryland
  • 12,897 posts
Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Saturday, January 5, 2013 2:36 PM

rrinker

 Yes, to get people to use the most flexible control system currently available.

I think it is fairly foolish for anyone just starting to go with a DC cab control system, unless they have a really simple layout - and even then, I really think DCC can have a greater advantages on a small layout then on a large one - to allow lots of operation flexibility on a small layout would need absurdly small blocks.

Yes, I KNOW - MZL is NOT cab control. I KNOW it allows DCC-like freedom to run the trains without worrying about block power assignments. I also know that when you have beginners who are struggling to simply connect more than one feeder set to a single power pack, good luck getting them to understand MZL. It's COMPLICATE - regardless if every component is individually pretty simple (switches, relays, and contacts) the interconnections are anything but. Yes, building blocks, multiple replicas of the same thing. But I stand by the statement that there are far FEWER wires with decoder installs and DCC to the rails - if you count the internal circuitry of the command station, throttle, and decoder - yes, DCC is much more complex, but there is no reaosn whatsoever for the average user to treat it as more than a blakc box - these two wires to teh rail pickups, these two to the motor terminals, and these two to the headlight. Only the total geek needs concern themselves with the internals of it all (guilty as charged). One does not have to understand the technical details of the NMRA DCC specs to be able to use it.

It DOES make perfect sense that if you ALREADY HAVE a workable DC system that doesn't need switch flipping to run trains, that you keep such a system and continue using it. If you only have a simple 2 cab toggle control system though, both DCC or an MZL system would give far greater operating flexibility, and of the two, DCC will be easier to install in most every case.

                 --Randy

 

The point remains that people should be able to ask a simple question about DC without being bombarded with "you should just switch to DCC".

ESPECIALLY when in their original post they express why that is not what they want to do.

DCC easier to install? That depends on a lot factors - layout size, number of locos, desired additional features like signaling, CTC, advanced control of turnouts, staging yard monitoring, etc.

I have told lots people on here they should use DCC - when they ask a question to which that is the answer - a newby who wants sound - DCC no question. Planning on lots of operators on a small amount of track - DCC is far and away the best solution. Want to model helper service - DCC likely the easiest way.

BUT, the answer to the question "what is a good DC hand held throttle" is not "just switch to DCC". 

Most flexible control system? - Maybe - easiest to use - not necessarily.

It is at best condescending to think you know what is better for others when they have already told you that is not what they want. Especially people you really know nothing about.

Randy, RE-READ this thread - I made NO pitch for MZL, or progressive cab control or and other DC system UNTIL the "you really should just go with DCC" stuff started. Even then I made no "pitch" to the OP - I simply countered the anti DC misinformation. And made it clear from the start that what I did was complex, andvanced and included signaling and CTC.

ALL I did was correct misinformation from others with FACTS, and answer the OP's question based on my knowledge and experiance, and offered more info if he required or was interested in same.

I even tried to just blow off the first "toggle flipping" comment.

Randy, one more thing, this comment:

I think it is fairly foolish for anyone just starting to go with a DC cab control system, unless they have a really simple layout - and even then, I really think DCC can have a greater advantages on a small layout then on a large one - to allow lots of operation flexibility on a small layout would need absurdly small blocks.

Your view of foolish makes several assumptions - but if someone said they wanted to operate multiple trains on a small layout - I'm in agreement with you.

I have long stopped assuming others want to do what I want to do, a view some of the rest of you might want to consider.

Sheldon

    

Moderator
  • Member since
    June 2003
  • From: Northeast OH
  • 17,249 posts
Posted by tstage on Saturday, January 5, 2013 3:29 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

The point remains that people should be able to ask a simple question about DC without being bombarded with "you should just switch to DCC"...

BUT, the answer to the question "what is a good DC hand held throttle" is not "just switch to DCC"...

Randy, RE-READ this thread - I made NO pitch for MZL, or progressive cab control or and other DC system UNTIL the "you really should just go with DCC" stuff started...

"Bombarded"..."just switch to DCC"..."you really should just go with DCC".  Sheldon, I've browsed through this thread twice now and I have yet to read anyone's comments that even comes close to implying what you are saying.  Most folks have commented on their own DC experiences and offered advice.

Is it wrong to tell the OP in a post-script not to completely dismiss DCC because of the cost factor of converting their large roster - i.e. 70+ locomotives?  It's not like the OP said, "I have no interest in DCC at all".  The OP said he "considered" it.  Texas Zephyr merely stated that he, himself, was in a similar situation with his fleet but made the switch to DCC anyhow.  All he did was share his own experiences with both DC and DCC.  I would hardly call that "bombarding" and telling someone to "just switch to DCC".

This is called a discussion forum for a reason.  Don't take others comments or views as a personal attack.

Tom

https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling

Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.

  • Member since
    November 2014
  • 4 posts
Posted by SEBASTIEN BOLLE on Wednesday, February 4, 2015 8:05 PM

I have an Aristocraft throttle system, and it works very well. It does gobble rechargeable batteries like nuts, but a set of disposable batts last me weeks. I too faced the decision of wether or not to convert to DCC, and I'm still running DC and loving every minute of it. 

-Sebastien Bolle

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Maryland
  • 12,897 posts
Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Thursday, February 5, 2015 9:00 PM

SEBASTIEN BOLLE

I have an Aristocraft throttle system, and it works very well. It does gobble rechargeable batteries like nuts, but a set of disposable batts last me weeks. I too faced the decision of wether or not to convert to DCC, and I'm still running DC and loving every minute of it. 

-Sebastien Bolle

 

Rechargeable batteries are a bad choice for the Aristo Train Engineer because of their lower voltage when compared to regular alkaline batteries. As you have noticed you will get much longer life from regular alkaline batteries in the Train Engineer.

Sheldon 

    

  • Member since
    January 2015
  • From: Southern California
  • 1,682 posts
Posted by Lone Wolf and Santa Fe on Thursday, February 5, 2015 10:00 PM

I have two CMI Super Blue transformers with walk around throttles that feature momentum and braking. I love them. They work great and are still going strong since the 90s. They out lived the company but I saw that the same transformer is now USA Trains Train Power 10. It uses phone jacks so you can plug them in at several different locations. I highly recommend for DC layouts.

http://www.usatrains.com/usatrainspowerpacks.html

Modeling a fictional version of California set in the 1990s Lone Wolf and Santa Fe Railroad

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

Users Online

There are no community member online

Search the Community

ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
Model Railroader Newsletter See all
Sign up for our FREE e-newsletter and get model railroad news in your inbox!