If NCE,MRC & Digit-- are the main stays, Why have NONE of them come out with a larger LCD screen with more information displayed? Why aren't they using touchscreen to make it alot easier for beginners? From what I have seen, a person has to remember everything or carry around the manual. Just wondering...What with all the techonlogy around.
Jack,
Because that requires some considerable cost for development. Most of these DCC companies are cottage (small) businesses that don't have a lot of capital to do that sort of thing. (When it comes to developing a product, they try to buy off-the-shelf components as much as possible to keep costs low.) This is in contrast to larger companies (e.g. cell phones developers like Nokia and LG) that have a MUCH larger market and can afford investing in continual changing technology.
Let's say you are a DCC system manufacturer and you want to upgrade to a touch screen:
You also have to consider how you are going to house the larger screen:
This costs both time and money to develop. Changes - even small ones - open a larger can of worms than one might think or anticipate.
So, do you want it more affordable or do you want it cutting edge? If you want cutting edge then you're going to have to pay the price for it. If you are willing to pay the price then you might want to consider Zimo or ECoS. (FYI: The reviewed systems in the links are now over 5 years old. However, they may have newer systems on the market by this time.)
For most commonly used actions, you don't really need the manual. In fact, most systems will walk you through the process. I use the NCE Power Cab and find the format very intuitive for basic operation. For more complicated operations (e.g. programming a locomotive or changing CVs), it takes you through a menu and asks you questions.
Jack, I don't know if you've personally tried any DCC systems or not. I think that you'll find that they are more intuitive then they appear on the surface.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
There's really not that much to remember just to run trains. How much information do you need? The common systems all display the address of the loco you are controlling, the speed, the direction, and the status of the function controls.
Are we running trains or playing video games?
Tom hit on the main point though, fancy touch screens are NOT cheap. Just because you cna get a fancy phone for $99 or less doesn;t mean that's the cost - those prices are with 2 year contracts, adn over the life of the contract you are paying a FORTUNE for it. Take out sodts for actually providing the cellular data pipe, and you are pay well over $1000 for those phones. And they make those in the MILLIONS. I'd be suprised if there is any one single DCC throttle that has sole a million units. Quantity makes a huge difference - small example, go see how much it costs for a pack of resistors at Radio Shack. Then check how much they are at say Mouser in a pack of 1000.
There are some systems that have color LCD touch screens. They are more popular in Europe, partly because of the fact that having 4 digits for a loco number just does not work with typical Euro railroad practices, so some other method of relating the loco to the decoder address is needed. My question is, if I have a fleet of 5 RS3's, how do I tell one from the other by a relatively low resolution image? Even a high res screen, the number on the cba in the picture will be tinier than the plain number displayed in most any popular brand of DCC throttle.
With all of the main brands except MRC, you can use an iPhone or Android phone as a tablet, through JMRI. The throttle display is the same no matter which brand of DCC system is being used.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
COST - Other than MRC, the two others are really small operations(and they are the two big DCC players in the US). There are European based system available that do have lots of color graphics and touch screens(ECOS/Zimo). And the cost of these system will floor you.
I agree that the 'learning curve' of the present systems can be trying at times, but there is some basics you need to learn - It is not just 'point & shoot' at this point. Both NCE and Digitrax have large 'Super Throttles' that can program and are easy to use. They also have low cost 'utility' throttles that are not for programming or other fancy functions. They can just run a train and are preferred by many 'operators'. They are small hand-held units that can be used with a single hand.
Myself, I have a Digitrax system, and have a DT400 series throttle that I did use for programming - That job is now done with Decoder Pro from my computer. I have a pair of old DT100R wireless throttles that are given to operators. Without the extra function capability, pressing the 'wrong' button does not shut down operations of the layout.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Really because there is already a free way to work it now. With JMRI and a computer interface you can program locomotives in a java based system that is easy to read and program. Also with an app for apple and Android you can run trains off of your cell phone or tablet.
Also last year at the NTS there was a company showing a product that would run off of a tablet and have a wifi to loconet interface for Digitrax.
http://www.overlooklabs.com/OverLookLabs.com/Welcome.html
So with these outside options already and the cost to build something that is dedicated to a system I am not surprised they are not offering there own product.
Chris
Check out my railroad at: Buffalo and Southwestern
Photos at:Flicker account
YouTube:StellarMRR YouTube account
Something else to consider with TS user interfaces: they require the user to look at the screen, not the train. With physical buttons/knobs/wheels, the user quickly learns where the common controls are by feel, and has tactile feedback when he's on a control vs halfway between controls. That's hard to do with a TS. Sure, you can make the throttle slider large enough to not have to look down to find it, but what about the function buttons, etc.? How much room is left for them, and can you find them without looking?
Andy
Another good point. Anyone doing even rudimentary operation is generally not switching back and forth between multiple locos, so the whole selection thing is a one time deal, for an extended period of time. Then maybe select another loco and run that. And really, the selection process is pretty much identical for all brands. Which brings up another thing - some brands like to advertise a huge recall stage to reselect previously used addresses. However, the maximim number of button presses on any of the popular systems is 6 - a select button, the up to 4 digits of the address, and an enter key. Doesn't matter if you have 2 locos or 200. Now, if you select via some sort of touch screen by a picture - how long does it take to scroll through a library of 200 locos to find the one you want? Or enter some sort of search criteria, or browse through a hierarchical menu (Locos...diesel...4 axle..)?
Normally when I am runnign trains my DT400 is held down at my side, with my thumb on the knob to control speed AND just click on it to reverse, leaving my other hand free to operate an uncoupling skewer or hold the car cards. I'm pretty good with my iPhone, but I can't operate it without looking, and I have to periodically look at it when using withrottle to make sure my finder is still in the throttle slide area.
Hey
I don't know about the other controllers but on my NCE Power Cab, to program on the programming track the owners manual says to push prog/esc 4 times. Until I looked in the back of the owners manual this seemed arbitrary. There is, what amounts to a road map. Pushing prog. 4 times takes you to the 4th street turn right and follow the on screen directions. In the old days they called this map, the computer tree.
(branching limbs?)
Have fun.
Lee
You might want to check this out: IntelliBox II by Ulhenbrock. Unfortunately my internet is running like a dog tonight. If you want to know more let me know.
tetonjack If NCE,MRC & Digit-- are the main stays, Why have NONE of them come out with a larger LCD screen with more information displayed? Why aren't they using touchscreen to make it alot easier for beginners? From what I have seen, a person has to remember everything or carry around the manual. Just wondering...What with all the techonlogy around.
Don't worry, DCC iPhone/iPad apps will be out any minute now...
Metro Red Line Don't worry, DCC iPhone/iPad apps will be out any minute now...
There are already applications for iPhone and Android that provide throttle capability via the JMRI interdace. Digitrax demonstrated a direct control application a couple of years ago at the NTS, but the developer never completed the application so it has not yet come to market. Apparently it still may?
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Large screens also use more battery power. My son uses his android phone at times but there is a delay. Having said that, I would like the option to buy a throttle with a GUI.
Richard
stilson4283 Really because there is already a free way to work it now. With JMRI and a computer interface you can program locomotives in a java based system that is easy to read and program. Also with an app for apple and Android you can run trains off of your cell phone or tablet. Also last year at the NTS there was a company showing a product that would run off of a tablet and have a wifi to loconet interface for Digitrax. http://www.overlooklabs.com/OverLookLabs.com/Welcome.html So with these outside options already and the cost to build something that is dedicated to a system I am not surprised they are not offering there own product. Chris
Have you used this? What is the model/PN for the digitrax required hardware? Is there any delay?
We don't need DCC controllers with touchscreens. What we DO need are DCC systems with built-in USB, Bluetooth and Wi-Fi capability, so we can use the touch screen devices we already have!
Seriously, USB has been out for over 15 years...we have phones and even cheap computer accessory devices with USB. It should not be an optional add-on anymore. But in 2013, not a single DCC system has built-in USB?!?! THAT's that real problem there.
simon1966 Metro Red Line Don't worry, DCC iPhone/iPad apps will be out any minute now... There are already applications for iPhone and Android that provide throttle capability via the JMRI interdace. Digitrax demonstrated a direct control application a couple of years ago at the NTS, but the developer never completed the application so it has not yet come to market. Apparently it still may?
Yes, I've seen some people from a local N scale club operate trains using WiThrottle. But what I'm talking about is an IOS/Android app that allows you to program CVs from the phone. Imagine if our DCC systems had bluetooth or WiFi BUILT IN!
Or we can dream big and have a DCC protocol that runs entirely wireless. As in, point your phone towards a loco and control its functions or program CVs into it...As in, vehicles and accessories that operate wirelessly.
Metro Red Line We don't need DCC controllers with touchscreens. What we DO need are DCC systems with built-in USB, Bluetooth and Wi-Fi capability, so we can use the touch screen devices we already have! Seriously, USB has been out for over 15 years...we have phones and even cheap computer accessory devices with USB. It should not be an optional add-on anymore. But in 2013, not a single DCC system has built-in USB?!?! THAT's that real problem there.
It would sure make updates/connections easier. But maybe that's the deal, they want to use their proprietary protocol?