Okay I just can't seem to wrap my brain around this.
Geting ready to purchase the Peco track and switches for a DCC layout.
So what switches elctrofrogs or insul frogs?
Thanks.
The one, and not the other. Okay, both.
The answer, conventionally, is that the DCC-friendly variety, the insulated frogs, are better for most users. However, it isn't quite so cut-'n-dry. A big problem can come from dead frogs when you try to run iffy locos over them where their pickup is poor, or where they have excellent pickup but on a really short wheelbase.
As examples, my little Walthers Proto 2000 SW-8 doesn't give me problems on insulated frogs, even on my long curved hand-built #10. It manages. A little 0-4-0 docksider, a steamer, will probably be hooped. A modern longer steamer, say a 4-6-2 with good tender pickup, or larger articulated engines on the market these days, will do just fine. So, while you would generally be advised to use the insulfrog turnouts with DCC, it ain't necessarily so in all cases. Many report using the electrofrog with DCC and doing very well. Fine metal wheelsets in gauge, or ones in semi-scale, say, are probably going to be safe. If it turns out that you get troubles with electrified frogs with some of your locomotives, you might be further ahead getting the isolated frogs in the insulfrog turnouts, but electrifying them from below with a feeder. Unfortunately, it means connecting the frog to a polarity reverser so that the frog is bearing the same polarity as the closure rail the train is using.
Do you have a headache yet?
Crandell
Here are two rules to live by.
1 - If you have to ask, you want to use Insulfrog.
2 - Those who need to use Electrofrog already know it.
Rich
Alton Junction
LION agrees with that! Him could not said it better himself.
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
When I began building my layout I was using a combination of Atlas and Peco switches, all insulfrog. I was running with DC at the time. Occasionally I would notice the headlights blink when the loco's would be on the switches. When I switched to DCC I began to have problems with loco's shorting the system while running on the switches. Deeper investigation showed that the wheels of the locos and sometimes metal wheels on cars were bridging both rails on the back end of the frogs causing short circuits. A little dab of nailpolish to extend the insulation worked well to eliminate the problem. But it must be reapplied occasionally. The same situation developed at my club when we switched to DCC. It also occurs with N scale track as well as HO. I would still recommend using insulfrog switches.
A picture is usually worth a thousand words so look at the link. Take your time. At least someone can help you if you stll have questions. Having common ground can help a lot.
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_peco.htm
I hope this will not confuse you. Store the link in Favorites.
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
I use only Peco switches on my DCC layout. Insulfrogs are probably the easiest to install and will just fine unless running the shortest of wheel base steamers or older / cheaper locos that only pick up track power from one of the trucks.
I recently purchased Electrofrog turnouts, inadvertanly, and they were easy enough to install with just a little more work to cut gaps where needed.
Remember both types are power routing, not a problem if feeders are in place past the diverging route.
Lots of good advice, especially richotrain.
The only thing not mentioned so far is that Electrofrog will require some sort of control to power the frog. That may be contacts off a switch machine or other electronics. Whatever you choose you are adding more electrical complexity to your layout.
On my layout I've used live frogs with Frog Juicer boards to power the frogs. Very easy to wire and quite reliable.
Stay safe. Dwayne A
da1The only thing not mentioned so far is that Electrofrog will require some sort of control to power the frog.
Now on the other hand if you are one of those who removes that spring, it is a different story because then there might not be enough tension on the point rail to make a good contact with the lead rails.
Maybe not at first, but the spring tension on the points is less than the pressure exerted by a fresh rail joiner. ANd rail joiners are not a reliable method of conducting electricity in the long term. Nor shoudl the mere spring tension of the points against the stock rail be relied upon for long term operation.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker Maybe not at first, but the spring tension on the points is less than the pressure exerted by a fresh rail joiner. ANd rail joiners are not a reliable method of conducting electricity in the long term. Nor shoudl the mere spring tension of the points against the stock rail be relied upon for long term operation.
I have found the bigger enemy to reliable operation is ballast!
My current Santa Fe laid its first rails in 1983 and was pretty much complete in 1985. Since then I replace a few things, etc. but the layout remains pretty much as built. I used Peco switches, both variety, and have had generally excellent operation. I have learned to add a few wires when and if the railjoiner fails, but overall, have had very few failures. Basically I use the switch (insul or other) to fit the situation.
As for rail joiners, I do solder them, I also run a buss around all three decks of the layout and have plenty of feeders to each rail joiner area, so "very seldom" do I have a joiner fail, but if you fit them on the two rails with rails clean, then the rail joiner will do just fine 99 percent of time (nothing is perfect). I do run feeders only as a precaution. I even have a helix running between middle and top deck and have not had a electrical failure yet.
So you "pays your money and takes your choice". I will add one additional conditional consideration. No two situations or railroads are exactly alike, so do what works for you on YOUR layout and you will probably be happy as I am.
Bob
All good posts, thanks.
Having done some more reading and shopping it would appear I really have no choice but go with electrofrogs. There are very few Peco options avavilable in Insulfrog.
Soldering doesn't scare me it just seems way to much work to make the switches work or at list work well. I now wonder why the switches don't come more "ready to run" than they do.
At last count I need 61 switches for my layout. Not sure of size yet but guess I will start with a hand full and go from there. I will be printing out the templates Peco has on ther web site.
Mark
61 switches, that is a lot of turnouts.
Make sure you shop for some deep discount pricing.
You will probably have a tough time finding all 61 in one place.
I dunno, I've used Atlas for years and I've never had one fail and I've never had to do any work, just place them and go.
Make sure your wheels are all in guage and you should be fine. The biggest concern on so-called "non DCC friendly" turnouts is the back of the wheel on the stock rail contacting the open side of the points, since both point rails will have the same polarity as the closed side. Shouldn't really even be possible for in in-guage wheelset to do this unless it derails. All the extra work and modifications are aimed at making the two point and closure rails insulated from one another and giving the open one the same polarity as the adjacent stock rail, meaing such back to back contact is no longer a short. But again, I really fon;t see how this could even be happening - IF the wheels are in gauge.The minimim back to back check gauge is wider than the distance between the point rails.
There's always DIY, either Central Valley Kits or Fast Tracks, the fast Tracks ones build into DCC friendly turnoputs with easily powered frogs and meet all NMRA standards, no issues whatsoever. Initial tooling costs are high to get the jigs (yes I know, you can build turnouts without jigs and fixtures - well, I can't) but if all 61 you need are the same frog angle, in the end the cost per will average out to much less than the price of a Peco.
ToenailSoldering doesn't scare me it just seems way to much work to make the switches work or at list work well.
And that is only if you really want to run the extra wire to the frog tracks. If not, the only "extra" work is the two insulated rail joiners.
Gidday. A diagram that may help.
Cheers,the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."