JnJ,
From your description of the problem, it sounds like the system is shorting, then resetting itself, permitting the loco to move on. It could be a power setting issue with the PSX-AR or a wiring/gapping issue, or both.
You seem to have way too many rail gaps, so it is difficult to tell exactly which tracks are part of the reversing section.
The blue colored rail gaps are fine. They isolate that loop on the bottom left.
But, the red colored rail gaps seem to be all over the place. Can you specify which tracks are part of the troublesome reversing section?
Had this troublesome reversing section worked at all before it starting acting up? A little while back you seemed to have everything operating correctly.
Are you satisfied that the reversing section is wired correctly and that there are adequate feeder wires?
Rich
Alton Junction
I have to agree with Rich. You made way too many blocks and gaps for that sized railroad.
I have a 15'x22' HO layout, and the only place I have gaps are the reversing section. Never had the "need to isolate sections" for easier troubleshooting.
You made things harder on yourself. Simplify things, and get rid of all those gaps, except of course for that reversing section.
The K.I.S.S. method. (keep it simple stupid)
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
Ctaching up on this thread because I also use PSX-AR reversers. That work flawlessly EXCEPT for one loop. This is in HO, so none of that frog weirdness involved, with a NCE Powerhouse 5 amp system
This doesn't happen all the time. I have tried some adjusting of the jumpers, which seemed to help. But often when I first try to use the loop when the system is powered up, it will not work, loco stalls. I used to spend some time analyzing it when it happened. Now, I just ignore it, get the 0-5-0 out, then proceed as normal. For whatever reason, once the PSX-AR "learns" what it should be doing by failing, it seems to work after that, at least for the power session. Mostly, because sometimes it just stays stupid and still causes trouble, but that is less frequent after the jumper move I made.
The only thing a little different is that the PSX-AR was twinned with a wye on the deck above, but I never tried to use both at the same time, so that shouldn't be the problem. IIRC, I installed my spare PSX-AR to control the lower loop only to see if that helped. Didn't make any difference, so likely not a specific issue with one PSX-AR. Points toward a gap issue, but I can't figure out what it might be. It's just a loop of track nothing weird other than it starts off one side of a small industrial area and goes around back to the other side. My guess is that it's either a jumper config or a gap issue
I don't know if it's the same issue that the OP has now, but sounds similar.
Anyone have a better take than the manual does on setting the jumpers?
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Right now, I'm laughing at myself. I figured after building and tweaking my large and elaborate saltwater reeftank that this would be a breeze to build. On top of that I'm well versed with DC electrical after 17 years of working on cars and building cars for people with disabilities. So with that said, I feel like a complete idiot who can't figure out how to make a two wire train system run without shorting out....
My reasoning for the many gaps was to make things easier to trouble shoot when something failed. I've learned that was a dumb mistake the hard way, lol. I also wish that I had found this forum before I started building and wiring this layout. Probably would have had less confusion over those two stupid wires!
So..... can someone or someone's give me suggestions on where the rail gaps should be placed. My logic was obviously wrong. The thought process I was going with for the many gaps on the bottom level was for this reason: the lower level is one large reverse loop starting from the ramp to the upper level.It contains at least two other reverse loops inside of the large one. I figured that because there were so many loops, it would be best to make sections of the loops reverse instead of the whole loop. At this point I'm convinced that there is a better way to wire and gap this.
I have installed the jumpers on the PSX-AR's by soldering a small wire to terminals 1 and 2 of connector J6. I think I screwed up on something though. I set CV49 to 1 instead of 0. I was told to jump the J6 and then set CV49 to 1 by tony's train exchange. Reading the instructions they differ. My bigger problem is this. When I installed them I had to set each with a unique address then set the CV. Well in my infinite wisdom I failed to write down the address that I used and now I have no clue to what I used. How do I undo my stupidity?
On another note, is there anyone who has been replying to this post in the Vermont area? If so would you be willing to make a house call?
I appreciate all that haven't given up yet and still helping.
If I follow your diagram correctly, the blue gaps are fine and that represents a reverse loop.
As to the red gaps, you only need to gap the rails in three places. The first two sets of gaps should be placed at the ends of the divergent tracks on those two turnouts colored yellow and orange.
Then, if you trace down that yellow colored section of track past the two red gaps shown on your diagram, once those two gaps are removed, you can place the third set of gaps anywhere on that curve all the way around to the next turnout.
So, leave the blue gaps, remove all of the red gaps, and then gap in the three spots that I just mentioned. The second auto-reverser controls the resulting reversing section.
All of the track outside of those two reversing sections (blue and red) should be wired the same way, in phase, to form the main section of the layout.
Regarding the PSX-AR. There should be a way to reset it back to defaults. I don't remember, just call Tony's trains and tell them what you did.
JnJ'slittletrain Right now, I'm laughing at myself. I figured after building and tweaking my large and elaborate saltwater reeftank that this would be a breeze to build. On top of that I'm well versed with DC electrical after 17 years of working on cars and building cars for people with disabilities. So with that said, I feel like a complete idiot who can't figure out how to make a two wire train system run without shorting out.... My reasoning for the many gaps was to make things easier to trouble shoot when something failed. I've learned that was a dumb mistake the hard way, lol. I also wish that I had found this forum before I started building and wiring this layout. Probably would have had less confusion over those two stupid wires! So..... can someone or someone's give me suggestions on where the rail gaps should be placed. My logic was obviously wrong. The thought process I was going with for the many gaps on the bottom level was for this reason: the lower level is one large reverse loop starting from the ramp to the upper level.It contains at least two other reverse loops inside of the large one. I figured that because there were so many loops, it would be best to make sections of the loops reverse instead of the whole loop. At this point I'm convinced that there is a better way to wire and gap this.
In my experience, the best way to wire a layout with one or more reverse loops is to draw a two rail track diagram, using a colored coded schematic. For example, if you color one rail red and the other rail blue, the two rails should always match colorwise. Whenever there is mismatch in the color of the rails, that is a point of reverse polarity.
It is also helpful to limit the number of rail gaps to the minimum number required to completely isolate the reversing section.
It is also helpful to limit the size of the reversing section to be as long as, but no longer, than the longest train that will pass through it.
Once the rail gaps are in place, there are a few wiring conventions that are critical to trouble-free operation. First, the input side of the reversing mechanism should be wired from the main bus. Second, all of the feeder wires from the reversing section should be connected into the output side of the reversing mechanism. Third, no feeder wires from the main bus should be directly connected to any rails inside the reversing section.
I use the Digitrax AR-1 on my layout, and I have several of them. They are simple to install, simple to wire, and simple to operate. I have no experience with the PSX-AR, but from everything that I hear and read about it, it is complicated because it tries to accomplish too many electrical tasks. As others have indicated, part or all of your current problem may be the result of the way you installed and wired the PSX-AR.
Let me make a suggestion to you regarding the auo-reversers. As to the reverse loop with the blue colored rail gaps, that appears to be OK. If it is performing properly, leave it alone. As to the reversing section that is colored yellow / orange in you diagram, re-gap that reversing section properly and remove all of the unnecessary gaps. Disconnect the PSX-AR to that section and install a DPDT toggle switch in its place. You can manually operate that DPDT switch until you are satisfied that the reversing section is performing properly. Then, you can re-install the PSX-AR and work out the kinks in the way that it needs to be wired and powered.
This isn't rocket science and if you can set up a salt water tank and wire a car's DC electrical system, you sure can handle the wiring and gapping reversing sections on a DCC layout.
One final note. For now, forget about power districts and all of that stuff. Treat your layout as one large main section with a reverse loop on one end on the upper level and a reversing section on the lower level. As Motley said, KISS.
So if I understand you right Rich, gap the rails like in the above picture. The red sections would go to the output of a reverser and the blue would go to a main bus feed. Would this work the way I have it drawn out? The other question I have is: the section I labled A is fairly short. Would it make more sense to move the gaps to the other side of the turnout that is on the right and blue? Then gap the the other two tracks? Other than the short section, I think the way I have it drawn out will work.
Are auto reverseres supposed to work in either direcion? What I mean by this is; do you always have to enter a reverse section in the same leg or can you pick either leg you want to?
Part of the reason I chose this layout was so that my daughter and I could run trains in multiple directions and sections before she gets bored of watching a train go in a circle.
I spoke with Tony's today. The PSX-AR doeen't actually get programmed to a specific loco ID but rather you use a loco ID that isn't in use by any of the locomotives in your collection. Then you go to CV 49 and set it to what you need to. The guy I spoke to said that if you jumped out the appriate pins of J6, then its not necesary to set the CV 49.
No, what he means is that you draw the plan with both rails showing. Take a red pen, and put it on one of the rails, adn trace the entire layout without lifting the pen. Take a blue pen and do the same with the other raill. Follow turnouts in both positions - botht he straight through and diverging routes. If ever the blue line touches the red line head on (blue)---><----(red) you have a reversing section
Try it on a trvial layout - simple oval. Make the red line the outside raila nd the blue line the inside rail, You will see they can't possibly touch, so all is good.
Now add the 'classic' reverse loop - put a turnout on each long side of the oval with a diagonal track connecting them. You will see red touches blue in the moddle of the diagonal track, on both rails.
Now try with your actual track plan and find the reverse loops.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I knew what he meant, I just wanted to make sure that what he was thinking for placement of rail gaps and my interpitation of his rail gaps would be in the same place
JnJ'slittletrain SNIP I spoke with Tony's today. The PSX-AR doeen't actually get programmed to a specific loco ID but rather you use a loco ID that isn't in use by any of the locomotives in your collection. Then you go to CV 49 and set it to what you need to. The guy I spoke to said that if you jumped out the appriate pins of J6, then its not necesary to set the CV 49.
SNIP
JnJ's,
The PSX-AR automatically supports travel in either direction through the loop.
Correct, use either the jumpers OR CV49, not both. You need to change the address from the factory default when installing it -- unless it's the only one, in which case you can just use the default address -- then you can use the CVs to set things on it. I haven't bothered with that, just used the jumpers to KISS.
In my own mystery, this thread did give me the motivation to crawl underneath and analyze some more. Come to find out my loop was dead. Checked and had power to the PSX-AR, but nothing on the output. The 3rd LED over near the outputs wasn't lit, so that's a confirmation, other two were lit.
Only thing is, I don't think it's dead. I didn't use CV49 or otherwise attempt to program it when installed, just used the jumper. Have I somehow addressed it and turned the power to the tracks off maybe?
Alternatively, how can I tell I really killed it?
I don't remember doing anything that might kill it, so that's why I'm hoping it's just me being a doofus somehow.
Fortunately, I had a spare, so I'm back in business on that loop.
I drew a track diagram similar to yours, and I labeled the seven turnouts by numbering them 1 through 7. The X's represent my suggested rail gaps.
A lot depends upon how you wire the rails to the bus wires, but in my diagram, the two points of reverse polarity occur where the two tracks leading from turnout 3 connect to the main section at turnouts 1 and 2. By gapping the rails on the divergent tracks at turnouts 1 and 2 and over at the tail end of turnout 4, the resulting reversing section is all of the track in that left hand loop. There is no reversing section between turnouts 1 and 6 as you proposed in your diagram. There also is no reason to place any gaps in the rails between turnouts 5 and 7, because all of that track is part of the main section.
The one thing that I don't like about my proposed reversing section is that a train can enter the reversing section at turnout 4 headed toward turnout 3 at the same time that a train is entering the reversing section at turnout 1 or turnout 2 headed toward turnout 3. That would cause a short that the PSX-AR could not resolve.
So, a better solution would be to gap the rails at the tail end of turnout 4 and at the tail end of turnout 3 so that the reversing section is between turnouts 3 and 4. This would produce a shorter reversing section where only one train at a time could occupy the reversing section. In this instance, the wiring between turnouts 1 and 3 and between turnouts 2 and 3 would have to be wired in phase with the tracks between turnouts 4 and 6 so that those two portions of track become part of the main section.
JnJ'slittletrain So if I understand you right Rich, gap the rails like in the above picture. The red sections would go to the output of a reverser and the blue would go to a main bus feed. Would this work the way I have it drawn out? The other question I have is: the section I labled A is fairly short. Would it make more sense to move the gaps to the other side of the turnout that is on the right and blue? Then gap the the other two tracks? Other than the short section, I think the way I have it drawn out will work. Are auto reverseres supposed to work in either direcion? What I mean by this is; do you always have to enter a reverse section in the same leg or can you pick either leg you want to? Part of the reason I chose this layout was so that my daughter and I could run trains in multiple directions and sections before she gets bored of watching a train go in a circle. I spoke with Tony's today. The PSX-AR doeen't actually get programmed to a specific loco ID but rather you use a loco ID that isn't in use by any of the locomotives in your collection. Then you go to CV 49 and set it to what you need to. The guy I spoke to said that if you jumped out the appriate pins of J6, then its not necesary to set the CV 49.
Yes, the reversing section would be wired to the output of a reverser and rest of the feeder wires outside the reversing section would be wired to the main bus wires. Power to the input side of the reverser would come from a pair of feeder wires from the main bus wires. However, as I mentioned in my previous reply, the red and blue sections, as you have drawn them, need to be modified.
Yes, auto reversers work in either direction. So, trains can enter or exit a reversing section in any direction. The whole idea of a reverser, either an auto-reverser like the PSX-AR or the Digitrax AR-1 or a DPDT toggle switch, is to match the polarities of adjoining sections of track by flipping the mismatched polarities as the wheels of the train cross the gaps in the rails. This would be crucial in your layout since trains are running on tracks that fold back onto themselves.
Regarding the PSX-AR, I am going to repeat my suggestion that you put the PSX-AR aside for the moment and install a temporary DPDT toggle switch in its place. I suggest this for two reasons. First, until you are certain that you have correctly gapped and wired the reversing section, there is no reason to add the complexity of the PSX-AR which may or may not be correctly wired, jumpered and programmed. Once you have the reversing section correctly gapped and wired, you can tackle the PSX-AR issue. Second, because the operation of the DPDT toggle switch is manual, requiring you to flip it, as opposed to the PSX-AR whose operation is automatic, you will be able to observe how the mismatched polarities are resolved by flipping the DPDT switch at the proper time.
Your first reaction to my suggestion to install a DPDT switch will probably be, Forget It, why add another layer of difficulty. But, the use of a DPDT will exponentially increase your understanding of reverse polarity while you face the challenge of creating a working reversing section without the added distraction about whether you have correctly installed the PSX-AR. Right now, you are not sure where the problem is occurring, your track work or the reverser.
JnJ'slittletrain Well being I disappointed you guys with such a simple fix, maybe this will be more of a challenge. I'm frustrated at this point.
Well being I disappointed you guys with such a simple fix, maybe this will be more of a challenge. I'm frustrated at this point.
JnJ, where are you?
What's happening?
Rich did a lot of work here helping you with this problem. You really should let him know how your doing in it.
Rich, I'm sorry that I didn't get back to you sooner. I just finished rewiring the lower section so that the reverse section is how you drew it in the diagram. I had an atlas reverser switch laying around so I used that to manually reverse the polarity. Everything worked smoothly! I installed the PSX-AR and it still works smoothly!!!!
I can't thank you enough for the help you and everyone else gave me with this issue. Once I saw the diagram you drew, I felt like an idiot. The answer was so simple and so obvious. Again thank you all
That is good news. Congrats. Glad you are up and running.
You and your daughter should have a great time operating that layout.