Sorry guys if you have seen this type of question ad nauseum, but I'm afraid I have to ask...
I am getting back into mrr after a 3 year hiatus. I started building the Atlas Rancocas Harbor Belt (https://secure.atlasrr.com/mmMOD1/Images/10034.jpg) and quit 3 years ago. After helping my daughter build a scale model of a local bridge, I got re-inspired to blow off the dryer lint and dust and get back into it. I am laying track and feeder wires now (yeah, I know...I didn't get very far back then!), but am quickly getting to what I feel like is a crossroads for some decisions.
The layout isn't the best, as far as operations and such, but I really don't know much about doing that anyways. I am more concerned (at least now, with my knowledge and abilities) to build one so I can watch trains go round and round with some cool scenery.
Having said that, although what I've been reading here on the forums would tell me to go DC, I like the aspects of a walk around controller...running 2 trains at a time...switching tracks with the handheld...and sounds from the locos.
So...
1). Should I go DC or DCC?
2). The NCC Powercab system looks like a good starter set for me. Thoughts??
3). It appears that Tortoise is the switch machines of choice. Should I go with them?
4). Is there a way to install them AFTER the turnout has been laid? I didn't bother to read up on switch installations until after I laid most of the track, which included 9 of the 10 turnouts!
5). Do I need to buy the "Switch It"s to operate 2 Tortoises at a time?
6). I'm regretting my decision now, after reading forums and looking at pictures, but I used the Woodland Scenic foam to build the layout, so ALL lower level switches have to go thru 4" of foam and the 2 upper level ones have to go thru 8". Isn't that going to be an issue?
Here are some of the pix I took back in 2009 when I originally built the layout. Any thoughts are GREATLY appreciated and honesty is welcomed. I know everybody has their reasons, but I'm thinking I'll get this layout done one day and then, having much more knowledge (hopefully) about building and operating, turn my f.r.o.g. (room over garage, not turnout term!) into a benchwork-style layout more conducive to operations and prototypical.
http://s584.photobucket.com/albums/ss287/pitshop/Trains/Construction/
I know some of these questions should really be in the "Layout and Building" section, but I'm thinking if the general consensus is to go DC, then that steers me in a direction that may change the other issues, so I felt like I should post it here. Sorry if that was incorrect, but I'm learning...
pitshop!
First of all, welcome back to the hobby!
Second, I don't think you need to apologize for asking basic questions. There are a few spoilsports on the forums who will tell you to use the search engine first before asking questions, but in my opinion that is counter productive to the spirit of the forums. Most of use are very happy and willing to offer advise (perhaps too much so in my case!).
As far as DC vs DCC - I think DCC is the way to go simply because it allows you to run your trains instead of having to concentrate on controlling the layout. It offers the possibility of sound and of being able to run several locomotives at the same time with ease.
I have the NCE Power Cab and I am very happy with it. I have absolutely no experience with any other DCC systems but the NCE system is simple and easy to learn and use. I rejected Digitrax outright simply because all of the buttons look the same and my wee brain couldn't deal with that. I hate learning curves!
Your questions on turnout control I will leave to others with more experience.
As far as your layout goes, I think it looks great! Good luck with it.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Hey pitshop,
Your layout looks like it's coming along nicely.
Given that you enjoy operating two locomotives simultaneously and you enjoy sound, I would encourage you to go ahead and start out with DCC. It's your choice whether you want to operate your turnouts via your throttle vs. manually with a ground throw or Tortoise. Mounting the Tortoise might be kinda a challenge through all that foam. Is your layout base plywood?
For me personally, using the throttle to throw a turnout over-complicates the switching process. I like ground throws, as I don't have to go through some menu or remember some macro to activate the turnout; I just reach over and throw the turnout by hand. If you've already installed the turnouts, it might just be easier in the long run to use ground throws now and plan for Tortoises on your next layout iteration.
The NCE Power Cab is a fine DCC starter system. I've had mine for a little over 6 years now and enjoy it very much. If it's helpful, pitshop, there's a review of the Power Cab on my website at the link at the bottom of this post. There's also a review of the Smart Booster (SB3 and SB3a), as well as the CAB-04p throttle.
Hope that helps...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Hey tstage! Tom, how are you doin'?!
I can't help but notice that we have posted similar responses on several different threads.
Great minds must think alike! And the rest of us sometimes too!!
Power Cab is a great system and based on your description you won't be hitting any of its limitations, so you should be good to go. It looks like the cable is long enough for you to reach all the layout? but can't tell for sure in the absence of dimensions? This is actually an important consideration, because whilst the PowerCab is a tethered walk around throttle, it differs from most other brands (for important design reasons, namely the booster is in the hand held) in that the layout shuts down if you unplug it. This might be a real pain if you can't reach all areas? This can be overcome with expansion and adding a second throttle or an additional booster/throttle, which has a cost penalty of course. Tom has good descriptions of these add-ons on his web site, links at the bottom of his post.
Switch control is another issue all-together. Since all your switches are installed you will have some significant work getting whatever mechanism installed. Tortoise are good, I have been playing around with RC. Servos for some hidden staging areas. Tam Valley Depot makes some nice servo controllers. (Been more than one thread on these BTW) This is important, because if you want to control the turnout via DCC command you also need a stationary switch decoder for the turnout. Some of these stationary decoders can handle several switches. As you research this you will find that there is some significant cost involved. You may decide that since you are walking with the train that you can manually throw the switches?
Regarding the primary question, DC or DCC? Well you could certainly design a DC system that would give you 2 cab control and walk around capability. It would require some moderately complex wiring. However, many DC guys are disappointed with the performance of sound locos on DC. I don't believe that it will save you a great deal of money either? DCC is the ideal solution for what you want IMO.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
As for turnout controllers, I use servos. They're quite bit cheaper than Tortoises even when you add in the controls, and the controls have pushbuttons and LEDs as well as work as DCC decoders. Using mounts from Motrak, they install like Tortoises and work just fine through my 4" of foam, 1/4" of plywood, and cork roadbed. I have one that ended up too close to a cross brace, so I used a rotary sort of linkage which would easily work through 8" of foam.
Actual DCC control of turnouts from the throttle is cumbersome at best no matter what DCC system I much prefer having the local buttons and indicators as I walk along with the train. The DCC option allows for a centralized dispatcher running from a computer using something like JMRI.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
My personal preference is Digitrax DCC. Yours may be different.
I have added Tortoise to already laid turnouts by drilling a very small hole down through the turnout between the ties close to the movable tie to mark the location. I then slide a steel ruler under the turnout where the hole is needed. I can then drill slowly up from the bottom until the 1/4 inch drill bit hits the ruler. The ruler keeps the drill bit from damaging the turnout.
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Phoebe Vet I then slide a steel ruler under the turnout where the hole is needed. I can then drill slowly up from the bottom until the 1/4 inch drill bit hits the ruler. The ruler keeps the drill bit from damaging the turnout.
I then slide a steel ruler under the turnout where the hole is needed. I can then drill slowly up from the bottom until the 1/4 inch drill bit hits the ruler. The ruler keeps the drill bit from damaging the turnout.
Thankyou, been puzzling over this for a while. The ruler is a great idea
simon1966 Phoebe Vet: I then slide a steel ruler under the turnout where the hole is needed. I can then drill slowly up from the bottom until the 1/4 inch drill bit hits the ruler. The ruler keeps the drill bit from damaging the turnout. Thankyou, been puzzling over this for a while. The ruler is a great idea
Phoebe Vet: I then slide a steel ruler under the turnout where the hole is needed. I can then drill slowly up from the bottom until the 1/4 inch drill bit hits the ruler. The ruler keeps the drill bit from damaging the turnout.
All the while chastising myself for not installing the Tortoise instead of those Atlas switch motors in the first place. ROFL.
WHich, BTW, isn't an issue with the rotary linkage since you drill down a few ties away from teh throwbar, so those sort of things can be easily installed after the fact with no risk to the turnout (unless you press really hard on the drill and when it breaks through the bottom you slam it down against the track). The neat thing with servos is, the underside of this linkage is exactly the sale as for a regular back and forth installation. The way the wire attaches to the servo horn, it twists as it rocks back and forth - that's how I hit on this. As I installed each servo, I used a much longer peice of wire than needed, and cut them off later. As soon as I installed each one, I attached a flag of blue painter's tape to each one so I wouldn;t lean over and jab myself with the wires until I got them all cut flush. When operating the turnout to verify the servo was positioned properly, I noticed the flag twist as it rocked back and forth. So when I hit my problem turnout where the brace was in the way, I figured I could just bend the wire and the spin would then move the points back and forth- and it does. There are some pictures of it in my construction photos section.
Randy:
That's true. I used the remote Tortoise mount in a couple of places where the motor wouldn't fit where needed. They install the same way, down from the top between the ties..
pitshop Do I need to buy the "Switch It"s to operate 2 Tortoises at a time?
Do I need to buy the "Switch It"s to operate 2 Tortoises at a time?
I use the Switch-its and I'm very happy. Each Switch-it has two outputs. Each of the outputs can operate two Tortoise machines, assuming that you want them to throw simutaneously as in a passing siding (both ends throw) or crossover situation. The Switch-it has connection points for momentary push buttons if you prefer to throw the turnouts from a control panel rather than a handset.
The Switch-it uses track power to operate. Some consider this a disadvantage. But since each Tortoise uses, I think, less than 20 milliamps, this was not a concern for me.
Randy mentioned that the use of the handset to throw turnouts was burdensome, and that he preferred a control panel. I specifically liked the handset operation initially because I was not interested in having to build a control panel, or panels depending if I wanted things centralized, plus all the associated wiring. This is an aspect of the hobby that I don't enjoy. After some time, I can see that at least a track diagram with the turnouts numbered is probably helpful. And with the Switch-it I can go back and install pushbuttons later if I so desire.
Concerning the PowerCab, several friends have that and are very happy, and the club has one we use for programming so as not to interfere with mainline operation with the main DCC system. A comment was made about the length of the handset cord possibly limiting the amount of walk-around capability due to the fact that the PowerCab design requires it to be left plugged in. As also mentioned this can be overcome by the purchase of another handset. However, it should also be noted that the other popular starter DCC set has no walk-around capability. It also requires an additional handset to achieve this.
maxman However, it should also be noted that the other popular starter DCC set has no walk-around capability. It also requires an additional handset to achieve this.
However, it should also be noted that the other popular starter DCC set has no walk-around capability. It also requires an additional handset to achieve this.
Why should that be noted, I don't think anyone is really suggesting another, I certainly was not? Besides the excellent Super Chief starter set does have a walk around throttle, featuring a rather nice dual knob throttle which provides an excellent and easy-to-use interface for someone that wants to run one train while switching with another.
I use Digitrax DS-64s because of their ability to run routes.
There are several ways to power and control a Tortoise. Some can even respond to track occupancy detectors.
pitshop 1). Should I go DC or DCC? 2). The NCC Powercab system looks like a good starter set for me. Thoughts?? 3). It appears that Tortoise is the switch machines of choice. Should I go with them? 4). Is there a way to install them AFTER the turnout has been laid? I didn't bother to read up on switch installations until after I laid most of the track, which included 9 of the 10 turnouts! 5). Do I need to buy the "Switch It"s to operate 2 Tortoises at a time? 6). I'm regretting my decision now, after reading forums and looking at pictures, but I used the Woodland Scenic foam to build the layout, so ALL lower level switches have to go thru 4" of foam and the 2 upper level ones have to go thru 8". Isn't that going to be an issue?
1. Since you want to operate more than one train at a time, you should go with DCC. You will never regret that decision.
2. Form all that I have read, the NCE Power Cab is a good "starter" system, but why not do what I did and that is to skip the starter system and start with a much more flexible system, the NCE PH-Pro 5 amp system. And, if you have the funds, do yourself a favor and start with wireless. No wires, no cables, no plug-in panels along the layout.
3. Tortoises are an excellent choice. Easy to install, easy to wire, and easy to operate.
4. I install all of my track work without the Tortoises in place and then I go back later and install the Tortoises. I mark the hole to be drilled, temporarily remove the turnout, drill the hole, replace the turnout, install the Tortoise.
5. If you are planning to operate two Tortoises at a time on a crossover or a double slip or a double crossover, you do not need a Switch-It because you simply wire two Tortoises together. However, if you are trying to align switches in a yard with one move, then you will need a Switch-It or the equivalent.
6. I use Woodland Scenics foam track bed on my layout and it is fine. The deeper the sub roadbed, the more "difficult" the installation of the Tortoise. The biggest issue is to be certain that you are using a strong enough wire to minimize flexing. I use 0.040" piano wire for a 3/4" run. For 4" and 8" runs, you may want an even heavier gauge wire. The turnout throwbars have enough area available to install a pretty thick wire if need be.
Rich
Alton Junction
Next thing you know we'll all be using weldign rod like Lion. What sort of turnouts do you use that don;t have a firm enough pressure through a 3/4" thick roadbed without using .040 wire? G scale solid rail code 250? (no hinges in for the point)? After traveling through 4 1/2" betwen my foam, plywood, and cork, any of mine snap back with authority if pulled away from the lined position, and that's with just .037 wire. The wire that comes with the Motrak mounts is slightly smaller, like .031, the only reason I don;t use it is because it's too short to reach. I give the leftovers to my friend, he just gorilla glues his servos to the underside of his plywood and so has a very short distance to reach, his turnouts are is most cases not hinged (hand laid), but are N scale code 40 so it doesn;t take much effort to bend the rails.
rrinker Next thing you know we'll all be using weldign rod like Lion. What sort of turnouts do you use that don;t have a firm enough pressure through a 3/4" thick roadbed without using .040 wire?
Next thing you know we'll all be using weldign rod like Lion. What sort of turnouts do you use that don;t have a firm enough pressure through a 3/4" thick roadbed without using .040 wire?
LOL
The first time that I bought a Tortoise 8 years ago, the guys at my LHS said to replace the wire included with the Tortoise with a heavier gauge. They sold me some 0.040 piano wire , and I have used it ever since.
As a side note, my plywood is 1/2" thick and the road bed is 5mm thick; thus, the 3/4" thickness.
Mine is 1/2 inch plywood and Woodland Scenics roadbed. I use the wire that comes with the Tortoise and it works fine.
pitshop I started building the Atlas Rancocas Harbor Belt (https://secure.atlasrr.com/mmMOD1/Images/10034.jpg) ... 1). Should I go DC or DCC?
I use switch-its and DS64's to control my tortoise machines. Depends on how many switches need decoders. Those two are my first choice because they can both have local pusbuttons added. I've also found that the buttons get used most of the time instead of the throttle. So basically I spent a whole bunch of money for no great gain.
Martin Myers