For those that say lead free solder is what the decoder industry is using. I sent an email to NCE customer service explaining that the wires broke or pulled out of the solder when I, in my hard wire installation had to bend the wires at the solder pad in order to fit the decoder. It is a tight area inside the loco even with hogging out some of the weight, just not enough room and most would have abandoned the install I'm sure, but I did accomplish the install. Here's part of the email I received from NCE not using lead free solder. Jim
Jim,
No, we are still using leaded solder. The Federal rules have slid farther and farther away due to the fact that lead free solder just does not work. After using the wires that SoundTraxx uses, it took me a while to get used to NCE's.
If you want to sell your product in Europe, it must be lead free. Since it is a large market, you must take that into consideration.
In North America lead bearing solders are not an issue yet. NASA has worked for 40 years with lead free solders and they never got it to work as well as lead. If they couldn't solve the long term problems, not likely anyone else will either.
Lead free works, but the real issue is the longevity of the joints. Lead bearing solder joints last forever.
In my experience, the issue here with the NCE decoder is not the solder, it is brittle wire that does not stand up well to repeated twisting and bending. I have had to re-solder a lead to a pad on NCE D13SR many times. I can't say it has ever particularly bothered me. But since you mention it, the wire on these decoders is certainly not as flexible as others.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
simon1966 In my experience, the issue here with the NCE decoder is not the solder, it is brittle wire that does not stand up well to repeated twisting and bending. I have had to re-solder a lead to a pad on NCE D13SR many times. I can't say it has ever particularly bothered me. But since you mention it, the wire on these decoders is certainly not as flexible as others.
Yea and somebody posted yesterday how they strip that hard coating off with their fingernail ??????? The performance of the decoder is great after programming and the price is cheap enough, but when I desoldered the pads, I kinda of thought their solder seemed brittle, so I did a google search and found where, I guess, they were using lead free for awhile, but the email NCE sent me said no, not anymore, they do use the lead solder. And yes the wire is not flexable, and I couldn't fit the decoder any other way, except to bend the wires out of the way of the flywheel, it was a hard wire install, no plugs, no room for them, no way! I really didn't want to put in the tender, I had to hog out enough room too for the resistors (3) for the headlight and ditch lights. It's all good, it runs great, and the lights all work, job well done!
Well I guess from the response I got from NCE they're not selling decoders in Europe ?????????
I'm sure glad I have an abundent supply of leaded solder before EPA imposes laws on it here in the USA!
Lead-free solder was one of those, `Make everything safe for children,' ideas, put out by bureaucrats who thought that making a rule would cause the desired thing to appear by magic.
Unless you are in the habit of chewing on your solder, soldered joints or soldering tools, there isn't any lead-free product that will equal good old 60/40 for long-term holding power. I have a module in regular (as in several days a week) operation that has solder joints made in 1980 - 81. Not one has failed. The lead-free crap that I tried a few years ago lasted for about a week.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
If you use the NCE decoders with the JST header on them, you don't need to do any soldering to them. The D13SRJ, for example, comes with a separate solder-in harness that the decoder simply plugs into. For a loco that is "DCC ready" such as an Athearn Quick-Plug model, the JST socket is already in them.
The whole push behind lead free solder is to reduce the amount of toxic metals ending up in landfills. Too many electronic devices today are designed to be very cheap, and not worth repair, so the consumer just throws them away. Sure, it can be recycled, but most people can't be bothered or won't pay any fees.
Many places will not accept a CRT television or monitor in the garbage anymore. There is a lot of lead in the tube, and other nasty materials in the electronics. Many people still put them at the curb, either because they are ignorant of the rules, or because they can't be bothered or won't pay to have it disposed of properly.
Anyone on a well understands the concept of groundwater contamination from landfills.
cacole If you use the NCE decoders with the JST header on them, you don't need to do any soldering to them. The D13SRJ, for example, comes with a separate solder-in harness that the decoder simply plugs into. For a loco that is "DCC ready" such as an Athearn Quick-Plug model, the JST socket is already in them.
Maybe you don't understand, most all newer loco's are either DCC or DCC ready with plugs from the factory. That's not a DCC conversion that I enjoy doing with older analog loco's. That's what I do!
It was a hard wire install. It's impossible with some loco's to install even a small decoder without hogging out either the shell or the weights, there's just no room for extra plugs and often times no room for more wires! The resistors for the replaced led's for headlights, strobe lights, or ditch lights can also impose problems of where to put them. My ears perk right up, when others say it "ain't worth it" or it can't be done, I simply love the challenge.
It was the first time also that I used an NCE decoder, these particular decoders are designed for hardwire installs, which I wanted. The wire is brittle and hard and the insulating coating on the wire is the hardest I have yet to work with, I had to bend the wire so as to clear the fly wheel and fit it where I hogged out some of the frame (weight). When the 4 wires broke off, I simply desoldered the pads on the decoder including the 3 wires that didn't break, and replaced alI 7 wires with Digitrax decoder wire which is very manageable and tolerates bending, it's flexable whereas the NCE wire is not. It was during the desolder that I noticed how brittle the wire is and also how brittle the solder was. I concluded that either the solder had no lead or it was "cold soldered" during manufacturing, in other words the solder was not hot enough to flow when applied at the factory. I have done 18 other hardwire installs using TCS, Digitrax or Soundtraxx decoders. Most were not simple installs to convert to DCC. And like I said, most guys wouldn't even attempt such installs, they would say "it's not worth it", especially on older loco's. As long as an older analog loco is an excellent runner and is in good shape, not worn out, especially steam, and passes the stall test, I enjoy the challenge of converting them. Most modellers won't even think about these coversions and say it's not worth it, but some of us just smile but with our hair standing up on our necks, stubborn maybe, but we give it a go so to speak, again I love a challenge!
Jim
betamax The whole push behind lead free solder is to reduce the amount of toxic metals ending up in landfills. Too many electronic devices today are designed to be very cheap, and not worth repair, so the consumer just throws them away. Sure, it can be recycled, but most people can't be bothered or won't pay any fees. Many places will not accept a CRT television or monitor in the garbage anymore. There is a lot of lead in the tube, and other nasty materials in the electronics. Many people still put them at the curb, either because they are ignorant of the rules, or because they can't be bothered or won't pay to have it disposed of properly. Anyone on a well understands the concept of groundwater contamination from landfills.
That's one of the reason's there is no more manufacturing here in the US and we complained when stuff was made in Japan back in the 60's, Singapore/The Philiphines back in the 80's, Mexico in the 90's and now China!
But that's a political issue and I would rather not exploit or start a flame war here on this fine site for politics or the policies of the EPA or any political views one may have!
Rangerover1944 That's one of the reason's there is no more manufacturing here in the US and we complained when stuff was made in Japan back in the 60's, Singapore/The Philiphines back in the 80's, Mexico in the 90's and now China!
ROHS is an EU initiative. There are many manufacturers of parts in the US that advertise ROHS compliant parts. Because if you want to export your products, either at a component level or as a finished product, it must meet that spec if it is going to Europe.
For mass market items aimed at the consumer market, it is cheaper and more effective to send that work to Asia. Manufacture in North America or Europe would be too costly and people want those $25 DVD players at Walmart. Since that stuff is made for a global market, you will have to respect the ROHS if you want to sell into Europe. It is much easier to comply with all your products.