DCC- yes or no, and some basic wiring questions...

[CR4620]

Blessed with a new home and a wonderful wife who wants a huge layout, I find myself in the midst of building a rather large layout in my basement. It is a hollowed "L" shape, with the long side of the L being some 32' long and 25' along the base. While I have had small 4X8 layouts in the past, this is the largest thing I have ever tried to build. Now that the table is about finished, I needed some answers to some questions. First, assuming I simply build several loop tracks, will one power pack be able to power such a large loop (about 100' of HO track per loop), and if not, suggestions? The other question concerned DCC. My layout is simply a large home layout, not a club or anything more than maybe a few friends coming over to run their trains on my track. I have heard mixed comments on DCC, considering expense and specialized wiring (my wiring skills are...well, not all that). Given that information, any suggestions on going DCC or not? 

[Stourbridge Lion]

CR4620 - Welcome to Trains.com!

[mobilman44]

Hi, and welcome to the forum!

About three years ago I tore down an existing 11x15 two level HO layout and put in a new one.  I had studied and studied the question of going to DCC or not.   I made the jump - after 50 years in DC - and am very glad I did.

My happiness with DCC is due to two factors........(1) I run individual trains - not the tracks.  (2) I can take advantage of all the sound options available, which is incredible.

Doing DCC for a sizeable layout isn't cheap.  I spent just over $1k on components, and several hundred on decoders. 

Wiring is easier by far - BUT, you do need feeders every 3 or 4 feet, and you do need "good track" connections.  DCC is more finicky with dirty track and the like than DC.

Pick up a couple of Kalmbach's DCC books, read the postings in this Forum, and do your homework before you make the decision - and before you spend the money.  Believe me, I was extremely reluctant, but it was the best MR decision I have made. 

 

[ARTHILL]

I went to DCC with radio throttles and love it. I have more than I need, but I like it. When the grandkids come over, I give each a throttle and they just run trains. I am not sure it costs a lot more than DC (considering all the switches a DC system needs) , but if it did, it was worth it. It is the best toy in the train room..I have a bunch of old DC engines. You can still run then, but only one at a time. I put decoders in the ones I run all the time. I park the rest on tracks that are isolated and I put a simple spst switch in the feeder line.  It was WAY easier than wiring DC.

It takes some time to put a decoder in an old brass engine, but I did it so it can't be too hard. Plugging decoders in new engines is easy.  I vote for going DCC from the start.

[IRONROOSTER]

DCC wiring is usually simpler than DC block wiring.  OTOH if you're having multiple loops each with only one train and no crossovers then DC can be simple too.  DCC's great advantage is running multiple locomotives under independent control on the same track without having electric blocks.  With DC, all the locomotives in the same electric block are controlled together.

Power packs can handle one or more large loops (usually with multiple feeder wires on each loop), but are limited in the number of locomotives they can power based on the output of the pack and the current draw of all locomotives combined.  DCC is the same, but several DCC setups use 5 amp power supplies which can handle several HO locomotives.

Some DCC systems can accommodate one DC locomotive (not always very well), others none.  If your friends have DC locomotives you'll probably need to have DC power for them on separate tracks if you're using DCC.  If all of you want to each control his own train you'll need a power pack for each with DC or a controller for each with DCC.

Good luck

Paul

If this is a multiple loop display running layout some loops could be DC and other DCC.  You could even use switches so each loop can be whichever is desired.

[dstarr]

My home layout is not as large as yours, but it is DC right now and I don't really think I need to go for DCC.  I am the only operator most of the time.  I have a number of trains on the layout, but I can only operate one at a time, that's due to limitations of my attention span and small motor skills.  The other trains are parked on sidings and spurs.  They stay put because toggle switches turn the power off  to the rails they sit upon.

As far as traditional DC is concerned, the length of track is immaterial,  the track does not consume electricity, only a motor does that.  As long as the track conducts the electricity, the train runs the same on a 1000 foot of track as it does on 10 feet. 

   What does make a difference is the rail joiners.  Basically you cannot depend upon rail joiners to conduct electricity reliably, especially after some time has elapsed.  Eventually the metal on the inside of the joiner (where you cannot see it) oxidizes enough to stop conducting.  For truly reliable operation you need to run a power bus under neath the layout  and solder feeder wires from the power bus to every single piece of track.  In practice, most of us only run feeder to every OTHER piece of track, on the assumption that only a single rail joiner will fail to conduct, and the track can draw electricity from rail joiner at the other end.  The odds are slim that the rail joiners at both ends of the rail will open up. 

  The major hassle of going over to DC is the installation of $30 (and up) decoders in each locomotive.  My locomotive fleet is a modest two dozen, and the thought of equipping each of them with decoders is not one I look forward to.  However, the DCC decision is never set in concrete.  A DC only layout can be converted to DCC by simply purchasing a DCC throttle, power booster, and the locomotive decoders.  If you are just getting going, you don't have to go the DCC route from the beginning.   Run plain DC until you get a solid DCC urge.

 

[Steven Otte]

If you don't mind, I'll move this thread over to the DCC & Electronics forum. That's where you'll find the folks who know this topic inside and out. Happy railroading!

[cuyama]

CR4620

My layout is simply a large home layout, not a club or anything more than maybe a few friends coming over to run their trains on my track. I have heard mixed comments on DCC, considering expense and specialized wiring (my wiring skills are...well, not all that). Given that information, any suggestions on going DCC or not? 

Layout wiring is significantly easier for DCC than for DC to operate multiple trains simultaneously. Whoever told you it's harder does not understand DCC. (Or DC, a lot of people with strong anti-DCC opinions have never wired a DC layout for multiple train operation, either).

 

dstarr

The major hassle of going over to DC is the installation of $30 (and up) decoders in each locomotive.  

Or one could buy one of the fine fleet decoders for under $20 (TCS, among others). Also, many engines come equipped with DCC out-of-the-box. No installation.

DC is fine. DCC is fine. It's always good to make decisions based on fact and not rumors.

[simon1966]

As for DCC expense, with what you are describing you could probably get away with a starter system like a Digitrax Zephyr XTra and a couple, or 3, engineer throttles.  Total out lay $180 for the system and $64 each for throttles, plus $14 for panels to plug into around the layout.   Pick a different brand and the over all cost is not going to be significantly different.

Decoders can be purchased for under $14 each in quantity.   You can of course spend much more with higher end systems and decoders, but these prices would get you into a good system that can be expanded if needed in the future.

For me it would be a no-brainer, for more than one operator, running more than one train on the layout I can't imagine not going DCC.

What ever way you decide to go, do some planning with respect to the wiring.  A good solid power bus under the layout with regular feeders won't harm you in a DC setting and will be a  You can also plan to logically break the layout down into isolated power sections if you like?  On my layout, every section of track has a soldered electrical path to the power bus, either via direct soldered feeders, or because it is soldered to an adjacent track that has feeders.  Some say feeders every 3 feet, my rule is no rail joiner reliance, so in more complex track areas there may be many more feeders, and on long straights with soldered sections of flex track, fewer.

[BroadwayLion]

LION runs a DC layout. But then you probably do not want to build a layout that runs like mine.

But then I can run 12 trains at once with my one paw tied behind my back.

[Texas Zepher]

CR4620

I find myself in the midst of building a rather large layout in my basement. It is a hollowed "L" shape, with the long side of the L being some 32' long and 25' along the base. .... First, assuming I simply build several loop tracks, will one power pack be able to power such a large loop (about 100' of HO track per loop), and if not, suggestions?

I say yes.  Especially in the configuration you have described.   First since it is a loop, even if there was only one set of wires going to the track the max imum distance a loco could be from the feeders is 50'.   To get a loop on to an "L" it means that  where the L pinches the tracks together you could put two feeders with very little wire.  Assuming that was exactly 1/2 way through the loop, now there are two feeders 50' apart in the loop and the furtherst a locomotive is from a feeder is 25'.   Continuing that scheme adding feeders in both directions and soon the locomotive is always less than 4' from a feeder with about 1/4 as much linear feet of wire as there is track.   A second loop adds very little additional wire for the same result.

The other question concerned DCC. My layout is simply a large home layout, not a club or anything more than maybe a few friends coming over to run their trains on my track. I have heard mixed comments on DCC, considering expense and specialized wiring (my wiring skills are...well, not all that). Given that information, any suggestions on going DCC or not?

In this day and age the only time I recommend NOT going to DCC is if there will only ever be exactly one operator, there will only ever be exactly one locomotive (or multiple unit set of) on the layout, and there is no plan to ever expand to multiple operators and multpile trains.    DCC is not that expensive anymore.  When I started , cheap decoders were kits for $45 and sound units $295.  They were big, hard to install, and got so hot they often would melt the plastic of the loco bodies.   The control units cost thousands not hundreds  BUT I still considered it to be a good deal because I could actually spend time running the trains not spend it figuring out which switches to flip to control the track under the train.   

[EMD#1]

DCC is the way to go in my opinion!  I agree with others that you should definitely do your homework first before purchasing a system.  I have heard the NCE system or MRC Prodigy is probably the easiest to use although Digitrax seems to be the most popular.  I operated a DC layout for years before I switched to DCC and have never looked back.  I use a Lenz system and I am satisfied with it.  The original system came with one controller and I purchased a second one for another operator to use.  I plan on purchasing one more in the future.  My layout is 12' X 24' or roughly the same size as Pelle Soeborg's.  

Wiring is pretty simple.  I use 16 AWG for bus wires from the command station.  Since I designed my layout in sections I use terminal strips at each end utilizing spade connectors on the wiring.  I use 18 AWG as feeders from the terminal strips up through the layout where I soldered the wiring to the rails.  Radio shack sells 18 AWG and Terminal Strips and Jumpers.  Home Depot sells 16 AWG wiring.  I use black wiring and red wiring to separate one rail from the other.  Since I have a few sound equipped locos I designed my engine terminal with insulated blocks that can be turned on with DPDT switches.  This way when I turn the system on it doesn't draw such a large starting current that could overload the system.

I hope you'll give it a try and good luck!

Tim