Another question as I plan an HO layout. It would be DCC with Tortoise turnout motors. Here are some questions that show I have a lot to learn. If any have threads or articles I should read please feel free to point out.
I don't want to control the turnouts with the DCC cab, rather throw switches on a diagram type control panel.
a) what materials are suggested for the control panel face: e.g., painted pelxiglas, sheet metal, etc
b) how do you put the diagram on the panel: pinstriping, etc?
c) what type toggle switches (e.g., DPDT) do I need for the Tortoise? Specific items and vendors (Radio Shack, Micro Mark, etc) would help. I don't know what the "stall motor" means...is there power constantly supplied even after the switch occurs, unlike the Atlas dual coil momentary powered turnout motors I used 25 years ago? is a 3-wire cord needed from the toggle switch to the Tortoise?
d) if I use toggle switches and they are not center off, then I presume they will show the route position of the turnout visually and I don't need to add route indicator lights on the panel (a nice feature but extra work & expense)
Any advice much appreciated as usual.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
For control panels I have used plexiglass it is reasonably easy to cut, I used a plain old hand cross cut saw. Easy to drill holes for switches, take your time with a slower speed drill ,it tends to grab as you cut through to the other side .It of course is an insulating material. I spray painted the plexiglass rattle can white enamel ( think I had an issue with Rustoleum ) then mask your diagram and spray can black enamel.
The LION has used many methods to create control panels.
I have used plexiglass with the painted diagram on the underside. Real clean, real neat, and impossible to change.
I used a hardboard (Masonite) board painted green, and used 1/16 x 1/8 wood strips painted white and glued to the board to form the diagram. If I change a track I can chisel off the old strips and glue on new ones. I could fill old holes with modeling clay and paint them green.
My current model board is generated on the computer (you can click on it a few times to make it come up in full size.
I could then precisely mark where switches and LEDs would be placed. I used adhesive paper and applied it to Masonite. When I drilled the holes for the switches etc some of the paper got torn a bit. Doing it again I would cover it with plexiglass before drilling the holes.
Here is the finished model board together with my Model-5 GRS machine.
On this layout the Tortoise machines are controlled by the levers on the GRS machine. The levers are simply big fancy man-sized handles for little itty-bitty SPDT micro switches under the hood. Yup the handles do indicate the position of the switch. It is common to have the levers in the normal position or the toggle switches in the DOWN position for the normal position of the turnout and up (pulled on this machine) for the reverse position of the turnout. Thus (with toggle switches) you just wipe them all to the DOWN position to align the turnouts to the main-line, through route, and a quick glance will tell you if any turn out is not aligned to the main. Thus the position of the switch does not necessarily correspond to the layout of the diagram. That is why there are lights on the model board.
Most modelers of course DO align their switches to match the layout of the diagram. What ever makes sense to you.
When using a machine like the GRS or the older "armstrong" lines of levers, the outside levers are painted red and control the signals, and the inner levers control the turnouts. Levers on the right control movements right to left on the model board, and levers on the left control movements left to right on the board. On a GRS machine there are all sorts of interlocks within the unit to forbid conflicting routes, and to not allow full movement of the lever until the switch motor reports back to the machine that the points are moved and locked.
With the "Armstrong" levers, it takes two levers to move a turnout. The first moves the points and the second locks them. If you cannot lock them you will have to go down to the tracks and sweep stones, ice or snow out of the switch points.
Only when all of the switches are properly aligned will the machine allow you to pass a clear signal to the railroad.
The indicators on the model board are *supposed* to show the locations and movements of trains through the plant. Since I cannot afford 200 train detectors mine functions for a different reason not related to the interlocking of the plant.
So decide if you want to control the turnouts from the diagram as do most modelers, or do you want to try to make a GRS or CTC type machine. Then all of your turnout controls would all be in a row with only the turnout indications on your model board. Obviously the LION likes his arrangement, but as you can see from my model board, I have no yards, and only a few pocket tracks to hide work trains or accommodate overnight layups. If you have a big layout you might have a diagram with switches for each yard, and then use CTC type arrangement for access to the mainline.
LIONS are happy to provide more information if you want. Detail's at the other end of the cat.
RAOR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
I bought a 4x8 sheet of 1/8 inch Masonite with a white plastic laminate on one side. It's the stuff they use to line shower stalls with. It was about $9 at Lowes. It's easy to cut and drill. The edges come out rough, though, so on my more recent panels I made a frame of 1x2s.
I picked up auto pinstriping tape in black, 1/8 inch, to make the schematic with. It works great and it's easy to change if necessary. Different widths and colors are available, too. Check your local auto supply place.
Tortoises use DPDT toggles. You are right in your interpretation of "stall motor." Power is left applied to the machine. I've found that the points stay solidly against the rails even with the power off, though, but I still wire them the standard way with constant power applied. They draw very little current. I run mine at 9 volts. Radio $hack is an expensive place to buy toggles. I've got some of the Micro Mark ones, and they work well, and I've also ordered from online places like Mouser or All Electronics.
Since the toggles remain in position, they can be used as indicators for a one-toggle installation. Some modelers like to control the same turnout from more than one place, in which case multiple DPDTs would be in series, and the position of the toggles might not represent the position of the points.
The Tortoise has two sets of SPDT contacts. These can be used to power the frog or to drive signals or panel indicator lights. Since the Tortoise runs on constantly-applied DC, you can also put bi-color, two-lead LEDs in series with the motor.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I build my control panels out of pine wood. Each panel is essentially a box with space for the toggle switches and wiring. The control panel has a hinged top to allow access for maintenance.
I draw my track diagrams in Power Point and then glue them to a Lexan panel with 3M 77 Spray Adhesive. The Lexan can be purchased at Home Depot. To avoid cracking, I drill a small hole and then use a reamer to get increase the size of the hole to 1/4 inch to mount the DPDT toggle switches.
I use DPDT toggle switches from Miniatronics. I avoid Center Off in favor of the On-On type.
You cross wire the four outer tabs on the DPDT in an X pattern. The center (middle) tabs are used to power the Tortoise. I draw power from a DC power pack).
I also use Miniatronics 5MM bi-polar LEDs for to indicate direction (green indicates straight through and red indicates divergent route).
My standard protocol is toggle lever down for straight through and toggle lever up for divergent route. If you don't use LED indicator lights for directional indicators, then that is the usual protocol for visual indication.
Here is a photo of my control panel.
Rich
Alton Junction
peahrens Another question as I plan an HO layout. It would be DCC with Tortoise turnout motors. Here are some questions that show I have a lot to learn. If any have threads or articles I should read please feel free to point out. I don't want to control the turnouts with the DCC cab, rather throw switches on a diagram type control panel. a) what materials are suggested for the control panel face: e.g., painted pelxiglas, sheet metal, etc b) how do you put the diagram on the panel: pinstriping, etc? c) what type toggle switches (e.g., DPDT) do I need for the Tortoise? Specific items and vendors (Radio Shack, Micro Mark, etc) would help. I don't know what the "stall motor" means...is there power constantly supplied even after the switch occurs, unlike the Atlas dual coil momentary powered turnout motors I used 25 years ago? is a 3-wire cord needed from the toggle switch to the Tortoise? d) if I use toggle switches and they are not center off, then I presume they will show the route position of the turnout visually and I don't need to add route indicator lights on the panel (a nice feature but extra work & expense) Any advice much appreciated as usual.
Question A:
I use two pieces of Lexan (polycarbonate) to make my control panels. The panels are 1/8" thick. The diagram is printed on plain generic computer paper on a Laser printer. (Laser Printers burn the ink into the paper so that even if the panel got wet it the ink wont run) If you want to print the images with an inkjet printer I suggest laminating the paper. The paper is sandwiched between the two pieces of Lexan.
I then drill the holes for the LED's and Switches (in the case of the panel above, push buttons). I used push buttons on this panels as I used stationary decoders for my mainline turnouts (they can be operated locally and by the dispatcher using the stationary decoders).
Start with the a small bit and drill all the holes in the panel. My smallest holes are for the mounting screws. I drill all the holes (Switches and LED's too) with this bit first and then come back with larger bits to finish. This helps eliminate cracking the lexan.
I suggest using Lexan over acrylic because Lexan is more forgiving when drilling holes in it. I have tried using other materials as the back plate behind the diagram (masonite, Sheet metal, birch plywood) but the Lexan is still my favorite.
Question B:
I use a computer (specifically MS Powerpoint) to create my diagrams. I then print them out at high resolution (1200 DPI) on a laser printer. I sandwich the diagram between the two pieces of lexan. I have posted the powerpoint files i use on my website here. i like it because you can print out copies ahead of time, make sure they fit the location you want them at, correct them easily if something changes or if you mess one up it can be easily reprinted.
Question C:
I use a couple different types but use predominately DPDT ON-ON switches (no center off position). A stall type turnout (like the tortoise) means there is power constantly running to the switch machine. It simply "stalls" when it reaches the endpoint of machine. It also has a very low current draw when it stalls so many can be used on a single power supply. Power must be kept on to the machine to keep it from creeping back to center from the spring tension in the wire connecting it to the turnout.
Only two wires are really need to operate the Tortoise. It has additional contacts that can be used for signals or powering turnout frogs.
As far as suppliers go my main supplier for electronic parts is www.allelectronics.com. They have all kinds of wire, switches, LED's Etc. I get my tortoise's from all over the place depending who has the best price at the time but my main source is Caboose Hobbies in Denver.
As far as wiring goes. The DPDT switch is connected such that the center terminals are connected to tortoise (pins 1 and 8) and the outer contacts are crossed (upper left to lower Right and Lower left to Upper right) and hooked up to the power supply
Question D:
IT is actually very little extra work to add indicator lights to the panel. The nice thing about tortoises is that because they each have such low current draw they act as resistors for LED's. You simply need to wire a set of Back to Back LED's in series with the tortoise. The only added cost is that of two LED's per Turnout ($0.30).
The switch can also indicate the position as well but I like have indicator lights (gives it more of a professional look).
I hope all this info helps! If you need any additional info please send me a message or check my website www.coloradofrontrangerr.com.
Colorado Front Range Railroad: http://www.coloradofrontrangerr.com/
What I did was use 2 sheets of plexiglas. I drew the diagram with Visio on my computer (Pait woud work if you don't have Visio, no need to spend hundreds on softwrae for this) and printed it out on fairly heavy cardstock paper, about as thick as my inkjet printer could handle. The printed image was sandwiched between the two sheets of plexit so it was protect (I also also painted the back sheet flat black first). This is the result:
I used Green LEDs for the normal route and yellow for the diverging, CTC panel style. The LEDs are wired in series with the Tortoise motor, so no resistors are needed. To make them neat int he panel, they are mounted in black plastic panel inserts, I got them at Radio Shack but you can purchase mass quantities for a lower price from a supplier like Mouser. The LEDs are the larger 5mm style.
On the back of the panel (don't have a picture of that) I had a small piece of perf board glued on to support a set of small terminal blocks. All the wiring on the back of the panel terminated here so that there were 2 terminals apart from the others (I got the terminal blocks from Mouser, they are stackable, so I bought the 2 position ones and they slide together to make 4, 6, or 8 or more) that was the 12V IN, and then, for this particualr panel, 6 positions that were the outs to each Tortoise (both Tortoises for each of the two crossovers shown cam off the same toggle). It all made for neat and easy wiring.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Randy,
I like your idea of sandwiching the card stock between two pieces of "glass".
How thick is each sheet of plexit?
richhotrain Randy, I like your idea of sandwiching the card stock between two pieces of "glass". How thick is each sheet of plexit? Rich
I would recommend Lexan (polycarbonate) over Plexiglass (acrylic) as Lexan is much more forgiving when it comes to drilling holes. Acrylic has a tendency to crack with very little pressure applied( as can be seen on the mounting hole screw of Randy's panel) It is very difficult to drill nicely without a drill press.
Lexan is a much more forgiving plastic and protects just as well. It is a tad more expensive but much less risk of cracking (both during drilling and . Lexan is less brittle and does better with drill bits.
As far as thickness goes. I use 2, 1/8" thick pieces (total 1/4" thick, one back, one front). I don't use any adhesive to hold the diagram in place. The static cling of the plastic is enough to hold it until I get the switches and LED's in place.
I drill the holes the same size as the LED's and simply superglue them in place. My LED's are also flat on top so they are flush with the panel surface.
That was my idiot using a power driver that cracked it - and that was only meant to be a temporary mount, I was planning to build a nice frame for each panel and mount the panels in the frame then mount the frame to the fascia that would eventually be installed - only I was in too much of a hurry. The whole layout is no more anyway.
The key to drilling is to NOT just drill the holes (which I again shortcutted), but instead use a reamer to enlarge the wholes to the final diameter needed for the toggles and LEDs. To do the drilling, I printed out another copy of the panel on plain paper, in B&W, and sandwiched the panels so all holes were drilled at the same time.
As for thickness, I don't exactly recall. fairly thin - 1/8" or so, because the LED bezels and toggles have a certain maximum thickness panel they can install in - I used that measurement as a guide. That's the only thing holdign the layers together as well - the nuts on the toggles. I didn;t glue anything. This goes back to the original plan, which was to route grouves in some peices of wood and make a frame to slide the panel in, this would have also held things together along the edges.
Thanks to all...lots of great info!
For my control panels, I used dry marker board material, painting the front of the panels flat black. I don't have diagrams on my panels, although I do put mini diagrams with the block IDs next to the panels for reference. Each block gets it's own unique ID which identified where it is. Most of my panels control five blocks, but my main panel at the east end of my yard (seen below) has 16 blocks that it controls.
Kevin
http://chatanuga.org/RailPage.html
http://chatanuga.org/WLMR.html
To say you guys do impressive work would be an understatement! I think you could put together a mission to Mars with just a bit more stuff (and likely less $ than NASA).
I need to show this stuff to my supervisor, who is reluctant to approve a layout I want to build in our game room that is "over twice the size of the 4 x 6 layout" I built for my grandson. It is, after all a hobby, and hobbies are healthy, right?
There's no rocket science onvolved here, really. If you can hook up one turnout, you can hook up 20. The difference between a mess and a neat panel is taking your time and doing things liek cutting the wires off to length rather than just use what you have. And consistently using the same wire - vs running 5 feet of red/black/green and then splicing in a paice of blue/yellow/black to reach. And label everything, because a year from now you're not going to remember which wire goes where. Since "turnout in right rear corner by brewery" is not easy to fit on labels, draw a track plan, even if it's just a basic pencil sketch, no need to be exactly to scale, just have all the tracks shown, and label the turnouts with numbers. Pick one and go around and number the rest. Use those numbers to label the wires and toggles. Keep a notebook with all this info in it.
LION knows all about neat wires. He also knows about the other kind.
LION mostly uses the other kind. Him likes to be able to trace his wires from control to the main cable, and from the main cable to the device. Him likes to move wires around. Panel innards start out nice and neat, but that is just the harness from the main cable. Connecting devices to it can be any color, any where with plenty of extra wire for tying it all together later.
LION gets most of his wire surplus, so him cannot be too fussy about colors.
ROAR
rrinker The difference between a mess and a neat panel is taking your time and doing things liek cutting the wires off to length rather than just use what you have. And consistently using the same wire - vs running 5 feet of red/black/green and then splicing in a paice of blue/yellow/black to reach.
The difference between a mess and a neat panel is taking your time and doing things liek cutting the wires off to length rather than just use what you have. And consistently using the same wire - vs running 5 feet of red/black/green and then splicing in a paice of blue/yellow/black to reach.
I could not agree more with Randy about the need to maintain consistency with colors of wire.
Another thing to take note of with the wiring is that only two wires need to run to each Tortoise from the DPDT on the control panel. I consistently use blue and yellow for this purpose.
Two wires need to run from each DPDT to the DC power pack, but instead of running a bunch of wires all of the way down to the power pack, only two wires need to be directly connected to the power pack. All of the wires from the various DPDT's can be joined together with the two wires running down to the power pack, taking care to maintain polarity. I use red and green wires for this purpose.
If signals are being powered by the Tortoises, all of the signals can be run from a single common wire that runs to the DC power pack. And, all of the Tortoises can be run from a single common wire wire that runs to the DC power pack. I use a white common wire acting as a "bus" wire for the signals with feeder wires from each signal to the bus. I use a black common wire acting as a "bus" wire for the Tortoises with feeder wires from each Tortoise to the bus.
In this way, you use a lot less wire, and the situation under the layout is a lot neater and less chaotic.
Tortoise machines only require ONE wire. One side of the machine is connected to a common ground.
The control wire is either +12v dc in the normal position or -12v dc in the reverse position. The same single conductor operates control panel indicators, wayside signals, and extra relays if they are required.
LION uses 50 conductor (25 pair cat 3 cable) running from the console around the layout with patch panels about every 15 to 20 feet. LION has a notebook. It says what number connector is used for what. That is the neat part of the wiring. Connections to and from this cable are rather ad hoc.
Other Wires:
What the LION could do is scrounge some old 66 blocks from telephone wiring and use them like terminal strips for the 25 pair. There are 4 connections per wire, so this allows the cable in, the cable out, and 2 taps for the panel at that location. Really neaten things up.
Actually the talk of the 25 pair cables reminds me of an old Eric LaNal article when he attempted to use such wire. And belatedly discovered that there are TWO of every color pair in such cable, because they just don't make wire in enough colors. The accompanying cartoon illustration had the illustrious HO pioneed trapped under his layout liek a fly in a spider web, with his wife handing in a bowl of soup for nourishment.
All of our old 66 block thingies ARE IN USE by our telephone system
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....
After seeing all the great work on this thread, I'm not sure why I'm doing this, unless it's to show a downer and dirtier approach that I followed to organize things while I finish my trackwork. I'm intending to professionalize these when I surround them with my fascia. In the meantime, I'm comfortable working with them and can operate the layout while I work on scenery, etc.
Some 3/8 ply, magic marker, and scrap 1 X 2 did it for me:
Rick Krall
Anything works in a pinch. Seen my cardboard temporary panel?
Couple of Tam Valley Singlets on a piece of cardboard ripped from the end flap of a box, with lines drawn with a Sharpie. When I put this in I didn't even have the layout complete around the room, I did this so I could switch the end of the yard. Where this panel is temporarily, there will be a penninsula for my cement plant, so I didn't want anything permanent.
---Randy
hi rick , If I can ask in your picture I think I see restitors in the upper part of the pictures .Counld you tell me where and what they go to ?? thank you
slow trainEd
Not Rick, but they look like wire labels to me, coming off the Tortoises? While his panel may be temprary, it looks liek the permanent part of his wiring is all neatly managed and labeled - critical for future maintenance. And it also looks liek he does what seems ot be often suggested but seldom done (based ont he "How do I solder wires to Tortoises under the layout" questions that pop up) - he attaches wires to the Tortoise BEFORE installing it, when you can sit at a comfortable workbench and do it.
I can pretty much guarantee that if you take the time to actually do this - label wires, run them neatly instead of having a rat's nest maze under the layout, etc. - your wiring will work, the trains will run, and you won't find wiring such an unpleasant task.
rrinker Not Rick, but they look like wire labels to me, coming off the Tortoises? [snip] --Randy
Not Rick, but they look like wire labels to me, coming off the Tortoises?
[snip]
Exactly, Randy--no resistors involved, and I do try to be neat. I also have numbered every feeder and connect everything through terminal blocks, whether feeders (every section of flextrack) or turnouts/turntable. And I do solder the tortoises at the bench, measuring the distance to the terminal block so I can cut the wire and orient and solder the spade lugs there, too. It does take time, but, as Valvoline said, "pay me now or pay me later." I'll vote for "now." I appreciate your comments which, coming from you, I take as compliments.
Slowtrain--I hope this answers your question.
Rick
Mine isn;t half as neat as yours. Sure I label things - eventually. Sure use things to hold wires up - eventually. I'm usually in too much of a hurry to get trains running. I think I have all my connected feeders now soldered - sometimes I just strip and wrap the wires and then come back later witht he soldering gun. None of them are currently insulated, evnetually I paint liquid electrical tape on them.
In the end it's fairly neat and orderly, and wires are tagged and recorded for later reference - I just more often than not fail to do this as I go along and end up going back. Next layout (hopefully it will be my final ultimate one), I will need to change this somewhat, since I plan to have detection sections and full signalling, instead of just a solid power bus, I will need taps for each detection section and that WILL have to be labeled up front so I can program it all.
Kind of like what my Dad used to say "Do as I say, not as I do"
Your dad was clearly a man of great wisdom!
I follow his axiom in other parts of my life but not in model railroading. This is too important!