This will be my 2nd 'real' layout in N scale. I plan on using Peco 55 flex track & turnouts. I have older locos & rolling stock so Atlas 55 is out.My 1st layout used Atlas custom switch motors (all Atlas track & turnouts) that have been around for decades. One problem (a huge headache that I don't want to repeat) was trying to mount and position at the same time a motor under the layout, upside down into plywood. A beyond frustrating exercise that was hard to tolerate. Drilling holes for the screws without moving the exact position of the motor was not easy.Anyway, I'm looking for pros & cons of the few available switch motors. My concerns are;1. Cost,2. Ability to work with DCC,3. Ability to have contacts for position lighting if I don't use DCC,4. Ease of mounting,5, Able to work with Peco turnouts.What I have found are;1. Peco (2 versions, no position contacts); http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Peco-HO-N-PL11-Side-Mounting-Turnout-Motor-p/pec-pl11.htmhttp://www.peco-uk.com/product.asp?strParents=3309&CAT_ID=3337&P_ID=176822. Tortoise; http://www.blwnscale.com/Circuitron.htm3. Atlas new style; https://secure.atlasrr.com/mod1/itemdesc.asp?ic=2065&eq=&Tp=4. Atlas old style (no position contacts); http://www.amainhobbies.com/product_info.php/cPath/1754_1758/products_id/80762/n/Atlas-Model-Railroad-HO-N-Gauge-Under-Table-Switch-Machine5. Rix; http://www.bakatronics.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=488
6. Tam Valley servos; http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/products/servosaccessories.html
The original Peco design would be the obvious choice except for this ("meteorite crater next to each and every one of your turnouts");http://nscaleadventures.blogspot.com/search/label/Track%20work
I don't want to drill & then try to conceal a huge hole for every turnout. This might be Ok for HO, but surely not for N! One would think as good as Peco track is, they would update their motors, making not just one for HO, but one for N also.
Not sure about this side mounted Peco design.
I'm leaning towards the newer Atlas design with position contacts. Tortoise seems to be somewhat more pricey.
Bruce,
'Under the Table' mounting is going to be somewhat time consuming no matter what type of motor/machine you install. I use Tortoise motors for the following reasons:
Those 'new' Atlas machine are just as expensive as a Tortoise. I mount my Tortoise motors per the instructions, but also drill a 1/16th inch hole about a foot past the points. I then use a steel rule and draw a line on the bottom of the plywood that follows the track above. This allows me to position the mounting template so that it is 'square' with the turnout - about 5-10 minutes for an install.
You might also want to investigate R/C servo motors - Tam Valley Depot has complete kits with the servo/controller, just the controller, or DCC enabled kits as well. The total cost is about the same as a single Tortoise motor(without the DCC stationary decoder).
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Elsewhere it was suggested these 'servo motors', but that looks more complicated, especially with the additional electronics.
I don't know if i will go DCC or not due to my existing loco roster.
The sly and cunning trick is to use remote mounting and get the switch throwing mechanism out where it can be worked on WITHOUT having to stand on one's head under the layout.
At the turnout, the points are driven with an Anderson link - a Z-shaped wire in a snug-fitting tube. The top arm of the Z drives the throwbar, the bottom arm is parallel to the fascia line (or at right angles to the drive cable if the latter is at an angle to the fascia.) The switch throwing device is mounted at the layout edge below scenery level, connected to the bottom arm of the Anderson link with a piece of fishing line(!) - which continues past the link to a screw eye and is weighted to hold the points in the preferred position. The weight can be anything from a couple of thread-stripped steel nuts to a gold nugget; it just has to be heavy enough to hold the points reliably.
The switch throwing device is mounted so that there is just a tad of slack in the fishing line when the points are normal, and just enough tension when the points are `reversed' to assure firm contact. The fishing line can have a long run, and can be steered around obstructions with screw eyes, but shouldn't cross (or be crossed by) another turnout control line or any wiring.
As far as switch `machines' go, I have used RIX and KTM (Kemtron imported) twin coil solenoids, and a variety of toggle and slide switches for manual control. There is no reason that servos , tortoi or other stall motors can't be used. (Joe Fugate even used door-securing barrel bolts!) The key isn't the brand name on the device, it's the fact that most of the installation and all of the wiring can be done while sitting on a comfortable chair in the aisleway.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in 1964)
tomikawaTTThe sly and cunning trick is to use remote mounting and get the switch throwing mechanism out where it can be worked on WITHOUT having to stand on one's head under the layout.
I forgot about Rix. I will add that.
Ignore the electronics, servos are no more ocmplicated than anythign else. You don;t need to understand how the servo controller works, you just plug the servo in and conenct power to the controller. There's no need to have a detailed understanding of how a pulse width modulation servo controller works, or even that this is what it's called. You need to know that the servo's wire plugs in here, and you connect power there.
It's like DCC, some peopel have the idea that if they don;t understand the DCC signal and data packet specifications they can't use DCC - hogwash. You need only interact with the system at the high level user interface, the details of the signal and how it all works are absolutely NOT required to be able to effectively use DCC.
The cost is extremely attractive. Slow motion for potentially well under the cost of other well-known slow motion machines.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Hi Bruce,
Only have Peco over here, I fit squares of photo card with holes cut for the lugs and a slot for drive pin, coated to match balast and surounding areas (our local DIY dose a great sand based paint they call swade effect) between the pointwork and the motor that is enough to cover the hole. This way there is never any problems as they are one unit.
In N the hole will all be to one side, with half the motor sticking out with the card covering everything plus a quarter inch, no sweat once all is lined up lift the card edge and stick down with water based PVA, even works on Midwestern Cork with the spare lugs bent flat and alowing extra for overlap.
As to DCC, in N and HO sorry forget the old stuff the wheel profiles cause all storts of problems, but using NMRA standards I've never had any trouble with shorts on pointwork, be it codes 55 & 83 in N or 75 & 100 in HO. I did have a top of the line HO AC12 throw a driver and cause all storts of problems, that is another story though.
Be in touch.
pick. PS tried the sidemount, not impressed, looked an uggly lump, I'm stick to under track.
I would buy one Tam Valley servo kit. Test it and see if you like it. The controller board has LED's for indicating the direction and it interfaces with DCC. It is less expensive than the Tortoise, and it comes with the DCC interface so you don't have to buy anything extra for DCC control.
I bought one and it looks and works really good. I haven't used it on my layout yet. If you don't like it for controlling the turnouts, you can use it for some animation project.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
And depending on what your layout surface is, they couldn;t be easier to mount. A friend of mine uses a 'traditional' plywood subroadbed (mostly cookie-cutter style with risers) and uses Gorilla Glue to attach his servos right to the plywood.Since there's not much motion, the hole isn;t large. The alternate is to use the cast resin mounts made by Motrak, the servo screws into the mount and then it gets attached to the benchwork int he same manner as a Tortoise. Still only a small hole is needed, because the range of motion is quite small with N scale.
Servos I get for under $3 each on ebay, and I've used just the Singlet controllers although if you have multipel turnouts in a given location, the Quad is a better deal (lower cost per turnout). The Octopus is the lowest cost but does not function as a DCC decoder, it just has locol control with pushbuttons and LED indicators. I only buy the Singlet kits - some kit, all youhave to solder on are 2 pushbuttons and 2 LED - and the polarity for the LEDs doesn't even matter, they are bicolor LEDs and the color is controlled via programing. Saves about $2 per unit for 5 minutes of soldering.
It appears I will be using a 3/8" base of plywood and some thickness of foam board on top. Two level, some hills, but that's it. No mountains or valleys.
The LION uses Tortoise machines. A few more $$ up front, but I have some that are on their fifth layout.
LION takes the template, shreds it up, and feeds it to the Wildebeest. The LION then drills one hole, directly below where the throw rod would be, and him makes the hole a little on the "bigger side" about 3/8 of an inch, maybe more.
Manually set the actuator to the center position, and put a glob of silicone caulk on the top surface of the machine. Poke the actuator up through the hole in the table and the hole in the throw rod, and adjust the position so that the switch points are also in the middle and not touching either running rail and the rod and the machine are plum to the track. You may need to prop it in place while the caulk sets, if you have heavy wires attached to the machine this will be necessary, with a pair of light weight wires, the extra prop may not be necessary.
The Tortoise machine is very forgiving in its installation, and will work there indefinitely, yet if you need to move it to a different switch or something, just pop it off and it is clean and ready to go.
The other way that a Tortoise machine saves you money, is that the switches that you use to actuate it are much cheaper, and you only run one wire to the switch machine, and that one wire can control signals and indicators, and you can attach a relay to that one wire if you need more options for track power or signal logic.
LIONS *like* simple!
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
the switches that you use to actuate it are much cheaper, and you only run one wire to the switch machine, and that one wire can control signals and indicators, and you can attach a relay to that one wire if you need more options for track power or signal logic.
Does the Tortoise have included contacts for turnout position so no additional set of contacts are needed?
Tortoises have contacts. Servos, you just plug a relay in to the controller. Keep in mind with servos, that 'complicated electroncis' really jsut menas you plkug in a 3 wire cable and you have controla nd LEDs to indicate position. You'e not BUILDING the electronics.
Gotta reveal the whole thing, how one wire back to the panel can control a Tortoise. You need two power supplies, to give a +/- 9-12 volts plus a common. Or an AC supply and a pair of diodes for each Tortoise. The common runs aroudn the layout and connects to each Tortoise. The +/1 goes to the control panel and each toggle switch, and then 1 single wire runs from the panel to each Tortoise.
Or you can go DCC and be really simple - each panel could plug into the layout with a single 6-conductor phone wire. The buttons on the panel would activate DCC input devices which woudl send signals to stationary decoders on each turnout.
Servos are still my weapon of choice, there are controller options for DCC and not DCC, and you can get 6 servos for $13. Nothing else comes close. The throw is over a wide range plus they are adjustable, so absolute precision in centerign them under the turnout isn't required. Close is good enough, final adjustments are made by pressing the controller buttons from the top, not while working upside down. You cn even just stick them on the underside of the plywood with Gorilla Glue or caulk, no screws or drillign holes from the bottom.
With servos, you still need a SPST toggle or two pushbuttons, correct?
The controller has all that already. Along with LEDs to indicate position. At least with the Tam Valley ones.