I may have asked this in the past and if I did I apologize. It's been a while since I was on this site and can't seem to find the 'search' button anymore.
It seems that it would be possible to have a device inside your loco that could "talk" to the DCC decoder while receiving it's orders from a blue-tooth device.
It seems to me that if that were the case, one would only have to provide steady 12-volt power to the rails.
With a bluetooth-enabled decoder, you could control the loco with any bluetooth device like an iPhone or even a Wii remote.
I'd try to figure this out myself, but I am electronics stupid. I'm more of a wrench and pipe kinda guy.
Well, the device inside your locomotive would BE the decoder - which would receive and utilize the commands sent over the rails by the base station. Now... I don't seem to remember there being a system that had bluetooth functionality, but it doesn't mean you COULDN'T do it - there would just be a bit of MacGyver'ism involved. Basically, you'd have to make a computer that accepted bluetooth pairings - and output DCC commands over the rail terminals. If you were a computer programmer, such a prospect might not even be that daunting, except that you'd need to find a computer -> rail interface.
I think you misunderstand the idea.
I want to remove the computer and DCC signal in the tracks entirely. In fact, it would not be DCC as you think of it at all.
You could supply plain-old 1905 12-volt DC power to the tracks using whatever source you like: an MRC power supply, simple 110v AC to 12v DC transformer, heck even battieres.
Then, the bluetooth "throttle" be it a Wii remote, iPhone etc would send a bluetooth signal directly to the engine through the air.
This would eliminate the problem some layouts have with losing signal to the loco due to bad trackwork.
WaxonWaxov I think you misunderstand the idea. I want to remove the computer and DCC signal in the tracks entirely. In fact, it would not be DCC as you think of it at all. You could supply plain-old 1905 12-volt DC power to the tracks using whatever source you like: an MRC power supply, simple 110v AC to 12v DC transformer, heck even battieres. Then, the bluetooth "throttle" be it a Wii remote, iPhone etc would send a bluetooth signal directly to the engine through the air. This would eliminate the problem some layouts have with losing signal to the loco due to bad trackwork.
I'm thinking you misunderstand the nature of DCC. The major difference between DCC and earlier command control systems is that the command signal is also the motor power. They are one and the same waveform, and cannot be separated.
Earlier command control systems would superimpose a command signal on the DC (or AC) power.
The DCC decoder rectifies the DCC waveform to produce DC power for the motor. The pulses are "read" by the decoder and translated into commands by the microprocessor in the decoder. The decoder then applies pulse width modulation to the DC power to obtain the commanded response from the motor.
The downside of any control system that uses the rails for power and command is that poor pickup at the locomotive loses both power and command to the motor. If you install a radio command system (your Bluetooth example) you still have to pick up power from the rails. I don't know of any cases in DCC where the command signal was lost but power was retained. What gives the appearance of loss of command but not power is that during a momentary power dropout, an older DCC decoder would reset to its initial state, but the locomotive would coast through the power outage - especially if flywheel equipped. Newer DCC decoders either continue current state or slow deceleration during momentary outages. Anything more than a momentary outage is going to shut the locomotive down unless equipped with substantial "stay alive" capacity.
Aristo and Lynx already offer wireless systems that do exactly what you want your Bluetooth system to do. A wireless command is sent to a receiver/decoder in the locomotive, which then modulates the power in the rails (or to the rails if the receiver/decoder is not on board the locomotive). In large scales, batteries in the locomotive or trailing car solve erratic power pickup from the rails. When combining on board battery power with wireless command, you are truly liberated from electrical pickup problems. But until on board battery power becomes practical in HO scale, there is no material advantage to transmitting the command signal wirelessly direct to the locomotive.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
For some technical reasons, Bluetooth is probably the wrong wireless standard and network topology for this application.
As Fred noted, Rail-Lynx was a similar system based on Infrared (also a suboptimal wireless technology, since it's primarily line-of-sight). I don't know the status of this company, their website was a bit out-of-date the last time I looked.
Wireless radio signals propagate poorly through water. Human beings are mostly water. Thus, in an indoor model railroading application, there will often be a big bag of water (another human) between the hand-held controller and the engine you would like to control.
Antenna size and orientation is also limited for installing in the smaller scales. Generally speaking, larger antennas work better.
900 MHz is a more likely candidate frequency for this sort of direct control, but it's probably more practical for G scale at this time. These systems exist.
For the time being, the current wireless DCC systems work very well for most people in indoor applications because the receiving antenna can be sized appropriately and located to avoid propagation problems.
Byron
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
The decoder in the engine is not a Wi-Fi or blue tooth enabled device. It just responds to DCC commands that are sent over the track. You would need some kind of isolated communication device to interface to the decoder's logic.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
jrbernier You would need some kind of isolated communication device to interface to the decoder's logic.
You would need some kind of isolated communication device to interface to the decoder's logic.
Which would take up valuable space inside the loco shell.......
WaxonWaxov This would eliminate the problem some layouts have with losing signal to the loco due to bad trackwork.
No it wouldn't.
You're still relying on trackwork to bring power to the motor, decoder and whatever bluetooth device you have that will provide control.
Lose power over a bad spot of track and you lost control. Your iphone, wii remote, smart phone or whatever bluetooth xmit device you have still wouldn't help. The track is what is providing the POWER.
You'll still need GOOD trackwork to insure uninterrupted power. No way of getting around that.
Unless......
You don't supply power thru the track at all and have an on board power supply (i.e. LiPo battery). Do that and you can have the crappiest trackwork and the loco will still run and receive control inputs.
duplicate
I think what the OP is proposing is a device that would actually replace a DCC decoder, and would receive it's commands via Bluetooth while receiving power via the rails. But personally, I don't think that would be an improvement over DCC.
As others have mentioned, transmitting to small, moving antennas in a room full of water bags could be problematical. Plus, you'd still need a track power distribution system that would probably be very similar to what you'd use for DCC anyway.
I don't see any advantage to the idea.
What you're talking about is an RC train. It of course could be done since there are RC cars, boats, and planes. The only real issue is going behind objects like tunnels etc. Another issue would be coming up with a standard etc and having it accepted by the community. Then there's still the need for turnout control, signaling etc. IMO it's not worth it. The I phone throttles I've seen work but are a gimmick and cause interference with other devices.
Springfield PA
Interesting points and thoughts.'
It was just an idea.
Thanks all.
This could be done if some one would make it. Download app on smart phone. 2nd install a dcc chip that has a blue tooth transever built in. 3 place locomotive on any dcc powered track any manufacured brand would do. 4 operate your locoes with your smart phone. range might be an issue on large layouts but a repeater could be added to extend range. Ring has the closest system to this its not blue tooth and you still need to buy there cab but this is a do-able thing.
Actually, Bachmann has announced a Bluetooth controlled locomotive:
http://resources.bachmanntrains.com/ihobby2014/
CSX Robert Actually, Bachmann has announced a Bluetooth controlled locomotive: http://resources.bachmanntrains.com/ihobby2014/
Yea. Why invent the wheel again.
There are three companies right now marketing wireless controlled HO trains. No power needed to the track.
I have seen the discussions in a better train forum.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Having watched VHS vs. Betamax, Microsoft/Intel vs Apple and DCC vs DCS, it's not at all clear to me that competing technologies in a mature product are good for us.
All DCC locomotives work on all DCC systems. That's good. We are not constrained by any manufacturer, thanks to the NMRA for setting up the standard.
I really like my Lenz DCC system and my CVP wireless throttles, too. But, I can't take my throttles to another non-Lenz layout, nor can I plug my CVP wireless box into anything but Lenz. (CVP makes other wireless base stations, but they are different hardware.) Here is a case where, because of the proliferation of systems without standards, we are constrained and can't always pick the best option.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
WaxonWaxovIt seems that it would be possible to have a device inside your loco that could "talk" to the DCC decoder while receiving it's orders from a blue-tooth device.
anything is possible ... at a cost
there are RF tranciever modules that could be used to communicate with the decoder instead of directly through the rails. That device would probably increase the size and cost of the decoder by $10. It would probably re-use the same messages and protocols as DCC.
and unless you use a keep-alive circuit or maybe use batteries (more $$), you still need clean tracks to provide power
is it worth the additional $$ per decoder?
or maybe having a bluetooth link to the command station is really what you're after?
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
gregcor maybe having a bluetooth link to the command station is really what you're after?
Now, this is the kind of idea that we need. Suppose CVP / EasyDCC, who makes add-on wireless throttle systems, were to come out with an interface (and the corresponding app) that could turn your phone into a throttle, in addition to supporting their own wireless throttles. This "works within the system" because it does not need additional decoders or electronics in the locomotives.
Digitrax was working on something like this. It's been delayed or canceled.
Because you can do this TODAY, or for the past 4 years or more - with JMRI. Same app, it's available for iOS and Android, and anyone with JMRI and wifi in their house, you can take your iOS or Android smartphone and use it as a throttle. Or you could take the whole system - with Win7 and up you can just use a laptop with wifi and do an ad-hoc connection, no access point needed. Pretty sure Macbooks can do this too. The WiThrottle/Engine Driver apps ARE universal throttles, today.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I am not totally familiar with Bluetooth other than with the iPad and phone with a speaker. But my question is if the Bluetooth receiver is on the locomotive and if the locomotive loses power do you have to 'pair' with the locomotive? If the signal is dropped or lost due to dirty track does the train stop?
I heard the announcement on the Bachmann wireless system but all they said is wireless. Is it still DCC? I would believe they would stay NMRA compatible and maybe sell their decoders separately but they could also remain proprietary. Will all of the locomotives for this system use the same drive system or will we still need to do speed matching? Can this be done from an Android / IOS platform, or do you connect to the locomotive with a computer and use a proprietary program for programming? Just questions I have right now and I will be watching for additional information on this system for my own curiosity.
Kevin
No, once devices are paired they stay that way unless removed - something some people who rent cars ought to remember - I had a rental that could do BT with my phone but it wouldn;t let me pair it. Finally figured out there's a limit of 3 or 4 devices it can pair with, and all the slots were full from previous renters. I erased them and my phone then worked. ANd before I dropped it off, I erased my phone.
My headset does not need to be paired every time I power it on. Nor did my Christmas lights - the ones I got are LEDs with multiple patterns and are controlled by an iOS or Android app via BT. I can even play music and the lights play in time to the music.
The Bachmann thing is a proprietery BT device. No idea if they plan to sell the decoder portion seperately. This may just be a test to see how many are interested in such a system. No idea, and they haven't said, if it uses NMRA DCC commands over BT.
While the pairing is persistent, there is still a rather significant handshaking protocol that you have to go through every time the connection is broken and reestablished. With intermittent connection quality, you would get tired of Bluetooth pretty quick.
One thing that seems to get overlooked these days is that a wired connection is still superior - by a lot. Wirelessness only improves mobility. You are making a sacrifice in signal quality to do anything wirelessly. Compare your $600 iPhone to a $60 corded phone. If you are going to use the track to carry the power to the locomotive anyway, you would be making that signal quality sacrifice and getting nothing in return.
And, btw, Bluetooth is a deliberately weak signal so devices don't interfere with each other. If you want wireless locomotive control, there are better ways to do it than Bluetooth.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Bachmann has Blue Tooth decoders and a free EZ-APP online that can be used with any iPhone or Droid based device with blue tooth 4.0 or higher. I saw a demonstration of it yesterday at their facilities. All it requires is constant power on the tracks, either DC or DCC. Sound right now is from your mobile device or a blue tooth speaker.. They are working with SoundTraxx to come up with a supplimental sound board. Demos can be seen at HobbyTown USA in Frederick and Easton, MD as well as others in the Northeast.
Note the date of the original post on this thread, 2011. A lot has happened in six years.
I can't believe there is not more talk about this on forums. Everything I find is at least couple years old. I just purchased a dead rail kit from blue rail. Their support is horrible, I can't get any questions answered. The system it self seems OK, but they only seem to talk about tracks with power already. My track will have no power, I'm using either a dummy loco or a boxcar behind to hold the battery. Oh my track is HO. I'm trying to figure out if there is no track power, why isolate the motor? And why can it only be used on can motors and not pancake. I have several f7 with pancakes that run great.