After the silly introduction, you will see a $1,000 DCC controller that is state of the art. Is it worth it? Or just bells and whistles?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j3aq8MnxPE&feature=related
The ESU ECoS is probably (alongside the Viessmann commander) the most competent DCC system you can get. It has MANY fetures inside it that makes it not as expensive in the end......
Possibility for automation, signals, iPad and iPhone control, computerinterface, trackplan on the screen etc. etc.
Not so much more money when compared with the other high end systems on the market.
Zimo and Massoth are way up there as well.....
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OK if you like video games, I suppose. The system may indeed have built in control for lots of useful things but the whole interface is just overboard. Prime example, the motorozed potentiometer speed knobs - an encoder would do the same without the complications (more to break) of the motorized knobs. Since they ARE potentiometer knobs, the on-screen display of the knob position is somewhat superfilous. And the function buttons light up when activated AND the screen changes? Again, why both? A controlelr where the F buttons lit up to indicate activation might be useful, as an alternative to displaying a small number on the screen for each one.
It's certainly a well-bit system but it is horribly expensive - regardless of what else might be int he command station, if all that stuff is built in, then why do the add ons ALSO cost so much? There's a greater trend towards automation among the Germans, and if the intent is to fully automate your layout this might be a better choice then the more basic other brands.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Too large. I want something I can carry around the train room in one hand.
I have bought a lot of stuff from Alex at DCC Train, though.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
rrinker It's certainly a well-bit system but it is horribly expensive - regardless of what else might be int he command station, if all that stuff is built in, then why do the add ons ALSO cost so much? There's a greater trend towards automation among the Germans, and if the intent is to fully automate your layout this might be a better choice then the more basic other brands. --Randy
All other things are interchangeable with all DCC conformant articles, i.e: Switch decoders, feedback detectors, Boosters and even S88 occupancy detectors.
It even has a real smart shuttle-function.
See this link for more:
ESU ECoS info
And the price? Compare it with a NCE Power Pro 5 A at $529 and it seems to be a bad deal, but it all comes down to what you want or need.....
LOL I will have to get totally plastered before I would even try to program that thing. Thats more then my whole investment to date.
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$1,000 ???
Nothing on my layout cost me $1,000 except for the ballast - - - LOL
Rich
Alton Junction
Let's see, my NCE pro system gives me radio, it gives me sound, it gives me all sorts of options, it even runs my trains. No way do I need a one thousand dollar system to do the same, plus my wife could have me committed for spending that kind of money for something I already have.
Bob
Graffen The ESU ECoS is probably (alongside the Viessmann commander) the most competent DCC system you can get. It has MANY fetures inside it that makes it not as expensive in the end...... Possibility for automation, signals, iPad and iPhone control, computerinterface, trackplan on the screen etc. etc. Not so much more money when compared with the other high end systems on the market. Zimo and Massoth are way up there as well.....
iPad and IPhone control? Why would I pay $1,000 for this thing, just to go buy and iPhone to then be able to walk around with my train when I can just buy any of the radio throttles offered by Digitrax, NCE, or CVP?
I know, the response will be "many people already have an iPhone and now it can do more". Well I don't have one, I don't need one, and I would not want to run my trains with one.
As for programing anyone saying "decoder pro"? Computer automation or CTC, Railroad & Company and that other freeware one????? They seem to be working fine for the guys I know interested in that stuff.
As you all know, I don't have DCC at home, but I use it on more than a half dozen other layouts I operate on regularly.
NOBODY I know has any insterest in a "console" type controller like this.
And only two of my friends are doing the computer, signaling, dispatching thing. Neither has any interest in train automation.
I see an almost zero market for this among US modelers. As a group, US modelers with medium to large layouts abandoned the idea of fixed cab/control locations two decades before DCC.
As I have said before - What is the point of DCC if it is not wireless and handheld?
Heck, I don't use DCC but control my trains with a wireless handheld - one that only uses 5 buttons to control the train and is a lot more ergonomic than anything ESU is selling.
The whole point of good user interface design is to only present the operator with the controls/choices he needs - not over whelm him with buttons and displays - it should be about the trains, not the controller. That's why I prefer the Digitrax UT4R or the CVP wireless unit.
All that extra stuff that thing will do, should be isolated from the day to day operation of a train.
Just my thoughts,
Sheldon
With JMRI you can use an iPhone, iPod Touch, or Android device with any supported DCC system. I wouldn't run out an buy one just for that - but since I and many friends already have suitable devices and I also already have WiFi in my house, it essentially becomes a free add on. I'd own an iPhone anyway. I'd have the WiFi anyway. I'd have the interface to the DCC system to use JMRI anyway. The only incremental cost was the app, $5 for the iPhone. It's one of two apps on my phone that I have ever paid for.
It's not an invalid argument. In fact I really think you need to have someone show you. You like simple interfaces, this is it. There's only a few buttons and the primary function is simply drive the train. ANd comparing how an app like this works on a device like an iPhone vs the clunky and mostly useless apps on a plain old phone - well, that's not even close.
No, it does not make cost sense to go out and buy an iPhone just to use as a control device. And I don't think anyone else is is advocating this. It's just one additional OPTION.
This really has me amussed, so a few more thoughts:
To the folks at ESU - wireless controllers need to provide one hand operation.
ALL eight of my Aristo Train Engineers together did not cost $1,000, but they have gone up a little since than, it would cost $1,200 or so to replace them today - 8 throttles vs two throttles?????
OK, I know mine is not DCC. But my intire pushbutton walk around block control, turnout control, CTC, signaling system for a layout that has 800 feet of double track mainline, runs 8 trains at once, has 100 turnouts on the CTC system supports 35 staged trains with over 100 powered locos and has the above mentioned wireless radio throttles, only has an infrastructure equipment cost of about $3,500 - remenber, $900 of that is the eight throttles and another $200 the eight power supplies for them. The other big cost is detection - about $800 for the whole layout.
So I should go to DCC, buy 120 decoders and a $1,000 controller for two trains?
And then I should replace my $5 per turnout control system that gives me CTC and tower controls and signal interlocking with a bunch of expensive stationary decoders so I can let a computer do that work?
Oh, quess what, I don't think my track plan will fit on their cute litle screen, guess that's out.
Don't get me wrong, I understand the virtures of DCC, and for those who want sound, or have specific operational goals, or who are adverse to hard wired logic, I get it. But ESU does not seem to get the needs or wants of North American modelers, especially modelers willing to spend that kind of money.
$1000 - that sure blows a lot of the already excessive $2000 budget in one shot.
But what do I know, I still run little trains without brains.
rrinker With JMRI you can use an iPhone, iPod Touch, or Android device with any supported DCC system. I wouldn't run out an buy one just for that - but since I and many friends already have suitable devices and I also already have WiFi in my house, it essentially becomes a free add on. I'd own an iPhone anyway. I'd have the WiFi anyway. I'd have the interface to the DCC system to use JMRI anyway. The only incremental cost was the app, $5 for the iPhone. It's one of two apps on my phone that I have ever paid for. It's not an invalid argument. In fact I really think you need to have someone show you. You like simple interfaces, this is it. There's only a few buttons and the primary function is simply drive the train. ANd comparing how an app like this works on a device like an iPhone vs the clunky and mostly useless apps on a plain old phone - well, that's not even close. No, it does not make cost sense to go out and buy an iPhone just to use as a control device. And I don't think anyone else is is advocating this. It's just one additional OPTION. --Randy
That's it! JMRI, that is what my friends are using - why couldn't I remember that - must be getting old.
Randy, I understand, but I'm not buying an iPhone in any case for any reason. My layout is in the attic of my detached garage - My WiFi does not work out there. I don't use a cell phone for anything other than to "talk to people" - no internet, no photos, no keyboard, no text messages, no NEED, no interest. I have the cheapest, simplest flip phone thay had - and I've had the same one for 3-4 years now - not broken - does not need fixing or replacing.
All that assumes I had any desire for DCC, which I do admit might be the case if I ever changed scales or layout themes - but for the current one to which I am heavily committed - not going to happen.
I don't like touch screens, I like old fashoioned clunky buttons, I don't like "toggling" thru anything, yes, I'm old fashioned about this stuff. And for my needs my way costs much less.
BUT, as someone who does use DCC (mostly Digitrax) a lot, on a number of other layouts, I am interested in and do keep up with what is being done. Especially since I am one of the "electrical" guys in our group and do get called on for help from time to time - even with the DCC.
Again, what is the point of DCC if it is not wireless and handheld?
I know, so I can set at the edge of the my 4x16 layout and try to keep two trains from running into each other while I blow the whistles and horns and play with the lights - right? Well that's not my idea of model railroading - but that looks like the main thing that controller would be for - an "HO Highrail" layout - like Marklin maybe?
Again, ESU has not got a clue about North American HO or N scale model railroading.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL This really has me amussed, so a few more thoughts: Oh, quess what, I don't think my track plan will fit on their cute litle screen, guess that's out. Don't get me wrong, I understand the virtures of DCC, and for those who want sound, or have specific operational goals, or who are adverse to hard wired logic, I get it. But ESU does not seem to get the needs or wants of North American modelers, especially modelers willing to spend that kind of money. $1000 - that sure blows a lot of the already excessive $2000 budget in one shot. But what do I know, I still run little trains without brains. Sheldon
Firstly, it´s better to read about it before you reply. So you mean that your layout don´t fit on 99 pages? Allow me to have doubts of that!
And the price (again), sure it will blow a lot of funds in one go. But that is a ONE TIME investment......
I don´t get how someone can think it´s expensive. It´s a lot of money, but if it is useful it isn´t expensive.
The way this command station is designed is that you should use handheld throttles as well. The command station just replaces the PC. It controls signals etc. etc.
But sure, some people won´t like the design, but instead seems to like the 1980 designs of certain DCC systems........
Graffen ATLANTIC CENTRAL: This really has me amussed, so a few more thoughts: Oh, quess what, I don't think my track plan will fit on their cute litle screen, guess that's out. Don't get me wrong, I understand the virtures of DCC, and for those who want sound, or have specific operational goals, or who are adverse to hard wired logic, I get it. But ESU does not seem to get the needs or wants of North American modelers, especially modelers willing to spend that kind of money. $1000 - that sure blows a lot of the already excessive $2000 budget in one shot. But what do I know, I still run little trains without brains. Sheldon You really have a knack for "knowing" what other people want..... Firstly, it´s better to read about it before you reply. So you mean that your layout don´t fit on 99 pages? Allow me to have doubts of that! And the price (again), sure it will blow a lot of funds in one go. But that is a ONE TIME investment...... I don´t get how someone can think it´s expensive. It´s a lot of money, but if it is useful it isn´t expensive. The way this command station is designed is that you should use handheld throttles as well. The command station just replaces the PC. It controls signals etc. etc. But sure, some people won´t like the design, but instead seems to like the 1980 designs of certain DCC systems........
ATLANTIC CENTRAL: This really has me amussed, so a few more thoughts: Oh, quess what, I don't think my track plan will fit on their cute litle screen, guess that's out. Don't get me wrong, I understand the virtures of DCC, and for those who want sound, or have specific operational goals, or who are adverse to hard wired logic, I get it. But ESU does not seem to get the needs or wants of North American modelers, especially modelers willing to spend that kind of money. $1000 - that sure blows a lot of the already excessive $2000 budget in one shot. But what do I know, I still run little trains without brains. Sheldon
My "view" of what others want is based on the current DCC users I know personally, who's layouts I operate on (one of which I designed the track plan for), all of which are "basement filling empires" AND from following this and other fourms, AND from following the model press.
AGREED, it is not a perfect survey by any means and it is only my OPINION that not many US modelers will want a product like this.
99 pages - as previously stated I have no desire to toggle or scroll through data or choices on such a device - I don't use a computer for my signaling or CTC for the same reason, even a big monitor is not to my liking for that sort of thing, and would be too expensive - I can look at my whole CTC panel at once.
I don't read books on anoying little computer pad screens that require all that scrolling up/down.
I don't like the Digitrax DT400 either. Display to small, too many buttons that are too small and too close together, I hate the "icon" images rather than words, I don't like the endless encoder knobs even the fact that it controls two trains - never saw a real engineer run two seperate trains at once.
Use with wireless the throttles? - Like the one they sell - no thank you.
"I don´t get how someone can think it´s expensive. It´s a lot of money, but if it is useful it isn´t expensive."
This assumes you need or want to do ALL the things it does. And it assumes there are not more cost effective ways to do those things.
EVEN if I used a basic wireless radio DCC system to run my trains, my hard wired intergrated turnout control and signaling system would be way less expensive than all the stationary decoders and other interface hardware to do complete CTC signaling and interlocking using this or any other computer based system.
Like many such systems, these "building block plug and play" type products are very expensive to use on large layouts - ESU is not alone on this point - I looked very hard at all the options before going the route I did. And even with some advances and improvements, such systems are still expensive.
NOW maybe if you are paying someone to install your system, than solid state may be less expensive - becaue I do have design hard wire logic circuits and wire them. But for me it is a hobby of building things, rolling stock, structures, locos, scenery, trackwork and control systems.
So if you not doing the "building" or don't know how, I guess you need a big check book - $2,000 a year is starting to sound pretty low to me.
One more thought:
IF I was going to buy a DCC system, it would be CVP Products Easy DCC - hands down.
Nice base station for programing, setup, simple wireless throttles.
It would be used only to control speed and direction of trains - AND sound if I was using it for a scale larger than HO.
All other systems, CTC, signaling, turnout control, etc would still be by other means based on current offerings.
No matter how sophisticated it is, I still prefer a handheld Throttel/cab.
Truck.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL ...Again, ESU has not got a clue about North American HO or N scale model railroading...
...Again, ESU has not got a clue about North American HO or N scale model railroading...
I doubt it is a case of them not understanding North American model railroading, but more a matter of they don't care about North American railroading. This system is targeted to the European market, not the North American market.
I have no desire for a system like this, I can do what it will do for less money using a hand-me-down computer, JMRI and Digitrax, and actually have a more powerful and flexible system; however, I can see the appeal for some people. Again, this is intended for the Eurpoean market, where I suspect you are less likely to have a hand-me-down computer you can dedicate to the layout and you are less likely to have sprawling walk around layouts. I can also see the advantages to having an all-in-one system instead of a separate DCC system and computer.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL ...so I can set at the edge of the my 4x16 layout and try to keep two trains from running into each other while I blow the whistles and horns and play with the lights - right? Well that's not my idea of model railroading...
...so I can set at the edge of the my 4x16 layout and try to keep two trains from running into each other while I blow the whistles and horns and play with the lights - right? Well that's not my idea of model railroading...
I suspect ESU doesn't really care what YOUR idea of Model Railroading is. A lot of people do not have the space for a sprawling walk around layout, and even a 4x16 is considered large by many people. Besides, plenty of Model Railroading can be done in small spaces.
It's pretty nice eye candy but would get old in a hurry with me.
As Randy noted, JMRI has the ability to use wireless devices besides radio throttles. A few people at the club have run using their smart phones with Wifi. Even the novalty with those wears off pretty quick. It's like wow that was neat, now hand me my 402D.
Springfield PA