I just installed a Digitrax DS44 stationary decoder for controlling up to 4 slow motion turnout motors. I like the way it allows me to control a turnout from my Zephyr without having to go to the facia panel, but it then dawned on me, can I still control it from the toggle switch? I now am using the track buss to power the Tortise and also can I stil use Bi-color LEDs at the turnout location or on the facia panel with the toggle switches? I haven't attempted to combine the two as I don't know what it may do? My other Tortise motors are powered from my old DC power pack. Is there any way to control a turnout from both places? If so, how would I power it? I hope this doesn't sound dumb but I don't know the answer and just recently (within the past 2 days) read that it is not wise to use the DCC power supply for turnout motors..I think someone was asking about having to use a separate power supply for their turnouts.If it is not a good idea to use the DCC for turnout motors, then why would Digitrax and others make these decoders? Just trying to analyze it as I go here. Any thoughts on this?
Thanks,
Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
Two reasons NOT to use DCC power for turnouts:
1. DCC power is 'expensive' - a booster and power supply costs a lot more than a basic power supply.
2. If you power directly fromt he track power, what happens you run run a loco into a turnout you have set the wrong way? It shorts out and cuts off track power. The short could be fixed by throwing the turnout the other way but...oops, track power is down.
SO at a minimum you would want to make the track power and the decoder power two different power districts. One circuit breaker is enough - use that for the track power. Tap off BEFORE the circuit breaker for the stationary decoders. Then when the track is shorted, only the breaker will trip and power will be up for the stationary decoders. I have a DB150 hooked to my track, my Zephyr is the command station, and the power output of the Zephyr goes to the stationary decoders.
It's not a HUGE issue with Tortoises, they only draw about 18ma each, 100 of them would eat into your DCC power pretty good (1.8 amps) but 10 or 12 is still less than most HO locos draw.
As for local controls, the DS44 is not the device to use if you want both DCC and conventional controls. You can't use a toggle, unless you don't care that 'closed' and 'thrown' won't match up with the actual turnout position, and the position of the toggle handle won't match up either. You need something a little fancier to all work together, like a DS64. It has inputs that you can hook to a pushbutton to operate the turnout from the panel, or you can use the throttle and send DCC commands to move them
ANother one that works well with Tortoises is the NCE Switch-It. These have connections for buttons as well as using DCC commands.
Or something completely different - instead of Torotise I use RC servos. And controlelrs from Tam Valley. These give me buttons for my panel, with LED indicators, plus DCC control. Total cost is about the same as a Tortoise, for the controller plus a servo.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I have 27 NCE Switch Its powering all turnouts on the mainline. Aside from being super simple to install without a ton of extra wiring, they are used to allow easy dispatcher control and signaling. If you've got a DCC system and not using the decoders, you're not using the full potential of the system.
Very easy to hook up local pushbuttons and LEDs, without a ton of extra wiring. I'm not familar with the DigiTrax units, but I'd imagine they should be similar.
Larry
http://www.youtube.com/user/ClinchValleySD40
http://www.flickr.com/photos/52481330@N05/
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showgallery.php/cat/500/page/1/ppuser/8745/sl/c
I would like to add some information you may not know. I had a Switch-it to start out but soon needed more as turnouts were added. So I bought the Switch-8. Alas, no more toggle switches were allowed. Only DCC.
73
Bruce in the Peg
Blind Bruce I would like to add some information you may not know. I had a Switch-it to start out but soon needed more as turnouts were added. So I bought the Switch-8. Alas, no more toggle switches were allowed. Only DCC.
Yeah, that is a bummer. I wonder why when they come out with new products they don't keep some of the old features.
You can still use a toggle switch. Wire the output to a DPDT switch crossing the NO and NC contacts and feed the turnout with the common. Whatever the position of the switch you can reverse it with the toggle.
The other thing you can do is use a DS64, which allows DCC control as well as switch inputs.
Springfield PA
Tortoise machines can be controlled in one of two ways. By a DCC stationary decoder like the DS 54 or 64 you are now using (no 44's) or by a DC power source as shown in the Tortoise instructions. Yes you can also control them from AC, but the wiring is not generally for beginners.So, if you are using a DS-64, the 64 can be connected to track power, and the Tortoise connected to the 64. The 64 also allows you to attach push buttons to it to control the Tortoise. So now you can control the turnouts from the DCC unit, or the push buttons. You can also add more push buttons in parallel to operate the same turnout from different places.To get the most out of all this, you need to actually read the instruction manual several times, and not just use the quick method of 'looking it over'. You are now using a very sophisticated electronic device and there are specific instructions for its use.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
I see what you mean Elmer. The instructions are 20 pages long.
gandydancer19To get the most out of all this, you need to actually read the instruction manual several times, and not just use the quick method of 'looking it over'. You are now using a very sophisticated electronic device and there are specific instructions for its use.
Elmer,
While I'm a firm believer in RTFM, you make it sound harder than it really is.
To set up the DS64 to control four Tortii, there are exactly four simple steps. To paraphrase from the manual:
1) Connect (DCC) track power to the TRKA and TRKB inputs. 2) Press and hold the OPS button for about 3 seconds until the red and green LED's blink alternately. 3) Send a (closed or normal, depending on your DCC system) switch command to turnout address 1. 4) Press and hold the OPS button until the red LED stops blinking.
I have four DS64's currently installed on my layout, and another two programmed and waiting for my track-laying to catch up. I have about 16 routes set up in the four that are installed, and several more routes in the others, and I'm eventually going to have local pushbutton control as well.
It's been easy to set all this up, because the DS64's are very versatile and easy to program. That's why they have a 20-page manual, because they can do so much, not because they're difficult to work with.
Thanks guys for all the input.
It looks like I should trash the DS44 and use the DS64 if I want to control from two places. I originally thought it would be great to be able to throw a turnout from the Zephry and not have to walk (a duckunder is involved here!) over to the local switch toggle, but now I see that if I leave it on the DCC only, then when i want to throw the turnout when I am near the turnout I, would have to walk back ( the same duckunder is involved again!) to the Zephyr to do it. As the saying goes' six of one or half a dozen of the other', it is all the same. I may just go back to using the local toggles to operate the turnouts for now; there are really only 4 turnouts that I am concerned with having control of on DCC as well. Maybe when I upgrade to a wireless handheld throttle I will make the switch. I guess I knew it was too good to be true if it was this easy.
farrellaa Thanks guys for all the input. It looks like I should trash the DS44 and use the DS64 if I want to control from two places. I originally thought it would be great to be able to throw a turnout from the Zephry and not have to walk (a duckunder is involved here!) over to the local switch toggle, but now I see that if I leave it on the DCC only, then when i want to throw the turnout when I am near the turnout I, would have to walk back ( the same duckunder is involved again!) to the Zephyr to do it. As the saying goes' six of one or half a dozen of the other', it is all the same. I may just go back to using the local toggles to operate the turnouts for now; there are really only 4 turnouts that I am concerned with having control of on DCC as well. Maybe when I upgrade to a wireless handheld throttle I will make the switch. I guess I knew it was too good to be true if it was this easy. Bob
I've got 8 DS64s installed and use pushuttons on the control panel for some of the turnouts. Others are DCC only. Some other advantags of the DS64s are you can use routs and cascaded routes for complicated yard switching. As an example, I have a yard with 5 main tracks and 4 alternate tracks. I set a route number for each of the 9 tracks. Then I can hit the route numebr on the throttle or push the corresponding pushbutton and it will set all of the turnouts correctly. No more setting them one-by-one. The DS64 can also be used for corssing flashers and other neat uses.
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
As a newbie, I was curious whether he could add a ds64 for inputs and use those inputs, (or the throttle), to control the ds44 if it can be used that way (and I am just starting to learn dcc without even have one yet).I just thought that he shouldn't have to "trash" his ds44.
I don't know yet how dcc takes inputs and creates actions, or how the Zephyr controls the ds44, but I'll get there.
Welcome aboard.
The DS-44 only works with slow motion machines. The DS-64 can work with slow motion or snap type machines.
Either one gets it's switch commands from a command station like the Zephyr. The DS-44 gets the commands through the track. The DS-64 can get it's commands through the track or through Loconet.
The DS-64 can do cascade routes and can use both a button and the command station. The DS-44 cannot. Loconet is required for one DS to communicate with another.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Thanks for your reply, Phoebe Vet.
I understand the slo-mo limitation of the 44s, but the thought that came to mind was as follows (without knowing the capabilities or functions in the dcc system):
1. If I had tortii controlled by 44s through a command station, could I add two momentary switches as inputs to a 64 (I think it has inputs, as well as controlling more switch machines) to send a request to the command station to throw the turnout, one switch contact for each direction?
2. Can a 64 be setup with switch machines and local push buttons for control either locally or through the command station?
I may be thinking of the wrong parts (I've looked at too many to keep track, no pun intended, in my mind). I am probably going to get a Zephyr today, and will be experimenting with it. I will probably also end up with a pr3 soon so I can use a withrottle with my iPad, as well as track programming on the pc.
If you have enough money, you can do just about anything with dcc. I just don't see how I can afford much more.
You indeed could conntect buttons or toggles to another input device and have it control the DS-44 outputs. Witha computer int he middle using somethign liek JMRI, you can actually use this as a way to make a dispatcher panel where the DS cna grant local contorl access to a switch crew to work an area, and then turn it off so no one can 'ceat' and make a move withotu waiting for authorization. A simple startup or shutdown script could enable or disable all local controsl so you could operate alone with just the puchbuttons (I find operating turnouts from the trottle to be cumbersome at best, with NY system). For a non-computer alternative, the DS-64 woudl work, but if all you need are the input conections (since the DS-44's are already in place to operate the Tortoises), there are less expensive (per input) options from Team Digital and CML that can work without a computer.
Stationary decoders from CVP have a capability to enable/disable local control buttons, but not all systems can access the programmign required to do this on the fly. Tam Valley's newest servo controller is a Loconet device that can turn the local buttons on and off with a switch command. Since I gae uo Tortoises as too expensive these dyas, in favor of servo motors, these are high on my list for my future larger layout. I use the Tam Valley Singlet deivces on my current layout, and while I am setting an address for each, 99.9%of the time I simply operate them from the fascia buttons. The branch I model was TT&TO operation, no CTC or anything fancy like that.
Randy is probably the most knowledgeable Digitrax person in here. Maybe he can help you.
farrellaa Thanks guys for all the input. I originally thought it would be great to be able to throw a turnout from the Zephry and not have to walk (a duckunder is involved here!) over to the local switch toggle, but now I see that if I leave it on the DCC only, then when i want to throw the turnout when I am near the turnout I, would have to walk back ( the same duckunder is involved again!) to the Zephyr to do it.
I originally thought it would be great to be able to throw a turnout from the Zephry and not have to walk (a duckunder is involved here!) over to the local switch toggle, but now I see that if I leave it on the DCC only, then when i want to throw the turnout when I am near the turnout I, would have to walk back ( the same duckunder is involved again!) to the Zephyr to do it.
If you use a DPDT toggle switch to control the turnout, you can wire a second DPDT toggle switch from another location so that you don't have to duck under the layout to reach the main DPDT switch for that turnout.
Rich
Alton Junction
Being an NCE user, I opted for Switch-8 controllers for most of my Tortoises. My main and yard panels have Mini-Panels which allow either pushbutton or momentary toggle control. Both the Powerhouse Pro and Mini-Panel have macro memories; my yard is currently set up for automatic route selection using the Pro memory. As I recall, Mini-Panels can handle 30 switch closures, but NCE is supposed to have a larger Panel available RSN. I found the programming aspects easier than I expected, and have had no problems with glitches. All track power is isolated by PSX breakers, so no problem with the DCC being disabled by a derailment.
Hal
Edit: Removed irrelevant post.
I got an email with your reply, and I almost commented on it right away.
Actually, the Team Digital SRC16 product may be right on. I myself am glad to see what is available, although this thread is 2 years old, and the author has probably gone on to a career as a nuclear physicist.
As this hobby has progresses technically, more and more options and capabilities become possible, and sharing ideas and practices can only help foster interest. As a newbie in dcc, I am just starting to scratch the surface and truly appreciate the time and effort people put into sharing and educating.
So, thanks for posting even what you ended up thinking was irrevelant. It seems to me however, that your post does address the thead title: "DCC Control of Turnouts".
Hmm, I guess I don't really know how these forums work.
I removed my post as "irrelevant" because I thought that after having read the later posts, I had somehow replied to the original poster (and their 2-year-old post). So I'm not sure how you ended up with an email.
But regardless, I'm glad you got some useful information!
Hey guys, I am the original poster and did retire from a nuclear related career. I still have the DS44 and haven't gone on to use some of the suggestions even though they are probably what I will do when I get to it. I am currentlly ripping up about 10-12 feet of curved track/roadbed/turnout to fix a problem I should have fixed a year ago. My layout is 18 x 22 feet and I am 71 years old; a lot of work for one man who just last year went to DCC with over 50 engines. I haven't converted all of them yet but there is still tomorrow (??). Just want to update this thread and to again thank all that contributed.
-Bob
Just a little more info the DS 64 will also operate 8 tortoise machines if you wire them right. They will throw both switches if you are using a passing siding. Jim.
Stevert, when I replied (actually raised a question as a reply) previously, I checked off the "Email me replies to the post" box below. So I got an email each time there was another post in this thread.
Bob, glad to hear about your continuing involvement in model railroading. I am learning more about DCC all the time (got a Zephyr Monday, got a DS64 in the mail the other day) and am working on building my first layout after about 30 years of lurking. My 7 (or so) locos are all DC now, and sing when placed on DCC trackage (controlled as loco # 00, one at a time). I am seriously considering Tsunami 828039 for my old Athearn blue-box SD-24, but won't need it until I actually have a layout (and who knows how long that will take...).
I changed my Avatar to a representation of my track plan: it's a duckunder twice-around with staging/fiddle yards on one long side. When asked opinions, fellow members of the Tri-state Model Railroad Club (Mineral Bluff, GA) asked "A duckunder? How old are you?" And "Don't bother with twin-coil; it's a false economy of buy cheaper then spend beaucoup time adjusting/correcting the operation. Just start with Tortii now."
Thanks to all who have helped me (and others) by sharing experiences, thoughts and practices.
DS64 has an advantage over the switch-it (to me). Ds64 requires no DCC power connection to operate on a Digitrax loconet system. Connect auxiliary power in one of several ways listed in the manual and use only a loconet cable for commands from a throttle. Local push-buttons can also be installed for control. I use this on all of my NTRAK modules for turnout control. As long as auxiliary power is on the push-buttons will work even when the DCC command station is turned off.
Martin Myers
At least in a Loconet system - this makes much more sense. Even if you put local pushbuttons ont he DS64, it reports the switch state over Loconet, so it shows up on throttles and on control panels in JMRI. This remains the single biggest advantage Loconet has over the other control buses.