Has anyone here installed a decoder in a DC Proto 2000 H10-44? I'm looking for a 9-pin motor decoder recommendation. I particularly want one with very good low-speed response. Thanks for the help.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
The older ones? They don;t have a plug, it's a hardwire job. I use TCS in most of my locos. There is an install pictured on their web site: http://www.tcsdcc.com/Customer_Content/Installation_Pictures/HO_Scale/Walthers/H10-44/Walthers%20HO%20Scale%20H10-44.htm
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Randy,
Whatever one that Walthers first released a couple of years ago. My Proto 2000 H10-44 comes with two circuit boards: A larger one (that containers the 8-pin pad and connection tabs) and a smaller one (that has the 9-pin socket soldered to it).
The instructions that come with the locomotive state that the smaller board can be removed and set aside if using a 9-pin decoder, as follows:
I'm assuming there are 9-pin decoders with sockets instead of plugs?
What's it actually look like? The decoder normally has the socket, which actually has the pins, the plug is the other end, like the plug on the wires from the tender of a BLI loco. I've never heard of a decoder that has the female plug on it, and any harnesses I have ever seen are either the female end to wires for hard wiring or the female end to various forms of the 8 pin plug to plug into the 8 pin sockets. Athearn RTR ias the female plug on a short bit of wire. On those I use the TCS T1A, it coems with no wires at all, and is a buck cheaper than the one with plain wires. If this loco has some other oddball arrangement I'd be inclined to ditch it all and hard wire a decoder, T1 if it fits or if the space is too tight, an MC2 (MC2 has a 7 pin connector instead of 9, so you can still pop out the decoder and replace it if needed). I'm in the middle of installing an MC2 in my P2K S-1 (repalcement orange wire and all). I just put one in my 44-tonner and it worked great.
The smaller PC board is ~0.71 x 1.18 x 0.19". The 9-pin socket is on one end, with a pair of diodes, a capacitor, and a resistor on the other end.
I just checked TCS's web site and their T1 decoder comes with a 9-pin socket. From the picture it should just plug right onto the 9-pin plug. I'll double-check the dimensions though to see if it will fit in the same space as the discarded board.
Good news. I discovered that I actually had a spare T1 decoder. (It was in an Athearn RS3 that was sitting in a drawer.) So, I removed the T1 from the RS3, connected it to the 9-pin plug in the H10-14, and It works just fine. Although the decoder is a bit noisy, the low-speed response is very good.
Randy, are the T1s generally "non-silent" decoders? I'll see if I can't post a picture of the inside of the H10-44 for you later tonight, as well as the small board that I was describing to you earlier.
BTW: I e-mailed Tony's Trains last night to ask them for their decoder recommendation for the H10-44. Norm Stenzel responded back later today and suggested the T1.
Tom.
All the TCS decoders I have and installed have been silent. If it an older one without BEMF you may have Dither kicked up too high. If it is an X series then it is a silent decoder but kicking up dither in CV56 and 57 will make it noisy. Do a reset and try it again.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
WHat Pete said. Even before they added BEMF, they were silent drive decoders. You may have BEMF turned off it's a BEMF decoder - I noticed the definitions in DecoderPro are NOT correct for the X series decoders - there is no option for BEMF and if you set the lights for Dim WHen Stopped and/or Opposite Dim it puts 16 or 48 in CV61, which is the dim option but you need to add 1 for BEMF to be on. It also fails to set the white and yellow wires for Rule 17 so they lights don;t actually dim. These settings are shown int he TCS instructions, so whoever write the definitions included with JMRI 2.10 missed that.
You can tell by the version number in CV7 which feature set it has, but I don't remember off the top of my head what the cutoff is for the BEMF versions. It might be listed on the TCS web site. Pretty sure the new ones I just installed are version 50.
Pete & Randy,
I couldn't find my T1 decoder manual. So I downloaded one from the TCS web site last nighht and checked the decoder on the programming track. BEMF was indeed on - i.e. CV 61 was set to 1. I discovered that when I turned BEMF off by changing the value of V61 to "0", dithering (which comes on automatically when BEMF is turned off) was noticeably quieter. (I couldn't detect any sort of hum whatsoever.)
I also performed a factory reset (CV8=2). When I readdressed the decoder, I found out that the decoder # was "047". (Randy, I'm assuming that is what you were trying to get at with the CV7 suggestion above.)
Although this decoder isn't that noisy, I do prefer the silent drives. I may try playing around with the dithering to see what I can get it to do. I will say though that that T1 decoder really makes the H10-44 crawl at speed step 001. (I'm guessing maybe a railroad tie every 8-10 seconds?)
Interesting that the BEMF makes it hum. So far mine have all been fine, but I can see where that would be annoying. That's probably the only drawback of the TCS BEMF - it's not adjustable other than to set the speed step at which it cuts out. WHich in iteself is a nice feature not many others have - you can get BEMF to creep at startup and so you can couple smoothly, but not have cruise control at road speed. There's also another option to have BEMF turned on and off with a function.
Oh wait - does the loco have some small capacitors parallel with the motor like most Bachmanns? If so - cut them off, THIS is what is causing the problem.
Another wierdness I noted with my 44-tonner - before installing a decoder I tested it on address 00 and it ran fine (once I removed the capacitors - it was a dead short as soon as I turned up the throttle with them in place). I installed the decoder, tested it on the program track where Ihad no problem configuring it - but when I put it on the main it stated shorting and tripping my PM42. Eventuraly it wouldn't move at all. At first I feared I blew my first decoder, but when I put it back on the program track I could read it all and change CVs. This is where I found out the settings in JMRI aren;t correct and BEMF was off. That still didn't fix it on the main, it would stutter and trip the PM42. Very odd as it ran fine without a decoder so I don't think it had dirty wheels or pickups. I pulled up another loco and verified everythign ran ok, so I coupled up the second loco and pushed and pulled the 44 tonner across the layout (not mu's, one on each knob) and after a couple of trips, complete with stopping and shorting, it finally started runnign fine. Now it runs great, creeping along without the lights flickerign or anything - it's like the BEMF needed some time to 'learn' the loco. The TCS BEMF is self-adjusting, exactly how it works or what that exactly means they don;t say. But I had no issues with the GP-7 or S-1 or RS-3. They all ran fine right after installing the decoder.
rrinker Interesting that the BEMF makes it hum. So far mine have all been fine, but I can see where that would be annoying. That's probably the only drawback of the TCS BEMF - it's not adjustable other than to set the speed step at which it cuts out. WHich in iteself is a nice feature not many others have - you can get BEMF to creep at startup and so you can couple smoothly, but not have cruise control at road speed. There's also another option to have BEMF turned on and off with a function. Oh wait - does the loco have some small capacitors parallel with the motor like most Bachmanns? If so - cut them off, THIS is what is causing the problem.
I'll check when I get home tonight, Randy. Would these caps be on the main (larger) PC board or off it? IIRC, I got this same hum when I was using it in the Athearn RS-3.
Could be on the board or directly ont he motor - with Bachmann each loco is different and I don't doubt that Walthers would do things differently as well. What you are looking for are small blobs that if you trace the leads are parallel with the motor.
Interesting your Athearn RS-3 does the same thing. Maybe we have different standards on what constitutes objectionable noise. I think my RS-3 is fine, not as quiet as my Stewarts but nothing is as quiet as those Canon motor switchers. It could be the BEMF is too strong and trying to make the motor turn slower than it really can, if it more or less just hums at step 1 and doesn;t really move, perhaps setting CV2 to 2 instead of 1 would help (the TCS decoders default it to 1 - and you cna;t set it to 0, it seems).
rrinkerCould be on the board or directly ont he motor - with Bachmann each loco is different and I don't doubt that Walthers would do things differently as well. What you are looking for are small blobs that if you trace the leads are parallel with the motor.
So, are we talking thru-hole caps or surface mount caps on the board?
Could be either, I suppose. Post a picture of the board and the insides of the loco, should be able to see from that.
Randy, I'll try and get that up sometime tonight. Thanks.
As you requested, here are three pics of the H10-44 PC board:
There are three caps total: The one you see above labeled "C1" and one on each end of the board. Is "C1" the one you were referring to, Randy? Everything is surface mounted so there are no other components that are off the board.
Hope that sheds some light...
C1 is the one I was referring to, yup, it's directly across the traces that go to the motor connectors. Those two things that look shrink wrapped next to the motor termianls are inductors, those are in series with the motor,. The whole thing is a lot like Bachmann's design, pair of inductirs in series with the motor leads and a capacitor in parallel. Usually the inductors are ok, to remove them you'd have to replace them with jumper wires. But C1 - get rid of it. It should run a lot better with that gone. The 2 parts work to supress RF emissions so the loco doesn;t interfere with your radio or TV. It also damps out the BEMF from the motor so the decoder can;t work properly, and it also alters the waveform of the high frequency drive. This may be partly why Bachmann uses such terrible decoders int eh DCC On-board models - the low frequency from a non silent drive decoder isn't as affected by the LC (inductance/capacitance) circuit formed by the inductors and capacitor.
Thanks, Randy. I'll try that and let you know how it responds.
I also discovered how to apply the Rule 17 lighting effect. It took me a few tries to figure it out. However, once I learned to set CV49 & CV50 individually BEFORE changing CV61 to the desired value, now the headlights "dim when stopped" and the "opposite light is dimmed" when changing directions. Very cool!
It seems like you can do it in any order - in fact once I figured out what DecoderPro left out, I just changed CV49 and 50 in ops mode, and as soon as I entered the value for Rule 17 dimmignt he light that had been on full bright dimmed (since the loco wasn't moving). CV61 was already set for opposite dim/dim when stopped.
Yea, I did the changes in OPS mode, too. Pretty convenient. I'll see about removing that capacitor tonight...
I removed capacitor "C1" from the board...and it made no difference in the hum or performance.
Interesting,. My Proto Geep has a slight hum at speed step 1 but it goes away if I go any faster. And it's definitely not obnoxious, I only really hear it if I am right up next tot he loco. A little stiffenign of the shell and I think it would totally disappear.
The motor hum is constant but drops in pitch slightly around speed step 020. It's hardly unbearable. I can easily live with it.