Does anybody know of a service that wil, for a fee, take a drawing of a circuit board and produce a small numbr of PCBs?
Note that I said "drawing of a circuit". THere are many companies that will provide the service I described, but ONLY if you submit the circuit board design in a cimplicated electrical engineering format that requries both expensive software and a long and steep learning curve - I'm talking about a compnay or individual who can work from a 1:1 image of the completed board.
Thanks for any sauggestions,
Steamnut
I dount any of the services will take a hand-drawn schematic and make a board. You might find someone who will take your drawing and copy it into the programs used by the various services. ExpressPCB offers the software for free. I could probably take your drawign and put it into the ExpressPCB program.
Edit: another way to do this is 'draw' it on photo paper and make them youself - also ther eare options that work with laser printers so if you cna scan your drawing and print it you can make a master.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
For a small number of boards, why not use perfboard instead of etching PCBs. Randy Rinker has mentioned one company that has free circuit design software that you can download and create a master schematic. You then upload the resulting pattern to them and they produce the boards. Rather expensive for small runs, though.
It is but really isn't (expensive). Especially if you are building a small circuit - their flat rate prive of $55 for 3 boards is for a board of s specific size - however nothign says tat if your circuit is simple and small you can't duplicate it 2 or 4 or more times - as many fit in that standard size. So for somethign small and simply, you might get 3 boards but 12 actual circuits - about $3 each, not so bad.
No one is really 'chepa' when it comes to production - they usually get you ont he setup fees. If you look at their production prices you can see it's $150 or more plus a per board cost. Per board isn;t horribly expensive - it's the setup. The nice thing is that you cna repeat production without paying the setup fee again.
Actually if I needed pc boards I'd call my friend - he was actually crazy enough to buy the equipment for his own use. I'm not sure if the free software can produce a more standard Gerber file but if it can, I could send it to him and he'd run me boards for the cost of materials.
Thanks for your comments. I wasn't sufficiently clear. The board is not hand-drawn, it is a printed PDF that was professionally done.
First of all, Randy, you are correct based on my own on-line research - the cost of having it done "right" using professional equipment and processes is not much more than the cost of setting myself up with all the stuff one needs to get in order to try to produce home-etched boards with uncertain results.
Secondly, I'd welcome a link to the site that has software for creating a Gerber file. I've tried a couple of such sites and while I consider myself both quite computer-literate and also a fairly advanced hobbyist in terms of electronics (I've assembled a number of fairly complex kits, designed simple circuits for hobby RR use, designed and build simple speaker crossovers, etc.), I just couldn't get these "free" programs to work.
Lastly, I've got loads of stuff under my layout that uses perfboard, but this circuit is a bit complicated for using perfboard. In my experience, troubleshooting a perfboard project of any complexity is extremely difficult. More to the point, I want to do maybe four to six of these so a PCB is really the way to go if possible.
Thank you again for your comments and if you have any further input after my own replies I would welcome them.
Thank you for your input and please see my comments above.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
I believe Eagle, which is available in a free version, can do some basic board layout stuff. This is a general electronic CAD program vs the specific free program you get from ExpressPCB. I doubt any free program will handle complex multilayer boards - some of that software makes AutoCAD look cheap.
Vail and Southwestern RRI'd never done the research on this before! Now and then I have thoughts... this service could really be handy!
Indeed - but you do have to have some basic knowledge to create workable schematics and board layouts. For a simple circuit, say a basic 555 timer crossing flasher, it's almost automatic, and the ExpressPCB software does a decent job of warning you about unworkable layouts. And it's much like using a track plannign CAD program - you may be great at hand drawing a schematic for a working circuit, but just not make that mental connection to the computer-based representation of the exact same thing. I say the same thing about track CAD programs - if you aren't one who can make those connections it doesn't mean you are less intelligent or anything, everyone is wired a bit different. I tend to have the 'feel' for CAD representations of things - but I can't do scenery for anything. Some of you who can't quite grasp CAD concepts probably run rings around me when it comes to scenery.
This is a DC throttle circuit. Thankfully not multilayered, just one IC.
I really appreciate the responses. To net it out, I should check out Eagle and ExpressPCB because there is no known service that will take even a professionally PDF and turn it into finished PCB boards. (Pretty much as I feared.) And furthermore, if these free programs won't generate something called Gerber files, no point fiddling with them.
Hornblower
I don't think RS sells that stuff anymore, but you CAN get it from various electronic suppliers like Mouser. The only issue is with the etchant, it will permanently stain nearly anything. Use a glass dish and wear gloves.
rrinker I don't think RS sells that stuff anymore, but you CAN get it from various electronic suppliers like Mouser. The only issue is with the etchant, it will permanently stain nearly anything. Use a glass dish and wear gloves. --Randy
They still sell it.
http://www.radioshack.com/search/index.jsp?kwCatId=&kw=etchant&origkw=etchant&sr=1
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
No, they used to sell complete kits which came with a couple of blank boards, etchant, a small tray, and a resist pen. They might have it online but none of the stores around here have that kind of stuff anymore. All they have these days is cell phones and a drawer of parts that cost 10x what they do from Mouser. Back in the day, you could get nearly anything at Radio Shack - I used to just browse the walls of parts to get ideas for projects.
steamnut The board is not hand-drawn, it is a printed PDF that was professionally done.
The board is not hand-drawn, it is a printed PDF that was professionally done.
That makes it easy!
Lots of places have instructions, and/or sell "transfer-sheet"-type products that you print on a laser printer and iron onto a blank PCB, then etch. As an example, here's one such product.
Google is your friend. Do a search, you'll find lots more.
I am working as a PCB designer for a contract electronics assembly company. Bottom line is it's pretty expensive for both the design and assembly of circuit boards. Tooling up for making bare copper boards can run a few hundred $, before a board house starts drilling, cutting, etching.
There's a book "Practical Electronic Projects for Model Railroaders" c1974 from Kalmbach. Technology is pretty outdated, you can't even find the components any more. Anyway, first chapter includes techniques of making your own PCB. One method is grinding a copper-plated board (maybe from RS) with your pattern. Another uses self-adhesive pads and conductors; I haven't seen these anywhere. The chapter goes into some detail on etching your own PCB. I wouldn't advise someone to take on this - imagine what the etchant can do around your home if it can dissolve copper.
RS has a few PCBs that are pre-drilled with pads and conductors. You could fit various components and jumper wires into the hole pattern and solder your own circuit easily enough.
Multipurpose PCB
rrinker No, they used to sell complete kits which came with a couple of blank boards, etchant, a small tray, and a resist pen. They might have it online but none of the stores around here have that kind of stuff anymore. All they have these days is cell phones and a drawer of parts that cost 10x what they do from Mouser. Back in the day, you could get nearly anything at Radio Shack - I used to just browse the walls of parts to get ideas for projects. --Randy
I agree that they have thinned their stock but the etchant is only available in stores, not online. They still stock circuit boards in the stores:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102495
As you point out, there was a time where they had a much greater selection.
I went to a local electronics place and found unpopulated PC boards. They are designed to mount 1 or 2 ICs, and then a few other components. You have to do the layout yourself, but if the circuit is nothing more than an IC, a few jumpers and a couple of resistors, it's easy enough. The metal traces on the back are easy to see, so simple circuits are a piece of cake.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
steamnutDoes anybody know of a service that wil, for a fee, take a drawing of a circuit board and produce a small numbr of PCBs? Note that I said "drawing of a circuit". THere are many companies that will provide the service I described, but ONLY if you submit the circuit board design in a cimplicated electrical engineering format that requries both expensive software and a long and steep learning curve - I'm talking about a compnay or individual who can work from a 1:1 image of the completed board. Thanks for any sauggestions, Steamnut
Hello Steamnut-
There is a short answer, a couple of longer answers and an even longer answer to your question--
The shortest answer is "Yes", there are services that will do what you want, but the more you have them do, the more it will cost.
There are companies that will even start with a raw, generic *idea* and work it up into a fully-realized product, provided its viable of course, and for a price. Another thing that may possibly be a factor is that if this is going to be a commercial product (even if you only think maybe someday you might market it), you will probably also have to have it tested for various types of compliance and safety prior to any potential sale-- with some exceptions and caveats-- at the very least, you will not be able to sell it as a "Class 'A' Consumer Device" without the testing. Depending on what it is, you might get away with selling it as a "Class 'B' Commercial Device" with minimal testing, or else with little or no testing if it can be classified as an "OEM Embedded Device" (that may not be the correct name for the class) meaning it would be completely incorporated and used as a sub-component of a larger "product". And there are variations to all of the above rules and classifications based on how it will ultimately be used, sold, incorporated, its voltage/power requirements, whether it is line-powered or battery-powered (wall-warts don't count!), posesses hazardous materials, can produce an electric shock-- and the list goes on extensively.
If its for your own use-- nevermind, you're free to shock the living daylights out of yourself if you wish but you can't annoy the neighbor's TV reception... (Please note that those 'Daylights' will probably not be delivered in Southern Pacific livery... )
If you already have the circuit-- or even better, the "1:1 image of the completed board", then you're in a much better situation. The answer is definitely "YES". There may be some minor caveats-- and possibly still some "extra charges" but not a lot more than what it would have cost had you given them a "gerber plot" in electronic form (the generally-accepted industry interchange format for electronic PCB's).
Be aware however, that transcription fees aside, most "prototype houses" *WILL* charge a minimum fee for setup which can best be recovered across a larger run of boards-- typically anywhere from fifty to a couple hundred to as many as a thousand, depending on the particular company you're dealing with. They will also likely have minimum and maximum size circuit-board dimensions-- that they're comfortable working with-- 6 x 9 inches, for example, or 6 x 12 inches are typical sizes. Some can do more, some can't. Some *will* do more if you pay them more.
Also its useful to note that they probably have a "sweet spot" board dimension size-- in which they will give you the best deal since it matches their general setup and production metrics (though that's not likely to be a big factor). However, if you can get a sense of what their "favorite" board sizes are, you can arrange for *multiple* copies of your circuit board to be fitted into one "standard" size that they run. You will incur a small extra charge for cutting them apart-- different shops have different rates and might charge a flat fee for everything or else a tiny per-cut fee. Usually its not a big deal compared to the overall size of the order.
Most houses will do "one-offs" if you request it, for a fee of course. The "one-off" will likely be in reality a "two-off" since they generally will do two anyway for "safety" and give you both pieces in any case unless one is really screwed-up somehow.
The biggest "extra" charge that most people don't expect when ordering boards is the drill-hole size charges. You will (typically) get charged *every time* their CTC machine has to change "tools" (drill bits and/or router bits, if they're being used). Also many companies will charge an additional "per-hole" charge though its usually not a lot.
The number of "runs" (traces) on the board is rarely a factor unless you're dealing with a board shop that physically "routes out" the board as opposed to doing the more usual photo-mask / copper etch method.
Another thing you will likely get charged for are "plated through holes", meaning the holes that get drilled for components and such-- if they are "plated-through" (i.e., have copper and tin/lead [solder] re-flowed into them), they will probably cost a little extra per-hole.
You *might* get charged for a "paste-up" if they have to do any conversion or touch-up work on your original artwork. This could even be if the original artwork is too-thin, or copied from a magazine and the backside image/text "bleeds through".
And you might want some niceties afterwards such as a "Component Mask" and/or a "Solder Mask", and/or a "Ruggedizing Dip" (although you don't generally "ruggedize" the board until after you've stuffed the components). And they probably offer or work in conjunction with a "board stuffing" service that can stuff the components in your boards-- for a fee of course. But it saves you from having to do it. And if you can offer a "Spice" diagram, or other signal test layout, they can do a "bed of nails" test, or JTAG testing (if your parts support it), etc. or even follow-on failure diagnostics / remedial repair-- again for a price.
There are full-service shops and there are essentially do-it-yourself shops. I have personally used a number but have pared it down to one only-- I like these guys, they do a good job and give good service-- "Canadian Circuits" (yes, they're in Canada, eh)
Here's their web site: http://www.canadiancircuits.com/
If you call, ask to speak to Eric, he probably thinks I owe him a sale :-)
(Disclaimer, I don't work for the company or have any interest in it, I just like 'em. They've always done good work for me)
John
steamnutSecondly, I'd welcome a link to the site that has software for creating a Gerber file.
Canadian Circuits used to have freeware software for making gerber plots (http://www.canadiancircuits.com/). I haven't looked there in a long while (years) so it may not be there any more or else not relevant. But I just did a google search for "gerber plot (freeware OR shareware)" and there were a number of offerings that came up. I think there is some free (open source) stuff you can get and run for Linux too-- my recollection is that there is a program called "pcb" or something similar for Linux that has all the various sortware accessories you'd want including routers, schematic capture, plotting, etc.
There's also EaglePCB which I've only used their demo version many moons ago-- it came with some similar accessories.
I eventually standardized on ProCAD, which I still use to this day, albeit on a very old and antiquated computer! :-)
rrinkerIndeed - but you do have to have some basic knowledge to create workable schematics and board layouts.
Yes, that of course is the rub. Also be aware that all electronic components come pre-loaded from the factory with "magic blue smoke". Once you do something to let the "magic blue smoke" escape, the device will no longer function. And to make it interesting, some mfgr's include an extra "go-bang" feature which can really increase your excitement and thrill level, especially as you're trying out the circuit for the first time or experiencing the "magic blue smoke". Its amazing what they can cram into electronic circuits these days.
One serious warning and piece of advice-- whatever it is you're tinkering with-- don't let it stand between you and the door (or the floor, whichever's closer) when you power it on for the first time.
And if you don't think you're suitably experienced or your skills aren't up to the task-- leave it for the professionals, they can screw it up a lot better than you can...
MicroMark also sells a kit.
rrinkerNo, they used to sell complete kits which came with a couple of blank boards, etchant, a small tray, and a resist pen. They might have it online but none of the stores around here have that kind of stuff anymore. All they have these days is cell phones and a drawer of parts that cost 10x what they do from Mouser. Back in the day, you could get nearly anything at Radio Shack - I used to just browse the walls of parts to get ideas for projects. --Randy
Toss the Sharpie... er, I mean "high-cost etch-resist pen" and use a laser printer or else a copying machine to produce your board. Print it out backwards (copy it if you must to get it transfered to toner) and the literally "iron" it onto your board-- use a moderate heat-- not low, not the highest, something above the middle though and preferably put a buffering surface between it-- I just use a couple sheets of paper, works fine-- BUT be aware that you can get high-temperature transparency sheets that are perfect for this procedure. They cost a little extra-- but sometimes they can be re-used if you clean them right.
hornblowerHey, that Press & Peel stuff would make circuit design and transfer to the PCB blank far easier. It reminds me that I still need to try making my own loco to tender PCB drawbars with all of the DCC connections on the drawbar (no exposed wires).
Warning: That press-n-peel stuff sucks for all but the simplest of boards. While your mileage may vary of course, my mileage was ZERO.
try pcb123 its a free design suite for pcb's fairly easy to use
go to jameco .com they do them for a fee
hope this helps
John,
Thank you for your informative reply. I will check out the copmany you mention.
BTW, this is strictly for my own use. In fact I am not the designer of the circuit so although I have explicit permission to use the designer's PDF to make and populate circuit boards for my own use, it would be a big no-no to sell. And the PDF is indeed a 1:1 image.
The circuit board is small and you are right - I could typically get two to four out of a single "standard" board size at the companies I've checked out (as I noted in my original post, there are a LOT of copmanies that will do prototyping (as they all seem to call it), but ONLY from a Gerber file).
Regards,
And thanks to the rest of you for your additional comments as well.