Ok after studing and thinking through what to do, i have decided that HO will be better for me. I really would have like to have a lionel layour, but do to room i really think that i will go with HO instead. With that said i want to know before i buy a set should i worry about dc or dcc. I really would like to hear the trains and from what i have read then i need to have a dcc. If this is the case please someone let me know what the best set would be. I am willing to spend around $200, if that helps out.
The other question would be what else do you think that i would need to get started?
Thanks and i have really enjoyed all of those on the forum that have helped me out.
Matt
You can find used DCC sets on Ebay for around that price. You don't have to get the latest and greatest - I started with a used Lenz set 02, then upgraded the base station and throttles later on.
Having said that, the earlier sets don't necessarily support all the functions you'll need for sound equipped locos - these can often have up to 28 functions that can be toggled.
The December issues of Model Railroader usually carry some form of article on looking for a DCC system - it might be worth checking these out.
The main other thing you need before you get started is an idea of where you want your layout go, and what you want to get out of it.
Hope this helps,
tbdanny
The Location: Forests of the Pacific Northwest, OregonThe Year: 1948The Scale: On30The Blog: http://bvlcorr.tumblr.com
Thanks for your idea. I just found on ebay a train set :
Is this worth while?
Its made by buccanin i think.
themattmanIts made by buccanin i think.
The name is BACHMANN. This set will have a basic DCC decoder installed in the locomotive and should also come with a Bachmann EZ Command DCC system, which will be a good starter set for you.
Many will have different opinion's to which is better. I was a DC hold out for some time. I have a good sizes bench with 75 feet plus main lines. I want to be able to run two trains on the same main. Did not want to do all the wiring need to do it with DC, so I finally made the DCC jump.
You don't have to go DCC to run sound engines, most today will run and make sound on DC.
The simple Bachmann E-Z Command in the set is a good little system. I ran a E-Z for 3 years and was very happy with it. I don't think the set comes with a sound engine, I could be wrong. Not all DCC engines have sound.
Good luck and read and ask questions.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
tbdannythe earlier sets don't necessarily support all the functions you'll need for sound equipped locos - these can often have up to 28 functions that can be toggled.
Ok so DCC has nothing to do with if a engine makes noise or not? Is that what you are saying? So maybe i really do not understand what DCC is. Could someone give me a short answer? Also would DC be fine to start with and them add DCC. After all can i find a DC set that has a engine that does what i am looking for.
DCC and DC are both ways of controlling the speed and direction of a locomotive. The key difference is that in DC, the motor & lights of the locomotive take their voltage (and thus, speed/brightness) directly from the track. In DCC, a digital signal is sent through the track to a decoder on the locomotive, which interprets the commands and adjusts the headlights and motor speed/direction accordingly. DCC also allows independent control of headlights and other functions - and this is where sound comes in. DC doesn't allow you to toggle non-automatic sounds easily without some sort of proprietary control box. However, I think MRC has just come out with a DC throttle that allows the user to access all sounds on sound-equipped models while running in DC mode. Sound isn't a requirement of DCC - sound is a natural progression of DCC.
Hope this helps.
There are sound systems that are meant to be under the layout, with speakers, and sound systems added to the engines. The former are almost always superior in sound....far superior. The small speakers inside the trains can't reproduce the deep bass sounds of diesel exhaust and steam engine chuffs. They sound a bit tinny, but some sounds are actually good. Bells, for example, and some horns/whistles if the sound files are the right ones.
In-engine sound can be enjoyed on both DC tracks and DCC tracks. It is just that you have more control, and can tune the motive behaviour of the engines better with DCC. But you can still get sounds from sound decoders built into DC-only engines. The Broadway Limited Blueline series are that way. You need extra controllers in many cases to get more than a few basic sounds out of the sound decoders in DC engines. DCC throttles allow you to access many more sounds.
DC vs. DCC.
In each case, all motors use DC current to turn them. It is just that the DCC engines get their current directly from the decoder...nowhere else. DC engines get their power directly from the rails via the metal wheels and wipers on the wheel backs or on metal axles. In DC, you wind a knob controlling the track voltage to make the engine go faster. A reversing button allows the engine to run in reverse, and that is on the voltage controller.
With DCC, you tell the decoder inside the engine that you want it to reverse the locomotive. It then manipulates DC pulses to the engine to make it turn over in the desired direction.
Some decoders are motive decoders only. They allow you to control directional lighting and some performance characteristics for the motor. That's it. Others do all that and also have a sound chip and amplifier circuitry. Wires run to a speaker close by. That is a sound decoder.
Either way, the trains run. To get two engines to run on the same tracks independently in DC is impossible, unless you resort to complicated circuits and control systems. In DC, what one engine must do due to the voltage configuration and amount, other engines must also do. In DCC, you have to address each engine (each decoder) and tell it to do something. The other decoders don't get 'spoken' to if you address one of them, so they do nothing. In that respect, DCC offers more simplicity to the user and more realism. You instruct Steamer 123 to accelerate to 30 scale mph, and it will. Steamer 456 right behind it on the same powered length of track won't begin to chase it as it would in DC, but will stay put, or you could even have it move off in the opposite direction simultaneously. Can't do that in DC.
-Crandell
DCC sounds complicated, but it is not, in fact.
The key difference between the two systems is, that DCC allows you to control your loco, whereas DC controls the flow of current to your track. If you plan to have a simple layout with only 1 engine running at a time, DC will suit you nicely. But if you plan to operate 2 or more trains simultaneously on one track, than DCC is your answer.
Aside from all the nice-to-have additions to DCC, it also helps you to minimize your wiring.
themattmanAfter all can i find a DC set that has a engine that does what i am looking for
If I were in your shoes I would do just that. If you have found a DC train set that does what you want it to do, then go for it, enjoy it, and have some fun. As your interest and knowledge grows and you decide if and when you want to expand beyond the basic set, then start to think about DCC.
DCC is not essential to run sound locos. DCC would give you a bit more control over a sound loco, but it is not a requirement to enjoy a sound loco. There are control boxes that you can use in DC that provide access to many of the sounds. Here is a link to an example from BLI http://www.broadway-limited.com/bli-1011dcmasteranalogcontrolmodule.aspx
The point at which I think you should make a decision to go to DCC is when your hobby expands. If you move beyond the simple loop to a more complex layout plan, then this is the time to consider the switch. It is not hard to add DCC later. By then, you will have had an opportunity to ask questions and research and really understand what DDC can do, and if it makes sense for your layout.
I ran DC for at least the first year of my layout, and only after gaining a much greater knowledge and understanding did I make the switch to DCC. It was always my intent to do it, so I made sure that I did all my wiring with DCC in mind. I had a whole bunch of fun running DC and then a bunch more when I made the switch.
Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
As far as the Lionel O vs. HO scale issue, keep in mind that there might not be that much difference. Yes HO trains are "Half O" so only about half as big as the Lionel trains, but three-rail O trains are made to go around very sharp curves. Your HO trainset you mentioned probably has 18" radius curved track (if it comes with track). In HO that is a bare minimum, and many engines and cars won't take those sharp curves or won't look good going around the curves. If you want to (eventually) use large steam engines, big six-axle diesels, and full-scale passenger cars, in HO you'll eventually want a layout with 30"R curves - or larger. That's getting into the 54" to 72" dia. curves that the largest O three-rail engines and cars require.
Anyway...Bachmann stuff (Spectrum anyway) is good, but their DCC decoders are on the cheap end. Many folks who buy "DCC equipped" Bachmann engines end up swapping the decoders out for better ones down the road. For $200 you could get a good DCC starter system from Digitrax (Zephyr) or MRC. I found when I went to DCC the Zephyr was a good fit for me. It's design is much like a conventional powerpack / transformer so was an easy transition. But several companies make good starter systems that you can add on to down the road.
Cutting to the bare bones both DC and DCC gets the basic job done running trains.
Now one doesn't need DCC to enjoy the lights,bells etc of sound equipped locomotives.One can use a Atlas Quantum Engineer Controller.
http://www.firsthobby.com/store1/Product.asp?ProductID=ATL325&SN=2009120408163072
Another side of DCC is the added price of a decoder for locomotives that doesn't come DCC equipped.Decoders range in price from $19.99 to $39.95.Extra controlers ranges in price as well-if they are needed.
DCC/DC is more of a personal choice then anything and is one of those nice things that isn't really needed to enjoy the hobby and I will add as food for thought if you're going to run one locomotive at a time then I suggest rethinking the cost of DCC vs.the true need..
IF my ISLs was more then a one horse operation I would go basic DCC and use a Bachmann E-Z Command DCC control system...
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIEDecoders range in price from $19.99 to $39.95.
Decoders range in price from $19.99 to $39.95.
Brakie,
If you're paying that much for decoders, you're buying them from the wrong sources. I can get NCE DA13SRJ decoders for $12 each from a couple of mail order suppliers, and TCS T-1 are only slightly higher.
DCC=many trains running at once
DC=quiet
DCC=sound
I think with this information, you can decide for yourself.
~G4
19 Years old, modeling the Cowlitz, Chehalis, and Cascade Railroad of Western Washington in 1927 in 6X6 feet.
themattmanIf this is the case please someone let me know what the best set would be. I am willing to spend around $200, if that helps out.
This question is more about money than DC or DCC. If you only have $200 bucks, then I would either buy a NEW Atlas or Athearn DC trainset. They are both great starter sets and will not disappoint.
Later when your pants are full of money , I would revisit the opportunity to go DCC. You can buy a NEW DCC starter set for around $150 on sale. Stick with NCE or Digitrax. Some people like MRC. I don't.
The best answer i can give you about the differences between DC and DCC cannot fit in a forum page. Before you go hog wild purchasing a DCC system, you may want to read up on it before you begin. www.kalmbach.com has some really good starter "how to" books on DCC and how to wire your layout for a DC and / or a DCC system. With DCC you are getting into a system that will require 1. a power source, 2. a command station, 3. locomotive and stand alone decoders, 4. (maybe) power boosters and districts 5. a control throttle that sets addresses and different command functions, 6. how to program on a programming track and 7.a basic knowledge of DCC to learn to program the equipment.
Don't let it scare you, just read up on it before you begin. It's really simple once you've started if you get the basics down first.
In my opinion (got that? "in my opinion" ....I don't want to start flame wars) I'd look for a DCC system in the big 4 which are Digitrax, Easy DCC, NCE, or a Lenz system. They are quality DCC systems that will bring you years of enjoyment if you pick a DCC system from the big 4.....chuck
themattmanThanks for your idea. I just found on ebay a train set : HO SCALE MODEL RAILROAD DIGITAL COMMANDER DCC TRAIN SET Is this worth while?
No its not worthwhile.Its dime store crap. Stay away from this set. Stick with a GOOD trainset like Atlas or Athearn.
Atlas is offering a rebate with the purchase of a new trainset. Check it out here.
http://www.atlasrr.com/trainsetrebate.htm
cacole BRAKIE Decoders range in price from $19.99 to $39.95. Brakie, If you're paying that much for decoders, you're buying them from the wrong sources. I can get NCE DA13SRJ decoders for $12 each from a couple of mail order suppliers, and TCS T-1 are only slightly higher.
BRAKIE Decoders range in price from $19.99 to $39.95.
I quoted prices from Tony's which is competitive with other on line shops.
No disrespect meant but,I am yet to see those famous $12.00 decoders since nobody as posted a link to these super cheap decoders and IIRC this makes the 3rd or 4th time I have asked for a link over the years..
A few thoughts that might help the OP, or not, but here goes.
I am a DC user and have no interest in DCC or sound, but, dispite some responses to the contrary, if you want sound you want DCC.
BECAUSE, none of the sound equiped locos run worth a (blank) on DC. The sound cuts in and out, the speed control is poor at best, and the sounds cannot be easily controlled.
Personally I don't see te point in DCC unless it is wireless so low cost "entry" systems seem like a waste of time/money to me.
How big will your layout be, other than or sound, most small starter layouts don't really NEED DCC, but starting out with it may be good if you plan to expand.
However, learning some old fashioned basics about DC will help you as you grow in the hobby.
The Bachmann set is not "crap", but again, what is the real point of DCC if it is not wireless?
Bachmann's current regular line locos have much improved drives over those offered just a few years ago, their track is as good as any sectional track system, their RTR freight cars are likely the weakest item and are still OK.
Atlas and Athearn are also very good.
Sheldon
BRAKIENo disrespect meant but,I am yet to see those famous $12.00 decoders since nobody as posted a link to these super cheap decoders and IIRC this makes the 3rd or 4th time I have asked for a link over the years.
Larry,
Here's a site that has NCE D13SRJs, as follows:
1-pk - $12.95 ea.
10-pk - $11.995 ea
They are 4-function decoders, too.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
tstage BRAKIENo disrespect meant but,I am yet to see those famous $12.00 decoders since nobody as posted a link to these super cheap decoders and IIRC this makes the 3rd or 4th time I have asked for a link over the years. Larry, Here's a site that has NCE D13SRJs, as follows: 1-pk - $12.95 ea. 10-pk - $11.995 ea They are 4-function decoders, too. Tom
Tom
Sweet deals for 4 function decoders espeically the 10 pack.
Tom,Thanks for posting the link..
ATLANTIC CENTRALHowever, learning some old fashioned basics about DC will help you as you grow in the hobby.
Sheldon,
As a DCC user I would have to totally agree with you on this one statement. However, I would love to see someone write a "wiring for DC" book that actually and simply taught electrical novices the step-by-step basics about electricity and DC wiring, as it pertains to MRRing.
The ones that I have attempted to read seem to start out well enough. However, the author inevitably (and fatally) always manages to make "assumptions" about the reader far too early; quickly jumping to a higher level of learning and soon leaving the novice reader scratching their head and discouraged because he (the reader) doesn't have the experience, background, and/or know-how to make the logical connection from where the author started out and where he has just jumped to.
And, yes, I have read the ones written by the MRR masters about DC wiring. (Those are the ones that I'm referring to in the paragraph above.) The authors obviously know their stuff. However, they don't necessarily know how to explain it well enough in order for a novice to logically connect the pieces together. For me, Lionel Strang came closest when he wrote his book, DCC Made Easy.
...but again, what is the real point of DCC if it is not wireless?
For me, it's made MRRing a much more enjoyable experience - even tethered. There are times on my small 4x8 layout when I run two trains simultaneously: A thru train around the loop and a switcher in the yard. And I can do that from one throttle.
Tom,One thing that complicates DC is the over blocking.I seen way to many layouts that suffer from block overkill and feeder wire overkill.One doesn't need to block or add a feeder wire to a short industrial spur but,yet many beginner books/layout articles written by "experts" shows these flaws..One can get by with 2 wires to the track for basic 1 train operation with industrial spurs on a 4x8' layout-ask those that slapped down a loop of snap track on a 4x8 footer shortly after Christmas without the interference of "experts" or advice from follow modelers.
Some times I wonder if we (that we includes me) over complicate the simple and forgot the very basics as we advance in the hobby? After all the same basics we used in our innocent year(s) still apply today.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL but again, what is the real point of DCC if it is not wireless?
You're funny
BRAKIETom,One thing that complicates DC is the over blocking.I seen way to many layouts that suffer from block overkill and feeder wire overkill.One doesn't need to block or add a feeder wire to a short industrial spur but,yet many beginner books/layout articles written by "experts" shows these flaws..One can get by with 2 wires to the track for basic 1 train operation with industrial spurs on a 4x8' layout-ask those that slapped down a loop of snap track on a 4x8 footer shortly after Christmas without the interference of "experts" or advice from follow modelers. Some times I wonder if we (that we includes me) over complicate the simple and forgot the very basics as we advance in the hobby? After all the same basics we used in our innocent year(s) still apply today.
I would wholeheartedly agree. I've looked at some of the blocking diagrams in those books and have just shaken my head. The problem is, had I been brought up to speed along the way as I read through the author's book, I might have determined myself that the diagram in Ch. 8 could have been made simpler (for my application) than what was outlined. However, since the author lost me waaaaay back in Ch. 2, how was I to question their logic.
I have always appreciated the truism given by Albert Einstein:
"Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler."
Although DCC does have some aspects to it that are more complicated than DC, I do find that the overall technology makes things less complicated and more enjoyable for me. As with DC, you can make DCC as simple or as complicated as you want to.