I understand that sound is subjective to an individul's perception, but has anyone actually done a Diesel comparison between say a QSI decoder and a Tsunami in identical locos with identical speaker setups? What I really want to know is: are they equal or is one a better value for the money? This is a sincere question, John
Ask 10 people and you'll get 10 answers. You're on the right track, saying identical speaker setups, but there's another critical factor in the output quality of a sound decoder - and that is the quality of the sound clip that is used as the source recording. You could have an audiophile quality sound system but if you play a scratchy old mono tape recording through it, it's not going to sound good.
Unfortunately there's no way to to a 100% apples to apples comparison - using the same source files, same audio editing software, etc. - because only Loksound and Digitrax alow you to load your own audio files. With QSI and Soundtraxx you're at the mercy of what they supply you with.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I agree. If you had a high quality, highly standardized assemby process of the same model with (pick a decoder and matching speaker assmby), you would still get some very minor variations in sound quality from unit to unit. Many wouldn't notice, but some with acute auditory systems would definitely look askance at some of the units with a raised eyebrow.
Now take versions of the same prototype done up the way two or three manufacturers specify they should be engineered and assembled, and you are likely to hear a substantial variation.
I do know that the Tsunami has great sounds, but not all the sounds for all the prototypes. It contains libraries that will please all but the truly discerning sticklers who want the best for their model's prototype. QSI has a much more extensive library that the sellers are supposed to poll you for and they do the loads prior to shipment. The problem is that many are batch file loads (packages, if you will) where one or more sound files do not belong on the engine used on a given road. This is what I found when I wanted a QSI Revolution in my Genesis SD-75M from the Santa Fe. I think I came very close to the right prime mover, but the horn was a K5LA, and not the K3LA that it was supposed to be for that engine on the Santa Fe.
-Crandell
johncolleyI understand that sound is subjective to an individul's perception,
I believe that you are exactly correct. I recently asked a similar question concerning a decoder for a GE C30-7 and received similar answers.
Friend of mine has a Tsunami GE and I listened to it. The motor sound was a nice grumble, but the engine seemed to move before the motor revved up, and there didn't seem to be any notching. This might be because he hadn't fooled with any of the settings yet. I thought that the horn was pretty poor.
So I bought a QSI Revolution A which I hope to get installed shortly. If the horn is as good as the one that is in my QSI equipped Atlas B23-7, I'll be more than satisfied. Plus I wanted to get a specific horn sound (Leslie 3-chime). This is one of the available horns and sounded just right (to me) when I listened to it at the hobby shop. I think that the GE decoder sound set also has that "whoooop" sound that is associated with the motor driven air compressor starting up. Now the actual C30-7 might not have a motor driven air compressor, but the sound is a lot of fun anyway. And if I find out that there is actually a belt driven compressor, then there is a really neat U30 air compressor sound available.
Randy-
Off topic, but how long has it been since we listened to tapes?
Vinyl records get scratches, magnetic tapes get "dropouts".
I suppoose if you had a tape of a scratched record.....
For the most part, I agree with David's generalizations about the strengths and weakness' of the major sound decoder players.
For me, as much fun as sound is, and as addicted to it as I have become, the primary fuction IMO of a decoder is the motor control. For me it's hard to beat the silky smothness of ESU. Late model QSI, with BEMF are getting better with every release. I have yet to try a Tsunami.
As someone else noted, some decoders start the movement before the engine revs, no matter what the momentum settings. ESU has this pegged correctly as well. Again, late model QSI is getting better. I couldn't get Digitrax, or early QSI to do this at all. Notching is also important to me. I want to be able to control at what speed step it notches.
I guess what I'm trying to say, is that for me, and I am somewhat of an audiophile (I used to buy tweeters that had a 23K response, because I COULD hear it), putting sound quality ahead of motor control and realistic motor triggered sound effects doesn't make sense.
1948PRR Randy- Off topic, but how long has it been since we listened to tapes? Vinyl records get scratches, magnetic tapes get "dropouts". I suppoose if you had a tape of a scratched record..... For the most part, I agree with David's generalizations about the strengths and weakness' of the major sound decoder players. For me, as much fun as sound is, and as addicted to it as I have become, the primary fuction IMO of a decoder is the motor control. For me it's hard to beat the silky smothness of ESU. Late model QSI, with BEMF are getting better with every release. I have yet to try a Tsunami. As someone else noted, some decoders start the movement before the engine revs, no matter what the momentum settings. ESU has this pegged correctly as well. Again, late model QSI is getting better. I couldn't get Digitrax, or early QSI to do this at all. Notching is also important to me. I want to be able to control at what speed step it notches. I guess what I'm trying to say, is that for me, and I am somewhat of an audiophile (I used to buy tweeters that had a 23K response, because I COULD hear it), putting sound quality ahead of motor control and realistic motor triggered sound effects doesn't make sense.
I have some scratchy MP3 digital files too - wanna hear? If the dropout occured right at the scratch, then what?
You can't beat ESU's motor control (except maybe with Zimo - and if you think ESU decoders are expensive...).
Not sure what soudn sets David has tried on the Soundbug, but the one I got with the stock factory sound set in it (a somewhat generic "SD38") has 3 settings for notching - automatic, semi-automatic, and completely manual. In manual mode I can crank the loco to warp speed but the decoder just putts along in idle - or I can notch it up to Run 8 and have it sit there not moving, like it's doign a load test. There is a CV that needs to be changed to pick which mode you want to use. A while ago I posted Youtube video of a Soundbug-equipped loco that someone had taken the time to develop a good sound set for, using quality recordings. In the video it runs through all 8 notches and back down and doesn't move an inch - manual notching is DEFINITELY in there.
More to my point - it's almost all in the speakers and enclosures. What good is 16 bit 44KHz sampling if it's played back through speakers that can't reproduce much more than 300hz-10Khz? And in there - enclosures make ALL the difference. I really think most peopel are using enclosures that are too small, hampering bass response for speakers that already have issues due to their small size. Case in point, I mounted my Sounbug's speaker in an enclosure that probably would be a tight fit in an O scale loco, but wow was the sound improved VS using a pill bottle lid size enclosure. Just got to figure out how to make the entire loco body an enclosure somehow, and still fit a motor and gears in it. Or the non-pulling but great soundsing steam loco - hollow sealed boiler with the speaker on the backhead end.
still in all, I prefer a good runner to anything, so for now I will not be runnign any sound locos. If I ever pick up anymore F units, I might give another go to making a great sounding dummy B unit, but powered locos for sound jsut don;t do it for me, they're fun for a little while and then it wears thin.
What I find interestign is that none of the files you can download ont eh Digitrax site have anythign other then a generic "diesel run" sound, yet Fred Miller has managed to get 7 seperate sounds for each notch of his Peter Witt streetcar project. In that project there are 7 different motor sounds, not just one like in all the files downloaded from Digitrax. Tranistions, I don't know. If I ever ge a PR3 I can try loading the file, he freely provides the SPJ file but not the other bits that go with for his SPJ Helper. It IS possible, if you want to be a PCI programmer as well as a sound editor (although Fred's SPJ Helper program should fix that), to do darn near anything, BECAUSE you can get into the nittt gritty PIC code. Luckily there's a 'simple' mode in Fred's program which is somewhat like the event model for Loksound, of course it also probably limits what you can do vs writign your own ASM code.
I have not heard a diesel Tsunami yet. BUT if they have programmed the sound the same way the old DSD and DSX decoders were it will be great. EMD 1st generation diesels had an interesting way of loading up on certain throttle up and throttle down situations. The Soundtraxx people captured it just right.
As the other's have said the programming is more important than the actual sound processor.
Just looking at their specifications they are both 16 bit, both polymorphic. Tsunami is 1 watt, QSI is 2. Neither report THD, frequency response, or other normal audio measures. Then one gets into the features: Tsunami has reverb QSI has doppler. Tsunami has an equalizer, QSI has 8 channels. I am guessing that all things equal a mere mortal would not be able to tell the difference.
Then the price is nearly identical so there isn't any big $ / performance trade offs.
1948PRROff topic, but how long has it been since we listened to tapes?
Texas Zepher 1948PRROff topic, but how long has it been since we listened to tapes?I don't know about WE, but me - last night. I've got Victory At Sea on reel-to-reel. No comparison to the digital versions available today.
I've actually got one in my truck.
Truck has dual media (best factory system I've ever heard- Dodge Infinity).
Tape is demo I made on Tascam 4 track tape teck back around the turn of the century (1999-2000) Mixed down to Sony ES series stereo deck.
Lots of people claim to be able to hear a difference in digital vs analog recording. I can't unless it's really poor, or has phase shift. I think, though, that maybe there is truth to that as the digital wave form has "square" compnents vs the true curve of analog. IIRC the higher the sampling rate, the smaller the square corners (or the closer they are together), and the better the sound.
I can relate to that as before my eyes went south due to diabetes, I could see the "square" "pixels" on LCD monitors. This was VERY annoying to me, especially on letters like S and O, so much so that I couldn't use one for longer than a few minutes. Now I can use a computer without being distracted, but I can still see them on 1080 televisions.