I hope my days of eating decoders are over. As suggested (OK beaten over the head with a baseball bat) I replaced my old DCC system to a Digitrax SEB and found and fix the buss wire problem. I have only cooked one decoder after that and it is in a old Proto BL 2.
Well, the BL 2 are well over 20 years old so it is time to remoter. I am going with a Helix Humper motors for the BL 2 fleet.
Of the last 16 decoder I cooked 12 of them where in Athearn RTR DCC ready engines. I BBQ 1 in a PCM Big Boy and 3 in old Proto BL 2's. Not counting 20 year old Protos I yet to cook a decoder in a Proto engine or BLI QSI decoder.
With the better DCC system and learning some about CV's I am wondering if it might not be a good idea to replaces the Athearn DCC ready engines motors as well. My Athearns need a lot more power to get them moving than my PCM, PK and BLI's. Few of them need speed steep (not the right term) of 25 or so on the DT 400 to get moving. I adjusted a few of them so CV 2 = 25 before they started to move on step 1. Is that to high, it seems so to me.
These are not old engines, oldest one is two year max. Beside collecting stamps, what do you folks think?
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
I don't see a need to replace the motor. The RTR motors draw a lot less amperage than the BB motors. There are various websites that show how to tune up a RTR motor. You might try soldering the various electrical connections to the PC board.
Maybe someone will offer more advice. Just my
Will
I dunno about the early runs of RTR, but my RTR RS-3, after soldering wires to fix the horrendous power pickup design, starts at a very low throttle position adn creeps along beautifully, and that's without making any changes to CV2. Of course, I'm using a TCS T-1 decoder with automatic BEMF instead of a DH123 which has no BEMF. If I turn BEMF off, it takes a lot more juice and the minimum speed is higher, but not like I need to turn it to 25% to make it move. I Finally got paid for my 160 hours in 2 weeks work, so I have a DT400 on order so rather than approximates from the Zephyr potentiometer I'll be able to relate actual speed steps and percentages - but really, I barely have to crack the throttle and the RS-3 starts creeping. Definitely needs more than my Stewarts but again, not like 25% - and also again, I've changed nothing in the decoders other than the address at setting up dimming headlights. Not CV2 start voltage, no speed tables. At least not yet.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Replacing the motors would be a last resort to solving the issue you're describing. The motors in the new RTR locos should not be the cause of your constantly frying decoders. The issue lies elsewhere like is poor track wiring. poor trackwork causing derailments that create a short, poor isolation of the motor from the frame, poor install of the decoder or a binding in the mechanism.
There's not doubt that a replacing the motor with something like a Kato motor will improve performance, its not required to resolve the problem.
Maybe stamps IS an option to be considered with all the problems you seem to be experiencing.
Silver PilotThe motors in the new RTR locos should not be the cause of your constantly frying decoders.
Silver pilot, I am not cooking decoders now. I think those days are over, knock on wood. I just want to be on the safe side.
With the higher starting speed I wanted to be safe so that was why I was thinking of the newer motors. All so read a posting on the main page about Athearn Motor's,that added fuel to the thought.
If hard wiring the Athearns will help I will give it a try.
Cuda Ken, now where is the Pearl White Tooth Past?
Keep in mind with "blue box Athearn" type set ups, you have to insulate the motor from the chassis. I wonder if that could be the problem you were having?? There's a problem there somewhere if you've ruined a dozen decoders already. I've been in DCC about five years, and I think I've wrecked one decoder.
Rule No.1 of decoder installation is ALWAYS put the engine on the programming track FIRST and try to read a CV like the engine ID etc. If it reads the CV, it's OK. If it doesn't read it, there's a short or other problem. The power is low enough on the programming track that you won't hurt anything if there is a short.
Ken,
Do you have an RRampmeter on your layout to see what the actual draw of the loco is? I have a number of recent Athearn RTR and Bluebox locos and they don't draw much current.(I don't remember the specifics.) I have found my RRampmeter to be invaluable in diagnosing problems with locos.
The Athearn drives sometimes require a relatively high vale in CV2 to get the loco moving. Also you may need to adjust other variables to get the locos moving smoothly, depending on which decoders you are using.
I would check over the wiring job on the Athearns. They use a layer of paint to insulate the bottom motor clip from the frame. I would take the motor out (4 screws) and put a layer of electrical tape down to eliminate this problem. While it is apart, might as well clean and re-lube the drive, and check the wiring. Maybe solder the connections to the Quick-Plug board from the trucks. Sometimes the boards have defects from the factory.
On most engines I have with a TCS T-1 decoder (Back-EMF on), it starts moving on step 1 on my DT400. Other decoders require setting CV2 to 25-30.
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
Folks, thank for all the great answers!
Stix, all the decoders I have BBQ have ran for sometime before the smoked. Up to the other weekend I did not have a programing track! One thing I did not know about the Digitrax SEB is there is none! With the Digitrax PR 3 up and running I have one. But it would not saved one decoder. Most take from 4 hours to 80 hours to cook. BUT THAT WAS WITH THE OLD DCC SYSTEM. Only the PK BL 2 as let its smoke out with the new DCC set up.
First Mike, I do need to get a Rampmeter from Tony's. But, $ wise this and last year have not been kind. So it is on the list of wants.
WSOR 3801On most engines I have with a TCS T-1 decoder (Back-EMF on), it starts moving on step 1 on my DT400. Other decoders require setting CV2 to 25-30.
Second Mike, would the other decoders be Digitrax? When I order the Helix Humper motor, I was going to try a TCS decoder for the PK BL 2.
Cuda Ken and thanks again for your time.
Since you say you're short of $$ instead of spending it on what would seem to be unnecessary motor replacements use what you were going to spend on the motor to buy a RRampMeter. One RRampMeter = 2 Helix Humpers.
With 10 years of DCC experience I've never had a cook decoder simply becuase its been used for a certain amount of time. These are solid state items that don't simply go bad becuase you have "hours" on them.
cudaken If hard wiring the Athearns will help I will give it a try.
But don't use that 1500 Watt plumber's soldering iron or acid core solder.
I think Pearl Drops toothpaste is a thing of the past. Didn't the American Dental Association determine that the grit in it was harmful (or the State of California determined that it could cause cancer or birth defects?)
I think replacing motors would be a waste of time and money. In my fleet of locomotives I have needed to replace only one motor over the years. Even my old Globe Models F-7 motor still runs, and this was Irv Athearn's first ever HO kit, circa 1950.
I use NCE and TCS decoders for my non- sound locos with good success. Also, I have repowered a number of older blue boxes with Helix Humpers but have not been able to get Helix Humpers recently.
I would not repower a newer Athearn loco, they don't draw that much current. With tuning of the Torque Compensation cv 116 and 117 on NCE decoders or Dither cv 56 and 57 on TCS decoders and your starting speed you can get these locos to preform pretty well.
I would consider getting a RRampmeter. It could save a lot of money in the future. Kinda like getting your own ignition scope. If you see the amperage climbing up more than usual, you might be able to prevent the BBQ.
I have used Digitrax and NCE decoders, both require setting CV2 to 25-30 on an Athearn to get it to move somewhere near step 1. Use the PR-3 and Decoder Pro, things go a bit faster. When testing, try to have the shell removed. You want to just see the motor start to turn.
I have yet to have aneed for an expensive RRampmeter. Nice toy. Not needed. A cheapy $5 multimeter from Harbor Freight works just fine. No, the voltage is not exact - but why is that so important? A standard AC multimeter is CLOSE - plenty close enough for what we need. It's not like the meter will read 9 volts and you're pumping 30 through your decoders. What's important if you have multiple boosters is that it's CLOSE across various power districts so you don;t have wierd speedups and slowdowns as your locos cross the gaps. Do I REALLY need to know that my track voltage is 14.53 volts? It is seeing "14" close enough? If all sections say "14" doesn't that tell me the same thing as if I had the expensive piece and it told me all sections were 13.97?
For current - measure it with DC. The cheapy $5 meter has a 10 amp range that should work with just about anything, even multi-motor G scale locos. Hold the flywheels to stall out the motor, check the stall current. Buy a decoder that meets or exceeds this number. Want to check the wholelayout? There's a circuit with no more than $1 worth of parts that will give the correct reading when put in the track circuit and then connected to one of the cheapy meters. I haven't tried just the meter to see how far off it is with a square wave vs a sine wave. Like the voltage - probably off but close enough for what we need.
Randy- do you have a link to or description of this circuit handy?
I once caught a train in my pajama's. How it got in my pajama's I'll never know... (sorry, Groucho)
Here are several references:
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track.htm#a4
http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/nswmn2/DCC_Meters.htm
http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaisley4/DCCvolts.html