I am planning a changover to DCC from DC.
I am wondering some of you would mind telling of your experiences with the various systems available. In particular, I would like to know how easy is it to learn each system. Are user manuals well written? Are you satisfied with customer serivice of the manufacturers? Were there any major problems?
Basically, I am asking those who already are using DCC systems if they can tell what should I know before I select a system?
I read MR's book by Lionel Strang. It's a huge help, and I recommend it.
I have read the thread about which system for a particlar layout, but it would also help to know how good the companies are with helping their customers.
Any and all comments are welcome. This is one of those open ended questions.
GARRY
HEARTLAND DIVISION, CB&Q RR
EVERYWHERE LOST; WE HUSTLE OUR CABOOSE FOR YOU
My one and only DCC system is not a starter, instead was the fullblown NCE system, first installed in 1999s. I used a command control system called Dynatrol prior to that, which helped immensely in installing the NCE.
That said, I found the NCE system easy to install, and easy to maintain. I do have a question at times, and I mostly go to the NCE forum for help, which is always forthcoming. The manuals, as far as I am concerned could still be improved, but they are a big help and fairly easy to understand.
Finally, NCE has been extremely helpful with questions and problems, they have always done better with phone calls than answering emails. I have also had help from Tony's and Litchfield Station.
Bob
I am always accutely sensitive that my remarks can cause resentment or offense to some people, but I do have some strong feelings on this subject.
My first foray into DCC was with the Bachmann EZ-Command set when it first came out in 2005. I was lured by the price and by my LHS owner's sales pitch. I returned it within 10 days and ordered a Digitrax Super Empire Builder which I received and installed about a month later.
DCC means different things to different people. Some of us are gurus (not I) and most of us just use it and delve into the nooks and crannies when we really need to. But the DCC system, as an idea, offers a tremendous amount of diverse operational capability to the savvy user. I was not the savvy user when I purchased the EZ-Command, but I learned one thing very quickly...it was not going to provide me with the capability to do what I wanted to do. I knew enough that I wanted to be able to tune the motor response, to tune bell rates, to adjust electronic chuff and BEMF. I knew that much...or that little, depending on your orientation and experience with DCC to this point. The EZ-Command would do none of that. For me, I was almost outraged that Bachmann would sell the product, but I can say empathically that I was disappointed. And back it went.
I won't tout the great Super Empire Builder. There are better and more modern systems out there, and to keep this short, you could almost take your pick and be entirely happy with it. You could just as likely be very unhappy if you don't think about ergonomics, warranty, cost, power-handling capability, expandability, and so on. But I feel that many, most, of us, if we were forced to purchase only the monopoly-minded Kingpin DCC Super Kingdom Builder, and it did what my old clunker does for me, would probably be mostly happy. The reality is that there are many variations from several suppliers, and they are likely as not to please you...mostly.
From here, it's all up to you to decide.
-Crandell
I can't speak to the whole spectrum of offerings, but you should know this has been addressed in many threads before, and a search should find them which give very good comparative info.
Without much experience, I went with the Digitrax Zepher and it has been just fine for me. Installed easily, performs as promised, has a decent manual, and I seem assured (by others) it can always be upgraded or blended in with future Digitrax products. They have a full line of accessories..... throttles, add-on power modules, etc. From prior threads, my conclusion is Digitrax is a competent and leading system. Now, there are a couple others which also have the same status as you will find out from reviewing the threads. The best ones, seem to keep popping up regularly with good reports from experienced users.
Happy DCCing! Hal
My advice would be to go to each systems web site and download the manuals for their starter sets. The club I belong to uses Lenz. I operate a friends layout with Digitrax but I bought an NCE Power Cab for home. So far I like the Power Cab. Its capable of doing more than I need it to do and with all the other systems I have tried was the easiest to learn.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
Hi!
Obviously you have brought up an issue that has some strong opinions attached to it. Let me relate mine.
Mainly due to the folks on this Forum, I decided to switch to DCC 6 months ago. I read and read and read and asked "tons" of questions. I soon realized that DCC (for me) was not the simple "hook up two wires and run" scenario touted by some, nor was it to be the overwhelming electronics engineering challenge that was touted by others. There is an "in between", and some of the folks on this Forum finally got me to realize that. DCC is as much or as little as you wish it to be.
I researched systems and soon decided that NCE or Digitrax were the best for my situation. I can list a lot of reasons for this, but it really comes down to the Companies' strength, product selection, and the fact that many MRs were already using them. After further research, I decided to go with Digitrax for the system (Super Chief plus extra controllers/booster), DCC specialties for the circuit breakers, and primarily NCE for the decoders.
The manuals are ok, and there are Yahoo and other "user groups" out there with the answers to all the questions you can come up with. AND, there are the good people on this Forum that seem to be able and willing to help quickly and any time day or night.
For what its worth,
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
I bought a Lenz System 100. It's not a starter system, but I wanted something that would already be ready to handle a larger layout when the time came. At the time, Lenz was one of the few manufacturers that offered a 5-amp system right out of the box. It also supported 13 functions, again, a bit ahead of the curve back then (4 years ago.)
But, the single most important reason I chose the Lenz system was...
GREAT BIG BUTTONS!
Yes, I like the throttle. I don't have to squint to read tiny cell-phone buttons, or use a stylus to press them without hitting 2 or 3 other buttons at the same time.
Now, other people have different opinions about this. Obviously, if you have big buttons, you can't fit as many on the unit as you can with small buttons. But, that's not really my point. I think it's important to hold each throttle in your hand, play with it and, if possible, try running trains with it. The rest of the stuff is pretty much the same, but the throttle is your link to the system. You should find the one you're happiest with.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Garry,
I would definitely go with one of the Big Three (Digitrax, Lenz or NCE) since they have the widest user base. An important thing to consider is: What do the majority of modelers in your area use? For example, if you live in a "Digitrax" town, it's probably better to go with that brand since you'll have a better chance of getting local assistance if you need it. Plus, when you have op sessions, your guests can all bring their own throttles if you're using the same system they use - you won't need to buy any extra ones.
Aside from that, I'd say read the manuals and try to "test-drive" each of the top brands. Also, plan for what you think you'll need 5-10 years down the road so the system can grow along with your layout.
-Ken in Maryland (B&O modeler, former CSX modeler)
Unlike Crandell (Slector) I enjoyed my E-Z Command for 2 years. What Crandell did not like about it is what I liked. You could not mess up CV's. What finaly made me change form the E-Z seems to be a missed match power booster that ate decoders. If I had went with the Bachmann Booster I still be using it. It all so has big buttons like the Lenz.
Heart Land, main thing is what do you want to do with your layout?
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
If you have a hobby shop near you, do they handle 1 of the name brands, or maybe a couple. My LHS is a Digitrax dealer, and he has been very helpful when I have had questions.
As mentioned in previous posts, a local shop, club, or friends that use a particular manufacturer can be a lifesaver when you are starting out in DCC.
Good luck,
Joel
I went with a Digitrax Zephyr and have been happy with its performance, its ease of use, the support from Digitrax and the expandability of the product. I purchased it some years ago and there really were not many competing starter sets at the same level. If I were looking today I would also give the NCE Powercab a serious look. I don't think I would seriously consider any other starter set beyond these two.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
I've been DCC for about three years now. The first two years was with a Bachmann EZ-Command and for the last year I got a Digitrax Zephyer which I've found to be drop dead easy to use. I've had no issues with it and am quite happy with it.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
Thanks for the comments. I've read them all carefully. I will do that again, too. It looks like you have had good experiences with some of the major DCC brands. I'll see if there are other people who wish to add their comments. My LHS is over a hundred miles from here, so I do not go often. My layout is around the wall double track with about 130' of walls. in addition, there are penensulas and there is a second level covering another 50'. I have installed 3 sets of 12 guage bus wires for the 130', and there is one more pair for the second level. I will place the main controls somewhat in the center. I plan to have a wireless system.
Heartland Division CB&QI am wondering some of you would mind telling of your experiences with the various systems available. In particular, I would like to know how easy is it to learn each system. Are user manuals well written? Are you satisfied with customer serivice of the manufacturers? Were there any major problems? Basically, I am asking those who already are using DCC systems if they can tell what should I know before I select a system?
How easy is it to learn each system. Hmmm what is easy and intuitive for one person could be convoluted to the next. What do you want to learn? Just picking up the throttle and running a train, or do you mean learning how to do everything and being an expert. I found that for just using the system to do simple programming and running trains the two systems with consoles (CVP, Digitrax Zephyr) to be the easiest to learn. For the Lenz system I had to go to the manuals often, but then I discovered that the system was set to speak in "German" when I got it. When I learned how to setting it to speak English it helped a lot.
I've never read the Digitrax Zephyr manual, except when I was trying various programming modes for a stubborn piece of junk Athearn Genesis sound unit. The Lenz manuals do not flow well to an American's way of thinking. I've never understood why the most used section of the manual starts on page 39. But it does contain everything I've needed to know.
Lenz support was great the one time our club's system had an issue (fried output transistor), and for upgrades. They charged us the cost of return postage to fix it. So far all the system upgrades have been free other than once again return shipping. I've had mixed response from NCE with decoder issues. They were really great getting one diagnosed and replaced that was DOA but not nearly as responsive to more technical questions about their inter workings. I have not contacted Digitrax support; however, I should because I have a few of their decoders here that need some help.
What you should know is how you want to operate the railroad is probably a bigger deciding factor than the system itself. A one person show is different than having a flock of friends running the trains. The feel of the throttle in your hand, whether you like push buttons or knobs, feedback provided, etc. The throttles are the most important things. I thought I would hate the Lenz LH-100 throttle with the push buttons so I bought a whole bunch of the LH-90s with the knob. Guess what, I use the LH-100 much more than the 90s. The Lenz throttles (both) are a little bit to wide for my liking. I want to hold and operate the throttle with one hand. Can't quite do that. I LOVE the size & shape of the CVP wireless throttles. I hate the mass of the NCE hammer heads after a 4 hour operating session I want to throw the thing in the garbage. Also don't forget there are utility throttles (smaller less features) for the Digitrax and NCE systems. I hate the Digitrax wireless throttles because they still have a wire. The Digitrax Zephyr has a unique feature called a jumper throttle. This is where you can hook up a normal DC throttle and control a DCC train with it. All of this is personal preference. You will have your own personal preferences. I highly recommend getting out to some operating groups and actually using the various throttles before you decide. If you go to a store (all those miles away) call ahead and have them plan on you playing with them for a few hours.
In my opinion you cannot go wrong with any of the these systems Digitrax, NCE, Lenz, or CVP. I hear the new Zimo (actually not new anymore) is really nice and a "generation" ahead of all these, but that is only hear say.
Ah yes....which system. I was where you are now 6 months ago. Lots of advice...all good will come your way. I went with the Digitrax Super Chief and couldn't be happier. And I am a moron when it comes to all of this stuff. The super chief is very easy to set up and get going. Then you just start getting more into the different things DCC can do. In 6 months I have progressed to simple programming...installing tortoise switch machines and adding signals to the layout...with everything working. (knock on wood)
I had a lot of help from Mike at Charleston Digital Trains and Craig at Dallas Model Works. I'm sure they can lead you in the right direction.
Good luck and enjoy,
Dave
'there's something happening here, what it is ain't exactly clear' Modeling the Hard Knox Valley Railroad in HO scale http://photos.hardknoxvalley.com/
Gary, you mention your need for wireless, A couple of follow up questions, how many operators do you want to be able to support? and how many locos do you anticipate running simultaneously?
As a Q fan you are almost required to get a Zephyr however, it may not meet your requirements?
Digitrax will very soon be releasing a new 2 way wireless solution, so depending on your timescale it may come out too late for you.
I went with a Digitrax Super Empire Builder and do like it, they have a Radio version as well. Its DT 400 throttle is a big plus if you run more than one main line. It has two throttles built into the hand help. I use this feature so I can run 4 engines on the two mains with out running into each other. Well Most if The Time they don't!
Main thing I don't like about the SEB is there is no programing track outlet! In that respect I wish I had went with the Super Chief. Plus I have hit the wrong button a few times and changed all the CV's on the engines on the bench. Nothing like have 10 engines address set to 36 to make life fun. Seems if you are on Po programing, unplug the DT 400 and replug it in it reverts page to Page mode.
cudaken...Main thing I don't like about the SEB is there is no programing track outlet! In that respect I wish I had went with the Super Chief. Plus I have hit the wrong button a few times and changed all the CV's on the engines on the bench. Nothing like have 10 engines address set to 36 to make life fun...
Thanks very much everybody. Each reply is very worthwhile.
One more question. What about my lighted Walthers passenger cars with Walthers lighting kits? I have used DC kits and not DCC kits. What should I do? Also I have a kato lighting kit in my Kato business car.
It sounds like your layout will require a 5 amp system and possibly some boosters. Any of the major brands should work well but you need to narrow it down to the one that works best for your operation.
It's too bad you don't have a LHS where you can touch and feel the various systems. The interface (handheld throttle, sometimes called a cab) will be a major factor in your decision. It's hard to tell how you will like them just by reading manuals and from forum comments. Maybe you can find some local clubs to visit, or possibly some train shows.
Your going to find some that love a throttle and then others who might hate the same throttle. It's hard to tell for you until you get it in your hands and actually run some trains. For example, the NCE hammer head throttle looks and feels good but after actually using it one might change their mind. I did. I found that the Digitrax DT400 was far, far better for me. I didn't expect that but that's how it turned out for me. Others may say just the opposite.
Another factor is whether or not you are going to throw turnouts from your thottle using DCC. Some smaller hand held engineer's throttles, e.g., Digitrax and NCE, are great for following trains around the layout but not for throwing turnouts. I operate solo so I use the larger primary throttle because I want to do everything from one throttle, i.e., progamming, consisting, etc., and I throw turnouts from the throttle. I found the Digitrax DT400 much better for that instead of NCE.
Wireless is a must for me and it sounds like that's the way you're going. Digitrax and NCE radio both work very, very well but Digitrax's is still simplex, meaning you have to plug in to select locos and release locos. Their new duplex should be out before long and that will be great. But I still prefer Digitrax simplex over NCR duplex as I like the throttle so much better. Their duplex should be a real winner.
Digitrax and NCE are both fine companies with very nice people to deal with. However, for me, comparing their two websites kind of gives you an indication of how complete and professional the Digitrax design and coordinated accessories and features really are. Just my opinion of course and certainly the websites don't run the trains.
Good luck in your search and decision making.
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
Your lights will work just fine on your DCC-powered rails. But, as with all things that take up their share of available energy, you must count them in the mix of everything that your power supply must deliver. Speaking of which, Digitrax, for one, does not include the power supply with your DCC system. At least, four years ago they did not when I ordered my SEB...they may have changed.
The SEB is rated for 5 amps, and I have never come close, as a lone wolf, to using perhaps half of what it offers the user. I rarely have more than two engines on the move, I almost always mute all others so that their neutral and random sounds don't drive me out of the train room, and other than the two engines, there are lights in three of the four Bachmann heavyweights that are only sometimes on the layout. Let's call it two full amps. That leaves you three for a friend or relative to use when he/she comes over to play trains with you.
My
I must say I am very impressed with the responses. The time and effort to write all of those comments is most appreciated, and it is very helpful to me.
I have narrowed it down to about six companies. (kidding) Actually, I'm close to deciding, and I am now comparing prices. Essentially, I'll get a system that will eventually operate the entire railroad. Near term, I will use it on only part of the railroad.
I am thinking of the locomotive fleet, I have mostly older HO locomotives that not at all DCC ready. I have reviewed plenty of info about converting locos to DCC including MR's DCC book by Lionel Strang.
A special thanks to each one of you for your comments!!!!!!!!!!
Happy Model Railroading!
Heartland Division CB&QI am thinking of the locomotive fleet, I have mostly older HO locomotives that not at all DCC ready. I have reviewed plenty of info about converting locos to DCC including MR's DCC book by Lionel Strang.
Sometimes I actually think the older locomotives are easier to convert. Many of the new ones with DCC plugs or other pre-ready stuff is better to just be cut out and thrown into file 13 anyway.
I've never met a locomotive that couldn't be converted.
Heartland, as far as Digitrax 5 amps power output, I have ran 8 engines so far and 5 with sound. No lack of power that I have seen. You do have to buy the power supply and the DCC system with either the SEB or Super Chief. My wiring is not great but with 174 SQ foot of bench and 3 main lines I have yet to run out of power.
Main thing that sold me was the DT 400 cab. Simon 1966 brought over is Zepher (I had a new one in the box not used yet) for me to test run, he all so had a DT 400. Zepher had a lot of draw backs when running more than one train! Hooked up the DT 400 and I was sold!
One thing you did not mention is if you plan to do more than just drive the trains with DCC. Do you plan to add signalling? Control of turnouts? Computer control, even if just for dispatching and not actual automatically run trains? These are some additional factors tha tmay make a difference in what system is best for you.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Thanks much for the additional comments everybody. I would like to eventually add signals to the layout, but now I have none. Only power turnouts are where track is hidden and out of reach. Train crews stay with their train and manually throw turnouts as needed. I have not thought much about computizing.
My plans are a little ambitious. The layout when completed will have a terminal at each end with yard tracks and reverse loops. It follows about 130 feet of walls of the train room. There are some penensulas. The track plan is a double track main the entire length. Each end will have a lower level with "hidden" tracks. I also plan to have a working steetcar line in one city.There are many industries along the entire layout.
My construction is very slow. I hate looking at just boards and track. Accordingly, I build a few feet of layout and install scenery, structures, and buildings before building the next section.
Thanks again....
If you go with Lenz, Digitrax or NCE, you are almost guaranteed happiness. They are all very good products, and the differences are primarily ones of personal preference.
I, too, have both a Lenz 100 and Lenz 90 throttle. The Lenz 90 hangs on a strip of velcro on the back of the layout. I use it so infrequently that I have to consult the manual to remember how to do it.
When you get to the point of doing decoder conversions, think about sound early. It's more economical to install a motor-and-sound decoder first than it is to either install a motor decoder and then add sound later, or to install a motor decoder and replace it later with motor-and-sound.