I'm greatly interested in teh Zephyr (best bang-for-the-buck) and the Super Empire starter systems. I like the Zephyr because it's cheaper and 2.5A will be more than enough power, but I like the seperate throttle/booster of the Super Empire. My question is actually about throttles though, but mostly about the Zephry.
I will be for the post part a sole operator, but I do want the layout to be built so I can have multiple operators when wanted (no more than 3 for right now) so I would be mounting the main Zephry throttle by the yard/carfloat dock, a power pack hooked up to one of the jump ports as a throttle for the switcher at the power company, and a UT4 throttle for walk-around capability. If I'm running a train and need to switch throttle plug in points, will the train keep moving even if the UT4 throttle is unplugged? This is a big concern for me because I would rather not have to stop my train, unplug the throttle, plug the throttle into the next outlet, and then restart the train. I would rather keep it moving. I think the UT4 has a longer cable I would only need 2 or 3 throttle ports. It is some what of a smaller area and I probably could get away with one centrally located port, but I really don't want to be stretching the cord across a room, or have to loop the cord/throttle under the layout, and if that all has to be done it would become a real mess if I had multiple operators.
The LTS said they could get be a pretty good deal on an NCE power cab, but the digitrax is more popular around here and the reason they could give me a big deal is because they are trying to unload the last NCE stuff they have so it's gone. And I like all the future capabilities (LocoNet) that digitrax offers.
I'm trying to do things on as small a budget as I can so it won't take too long (like years) to finish the layout, I can get things quicker because it won't take as much time to save up the money to get it, and I like doing stuff myself. I'm not afraid to to go by a 100 dollar decoder, a 90 dollar engine, and do the work myself to save almost 100 dollars over an already DCC equiped loco. Soldiering and wire work is no biggie for me, I can do both no problems. I would like to go with sound but again the budget so I would probably start off with no sound at first.
This is all debating whether to go with DCC or stick with DC, which I am getting the layout planning for running mutliple locos at the same time situated out. There's actually only a few spots (the yard and the power house) where I would have to worry about problems. I know DC is simpler (except maybe wiring) but it's also cheaper and it's also what I have already (an MRC Tech II).
You can unplug your Digitrax throttles and the train will keep running. The basic NCE 'Powercab' uses the throttle as the command station, so unplugging it will stop ALL trains that happen to be running. You can buy an additional power supply(SB3???) that becomes the command station and then the throttle can be unplugged while operating.
Both systems are good starter sets for getting into DCC.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
I found the jump port to be sort of a temporary thing, though it might work for some stationary decoder application like a turntable. Remember you can only control speed and direction with the jump throttle. You can't control any sounds like a horn or bell, you can't even turn the lights on and off. I used the jump port with an MRC Tech IV throttle for a while but once I got a UT4 I didn't use the jump port again. Remember the Zephyr will handle numerous throttles so you can have several operators each with their own UT4 or other throttle.
BTW even if you are planning on sticking with plug-in walkaround, I'd still spend the extra money and get a UT-4R. That way, down the road you only need to plug in a UR-91 radio receiver and you can operate on radio control.
MILW-RODRI'm greatly interested in teh Zephyr (best bang-for-the-buck) and the Super Empire starter systems. I like the Zephyr because it's cheaper and 2.5A will be more than enough power, but I like the separate throttle/booster of the Super Empire. My question is actually about throttles though, but mostly about the Zephyr
Simon 1966 brought over his Zepher for me to test run on my bench before I installed mine still new in the box. His Zepher did some things very well, but controlling 2 or 3 engines was not one of them. Lets say # 1 engine is heading west at 65% throttle, and engine B is heading East at 50% power. I you are controlling engine 1 and want to take control of Engine 2 you have to hit Loco Button, select # 2, change the direction and set the power to what # 2 was running then hit Loco button again and take control of #2. Took more time than my Bachmann E-Z did.
Far as his UT 4 throttle, well it to small and can control only one engine at a time.
Simon uses his Zepher in his yard and has a Super Empire Builder as well. He hooked up his DT 400 and after that I was sold! If engine 1 is heading west and 2 is heading east on different lines, but both are controlled by the left side of the throttle, hit Loco select # 2 and Loco again and you are in control of #2 at the the same speed and direction.
I took my Zepher and UT 4 back to my LHS and trade it in for a SEB and have never looked back!
I am far from being well off, and to say shelling out the extra $140.00 for the SEB was hard to fork over is a understatement! But, after running the Zepher then DT 400, Zepher was out. I will add, trading in the DT 4 and getting the DT 400 and keeping the Zepher was the same cost as getting the SEB.
I am glad I shelled out the extra cash, it is like having a new layout, the control of the DT 400 is that good.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
The Super Empire Builder has more power, 5 amps instead of 2.5 amps. The Zephyr has more capability, such as CV readback. The Zephyr comes only with the built in throttle, though more throttles can be easily added. The SEB comes with a DT400 throttle which will control 2 trains at once without switching back and forth. The DT400 will work with any Digitrax command station and is easily added to a Zephyr.
I have a Super Chief with the included DT400 and an added UT4. I got the UT4 so that I can hand it to my 5 year old granddaughter set to run Thomas the Tank Engine and not worry about her doing anything else. From the UT4 she cannot throw switches. From the DT400, I can. With the DT400 I can take control of the train that she is operating. My 10 year old granddaughter can be trusted with the DT400.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
wjstixRemember you can only control speed and direction with the jump throttle. You can't control any sounds like a horn or bell, you can't even turn the lights on and off.
I've long felt that a Zephyr plus a DT400 is an ideal combination, especially for a solo operator who wants a full-featured, walk-around throttle that does everything, e.g., progamming, make/break consists, throw turnouts from the throttle, etc. Yes it cost more than a UT4 but it does so much more. For me, the DT400 is the best walk-around throttle of all DCC system throttles on the market today.
The UT4 works verywell if all you want to do is control speed and direction and control functions as you follow your train around the layout. But you can't throw turnouts with it.
If 2.5 amps is enough, and it is for a great many small to medium home layouts, I would definitely pick a Zephyr over the Empire Builder to start with because of it's CV read-back capability. It has dedicated progamming track leads and you can program on the progamming track without shutting down the main layout. But, you will most likely want a walk-around throttle to go with it. Starting with a Zephyr gives you so many expansion possibilities regardless of that your needs turn out to be.
A Zephyr plus a DT400 allows you to directly control three trains at the same time, two on the DT400 and one on the Zephyr. And an important consideration is how you are going to want to throw turnouts. I rarely use my UT4 because I throw all my turnouts from the throttle and this is so easy from the DT400 or the Zephyr.
Spending just a little more up front could make a big difference in really enjoying your system. And, the question of DC vs. DCC is a no brainer for me. I doubt if I would even be in this hobby if I had to run DC.
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
The LTS sells the SEB for around 280. I like the looks of the DT400 throttle and the feel. The LTS also has a small shelf layout with mostly HO and some N scale track, a few different DCC systems (one is Zephry other one is either SEB or Super Chief), and even an MRC power pack. I got to play with the DT400 a little. What put me off the Zephyr and onto the SEB at first was the size of the throttle control. It seemed rather big. I didn't like the idea it was a stationary throttle but that was before I found out you can add on throttles. What put me off the SEB was the price. Even 280 bucks is a little steep. One reason why I am buying DC locos and plan on adding my own decoders. Figured it out if I did that with the prices of DC locos at the LTS (around 90) I could save myself right around 100 bucks. On every engine I did. Right Now I'm stuck between HO and N, it will come down to whether or not Athearn makes plans to make an MILW AC4400 in N scale, but N scales aren't much, from what I've seen (Walthers catalogue) even DCC equiped N scale locos are only around 140 bucks. There's more that catches me though. It won't be a big layout, not even sure it qualifies as a medium sized but it will fit in roughly a 110 square foot room. Obviously the N would have more trackage than the HO so that's a bit of a factor, but even then. I have a feeling I will most likely end up going with the HO scale anyways, which means 2, maybe 3 engines running at one time, comared to around 6 (at least one pair would be MU'ed) in N. So the Zephyr's 2.5A would be more than enough, the 5A SEB is kinda high and the Super Chief, well that would just be super over kill. Not to mention like 600 doolers, waaaaay too much. Also the reason if I do go with the SEB it will be with the wired throttle, not paying like an extra 150 bucks just for that.
One big concern I had was whether trains would remain running if the throttle was unplugged, at least for a short while (I kind of like the idea of the safetly fault that stops the loco when recieving no signals after a period of time), and that concern has been delinquished so no worries there. I'm also taking into affect that for the most part I will be the only operator, I am just trying to plan the layout so it can have 2 or 3 operators at once. But, again, probably 99.99% of the time it will be simply moi. Well I should say in a session. I'm sure once it's up and running friends that come over will see it and ask "can I try?". They are that type of friend. And as much 'beef' (she only does it to raze me) as my girl gives me, I know she will be nagging me to 'play' on it. She can but only if she learns to operate it, and only if she refrains from calling it 'playing'. Heck if she shuts my car doors too hard I make her apologize to the car. I'm not kidding either. We just sat there once for a few minutes because she slammed the door and refused to apologize the car because it was just a friggen car. Didn't move till she said sorry, and then it was a cruddy meaningless sorry so I made her give the car a meaningful apology, including why she was apologizing. You'd think she would remember though that I make her do it every time the door gets slamed but no, I have to remind her eeeeeeeeevery time
cudaken Far as his UT 4 throttle, well it to small and can control only one engine at a time. Simon uses his Zepher in his yard and has a Super Empire Builder as well. He hooked up his DT 400 and after that I was sold! If engine 1 is heading west and 2 is heading east on different lines, but both are controlled by the left side of the throttle, hit Loco select # 2 and Loco again and you are in control of #2 at the the same speed and direction. I took my Zepher and UT 4 back to my LHS and trade it in for a SEB and have never looked back!
Well, you could have just bought a DT 400 and used it with the Zephyr. ALL Digitrax throttles work with all of their systems. Unless you're going to run 10 trains all at once, the Zephyr probably had all the power you needed...and you could just buy a power booster and use it with the Zephyr if you did need more power.
I hope at least you got the DT 400 R so you can add radio control later if you choose...or does the Super come with the UR-91 as part of the package??
MILW-RODR,
You're probably aware of it but the Empire Builder requires a separate power supply, at extra cost, whereas the Zephyr price includes a power supply. So the Empire Builder will cost you around $315 total and the Zephyr/DT400 combined would be around $295.
wjstixI hope at least you got the DT 400 R so you can add radio control later if you choose...
jwils1 MILW-RODR, You're probably aware of it but the Empire Builder requires a separate power supply, at extra cost, whereas the Zephyr price includes a power supply. So the Empire Builder will cost you around $315 total and the Zephyr/DT400 combined would be around $295.
There is a chance I used the wrong name but I don't think I did. I know it comes as a complete starter set and is priced on Digitrax and Walthers as 350 bucks rounded up. It was kind of the middle between the Zephyr and the Super Cheif. Unless I have the Super Cheif and the Empire Builder mixed up. But anywho the LTS wants about 280 for them and I've seen them in adds in MR for like trainworld and some place in NJ for like around 250. Here it is. I had it right, the Super Empire Builder Advanced set but digi has it listed under starter sets. Comes with the DB150 booster, DT400 throttle, UP5 panel, and LT1 cable...oh wait. Gaaaaaaaaaaaaah IIIIII got it. When you said power supply I was mistaking it for the booster. Ma bad. Ok now that I know where we are all at I will probably go with the Zephyr and then get a seperate DT400 throttle. That will let me be able to kind of hide the Zephyr unit then because I would never use it. Maybe figure out a way to get it mounted flush in the fascia or something in front of the yard or rail barge or what ever I go with. Well thanks for pointing that out to me, otherwise I would have bought it, got it home, then ran back to the LTS yelling about how I just got ripped off. I wouldn't have gotten ripped off just got proven I don't always open my eye's and read.
Digitrax is a bit confusing though. They used to have the Zephyr listed under starter sets at $200 and then again listed under boosters for $180, but I think they both leveled them out to the lesser cost now. If they did I might wait and see if my LTS is going down on price too because they already want 180 for them.
MILW-RODRThey used to have the Zephyr listed under starter sets at $200 and then again listed under boosters for $180, but I think they both leveled them out to the lesser cost now.
The DCS50 product is essentially our award-winning Zephyr product shipped without a powersupply. We typically sell DCS50's to international customers who already have their own power supplies.
Ooooookay I must have missed that little explanation. I should look around then because I'm sure I got a power supply laying around somewheres that would work. I need to jot down the power supply specs to take home.
I also just realized, in roman numerals DCC is equal to 700. DC is only equal to 600. I guess DCC is 100 times better huh
MILW-RODR jwils1 MILW-RODR, You're probably aware of it but the Empire Builder requires a separate power supply, at extra cost, whereas the Zephyr price includes a power supply. So the Empire Builder will cost you around $315 total and the Zephyr/DT400 combined would be around $295. There is a chance I used the wrong name but I don't think I did. I know it comes as a complete starter set and is priced on Digitrax and Walthers as 350 bucks rounded up. It was kind of the middle between the Zephyr and the Super Cheif. Unless I have the Super Cheif and the Empire Builder mixed up. But anywho the LTS wants about 280 for them and I've seen them in adds in MR for like trainworld and some place in NJ for like around 250. Here it is. I had it right, the Super Empire Builder Advanced set but digi has it listed under starter sets. Comes with the DB150 booster, DT400 throttle, UP5 panel, and LT1 cable...oh wait. Gaaaaaaaaaaaaah IIIIII got it. When you said power supply I was mistaking it for the booster. Ma bad. Ok now that I know where we are all at I will probably go with the Zephyr and then get a seperate DT400 throttle. That will let me be able to kind of hide the Zephyr unit then because I would never use it. Maybe figure out a way to get it mounted flush in the fascia or something in front of the yard or rail barge or what ever I go with. Well thanks for pointing that out to me, otherwise I would have bought it, got it home, then ran back to the LTS yelling about how I just got ripped off. I wouldn't have gotten ripped off just got proven I don't always open my eye's and read. Digitrax is a bit confusing though. They used to have the Zephyr listed under starter sets at $200 and then again listed under boosters for $180, but I think they both leveled them out to the lesser cost now. If they did I might wait and see if my LTS is going down on price too because they already want 180 for them.
I always buy my DCC stuff from Litchfield Station as they are a very reliable and helpful supplier, and have free shipping for orders over $75. The prices I used were from them. If you go with a Super Empire Builder you want to be sure you use the correct power supply. I would go by Litchfield's recommendation. Here is their website: http://www.litchfieldstation.com/lobby/index.htm
You can get better pricing from someone like John's Hobbies but I don't know anything about them or what shipping costs are. Most local hobby shop prices are often higher but then maybe you can get better service or help from them. http://www.johnshobbies.com/store/index.php?cPath=34_45
As stated before, I personally would strongly prefer the Zephyr/DT400 combo. Someday you could upgrade to radio and after Digitrax is ready with their duplex radio it should be a real winner. I have their present simplex radio and it is excellent but duplex will offer great advantages and would be well worth waiting for. That's the beauty of Digitrax as you can do all kinds of upgrades whenever you're ready.
That was one of the selling points for me, the upgradability. But now I'm really thinking because I found out if I go with my "what if" fantacy MILW railroad, alot of the engines I would like to have in MILW paint is available in N scale. More room for track, more money to buy loco's, and just plain old more locos. So Now I went from possibly running 2 to 3 at a time to running around 10. I need to stop thinkin.
MILW-RODR That was one of the selling points for me, the upgradability. But now I'm really thinking because I found out if I go with my "what if" fantacy MILW railroad, alot of the engines I would like to have in MILW paint is available in N scale. More room for track, more money to buy loco's, and just plain old more locos. So Now I went from possibly running 2 to 3 at a time to running around 10. I need to stop thinkin.
However you would be reaching the slot maximum for the Zephyr. It has 10 loco slots, meaning you can have up to 10 active locos in use on your system. You can have as many locos as you want on the layout but only 10 of them can be active and running at one time. The Empire Builder has 22 slots and the Chief has 120. This may or may not be a factor in your decision.
Another possible limitation with the Empire Builder is that I think it can only operate functions FO to F8. The Zephyr is the same but when you add a DT400 or UT4 you can then access F0 to F12. I don't think that this happens when you add these throttles to the Empire Builder but maybe someone else can verify this.
As for the CV readback limitation of the Empire Builder, I suppose you could use a computer interface (Digitrax MS100 for about $36), and then keep track of CV values on the free Decoder Pro software. Maybe someone else can verify if it works this way but I think after programming any loco on the main layout with your DT400, you could then place the loco on an isolated progamming track and then read back all of the CV values into Decoder Pro. Of course to do this you would have to have a computer in or near the computer room.
I don't want to confuse the issue with these various comments but just want you to be aware of as much as possible so you can make the best possible decision.
Jerry is right two fold.
Zepher can control F function to 12 with the DT 400, only 8 by it self. SEB can only control to 8 with the DT 400. Like I need to hear the brakeman cut wind.
Zepher has the power to run 8 HO scale engines, we did it here and 3 where with sound.
Far as
MILW-RODRHeck if she shuts my car doors too hard I make her apologize to the car. I'm not kidding either. We just sat there once for a few minutes because she slammed the door and refused to apologize the car because it was just a friggen car. Didn't move till she said sorry, and then it was a cruddy meaningless sorry so I made her give the car a meaningful apology, including why she was apologizing.
Hummmmmmmmm, I am a car guy big time. But, you might want to rethink the above, or your trains will not be the only thing you will be playing with alone.
I am glad I went with the Super Empire, I have 25 DCC engines and they just keep coming.
All Digitrax command stations DB150, DCS50, DCS100, DCS200 can only handle up to F8.
But.... Any DT400 or UT4 can handle up to F12. That's because the throttle handle the extra functions. Digitrax built that into the firmware of their command stations so that it wouldn't need to be upgraded simply to handle the extra functions.
When the DT402's and UTwhatevers are released, they will control up to F28. Then you will be able to hear the brakeman pass gas.
Martin Myers
Martin:
Are you sure about that? While I have no personal experience with the SEB, you statement seems to conflict with the information on the Digitrax wbsite.
This just came up on the Digitrax Yahoo group and those that reported back said that F12 DID work with their DB1500 and DT400. Also, if you have an interface and JMRI, try it out - JMRI lets you use up to F28 today. If you open a throttle in JMRI it has direct buttons for F0-F15, click the * and you get F16-F28.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
jwils1As for the CV readback limitation of the Empire Builder, I suppose you could use a computer interface (Digitrax MS100 for about $36), and then keep track of CV values on the free Decoder Pro software. Maybe someone else can verify if it works this way but I think after programming any loco on the main layout with your DT400, you could then place the loco on an isolated progamming track and then read back all of the CV values into Decoder Pro. Of course to do this you would have to have a computer in or near the computer room.
It looks like I was wrong about the above method. Instead, you would need to do as Randy Rinker suggests in another thread ( http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/103914.aspx?PageIndex=5 near the bottom of the page). By using the Digitrax PR3 plus a small power supply along with the JMRI software, you could read back CVs on a progamming track separate from the layout. This would be a good work-around for the Empire Builder.
This is not necessarily something you would need to do right away but is another nice upgrade possibility with Digitrax.
My available track size just got bumped from a room to where ever I can find a spot ona bare wall. So my concern about the Zephyr control not walk-around friend is no longer a concern. Neither is having more than one throttle. I will be going with a Zephyr system, and possibly a UT4 throttle just in case my fiance or our new roomie as of tomorrow wants to play alone. The new roomie even offered to help build the stuff so I get the feeling he might want to join in on the fun. My fiance will be easy to plase, all she needs is a controler with forward/reverse switch and throttle control. All she would care about is running it around, she could care less about the switching. My loco's will be from Athearn, Kato, and Atlas so I will even be able to stick with Digitrax for decoders when I can't get a loco in DCC from the get go.