Hey Guys,
i just seem to be alone here and just cant figure out in these days of micro electronics the cost of the better decoders. I look at the loksound at 109 and run away. Tusnami is no better. I am well aware of the supply/demand concept but dont you think we are getting taken for a ride?
Doug
DANSGRANDPAPA...dont you think we are getting taken for a ride?
We're just not mass-market enough to benefit from the economy of scale for electronics. Basically, the first production model of any chip costs a pile of money, tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars. The second one off the line costs maybe 4 cents, and the rest get real cheap. So, you've got to sell a bunch to drive the price down.
It's also a changing and improving market. Older sound decoders like the Soundtraxx LC's are no longer considered acceptable by some modellers, so they're out of market share on those. It took Soundtraxx a long time to get the diesel Tsunamis out, and they probably lost out to other manufacturers just from the delay in production. So, manufacturers have to set a price point where they can recoup the cost of development, produce a certain number at that price, and hope that they will sell enough before the technology makes their chips obsolete.
On the bright side, sound is becoming very common in RTR engines. This is good for everyone, as long as they keep making non-sound models for those who don't want it. Factory sound is cheaper than after-market sound, and the popularity will drive production up and costs down.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Doug,
Trying to compare specialty items like sound decoders to general consumer market electronics will not work. DCC decoders have taken advantage to cell phone technology, but DCC manufacturers have had parts shortages due to cell phone production at times.
General DCC decoder prices have dropped. What was about $60 MSRP in the mid 90's is now about $15 'street price' for a basic decoder.
Sound decoders are still 'new' and the price point has not reached the same 'balance' that motor only decoders have reached. If you want to play with the toys that have all of the 'bells & whistles' - You have to pay a premium for it. It males no difference if you are playing with computers, audio, cars or DCC - it is priced by what the market will bear.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
OK Boys,
points well taken. I will give these premium decoders a whack. I suppose my next fear is the 40 I already have converted with less costly decoders.....dang it. Thanks for the input, this forum is a great place for honest answers...
Doug, I don't think you need to fret over a fleet of older decoders. Most of mine are at least 10 years old and continue to do the job just fine-- by the way, they're MRC and I haven't had a failure yet. It is true that my new PA Wireless will likely push me to explore their limits, as well as look for the best way to introduce sound on the majority of them. Still, this hobby is a work in progress for me and it has helped me learn to be patient
My plan is to convert older DC units first, a few at a time, and then start the upgrade process on the others. I doubt it'll be all done when I'm all done and I don't think that will be anytime soon.
Godd luck.
Doug, look at it this way...just as you find ways to improve your layout by changing and adding things, you can improve your fleet the same way. It wasn't all done yesterday, and tomorrow isn't looking very promising...right? Your older decoders are just fine, if not quite doing what you now want a "decoder" to do. If you are interested in the new sounds and some new feature, you had better have tons of money and maybe several tens of hours to kill to convert them. If you are willing to make it a two year project, you can start with that engine....yeah, that one over there. Enjoy it, decide if the others are good enough, or continue the slow conversion.
I do agree with the rationale of the other responders. We are a teensy microcosm in the world of hobbies. Snowmobiling, RC aircraft, and bowling beat us hands down, just to name some obvious few. So we shouldn't expect big discounts on anything not produced/assembled in large numbers that would find uses in 30M homes in N. America each year. It just isn't going to happen for us. In fact, I am amazed, and darned grateful, that sound decoders aren't twice what a good engine costs!
-Crandell
Decoder sound prices are expensive, more, abusive. Loksound is always at 109,99.-, and so on with other marks. Didn´t they recovered the investment???...mmm....Maybe the money remains in the marketing chain, but, IMMO, the cost of a sound decoder, update, is no more than $10.- So, with additionals costs, $50 to the public will be fine.
No, I don't think we are being taken for a ride. Very few of the hobby manufacturer owners I read and know a little about - and this includes Soundtraxx and Rapido - are living the lifestyles of the rich and famous. The owner of my LHS certainly doesn't make a fortune, even selling at full list. And I don't see the Walters descendants flying corporate jets to the Riviera. IMHO, both Soundtraxx (also makes Blackstone) and Rapido owners are focused on making the very best products they can for the hobby, and are not as worried about how rich they can get at it. And call me naive, but I believe the LHS owner and Walters are more interested in finding ways to economically and efficiently get the products I desire into my hands, despite having to deal with over a thousand mom-and-pop basement manufacturers, than they are in becoming millionaires and billionaires. But my opinion matters not - you think we are being taken for a ride.
So do something about it instead of whining in the forums.
Boycott those products that you think are over-priced. I did that with brass locomotives in the '70s. And where did it get me? I finally broke down and bought a Ken Kidder (low end brass) locomotive nearly 2 years ago used for 4 times what the new would have cost me back when.
Or go into the the model railroad business yourself, and either make obscene profits or undercut your competition by selling at more realistic (in your eyes) prices.
Or support and encourage those who make cheaper items by buying their products.
Or encourage our government to go into the business of price and profit regulation, especially for luxury items like hobby supplies. Obviously, the model railroad market is not working efficiently, and needs a stimulus and/or government oversight.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
Edit: I apologize for being unnecessarily harsh with my comments and opinions.
I understand the frustration with prices that limit one from achieving what they would like to in the hobby. Personally, I would love to switch to DCC. But my DC system works decently for my style of operations, and is paid for. So there are higher priorities at present for my $40/month hobby budget - like saving up for MMI's upcoming HOn3 4-4-0 release.
OTOH, I know the limited return on investment for manufacturers, distributors, and LHSs all too often makes the business a labor of love.
DANSGRANDPAPAi just seem to be alone here and just cant figure out in these days of micro electronics the cost of the better decoders. I look at the loksound at 109 and run away. Tusnami is no better. I am well aware of the supply/demand concept but dont you think we are getting taken for a ride?
Do you know how much a Zero 1 decoder cost 25 years ago? Compared to that, $100 is a bargain for sound today. Plain motor decoders today cost about the same in dollars as a Zero 1 decoder did in it's time, making them a fantastic bargain.
How much sound quality does the average modeler need? Can I blindly identify the difference in sounds between a NYC J3a Hudson and a Pennsy K4 Pacific? Having heard neither prototype run, how could I? Thus, a lower cost sound decoder with several generic steam sounds I can use to differ the sounds of my various steam loco models makes me quite happy. The same is true for first generation diesels. The only diesels I get to hear are very large modern prototypes. Again, a lower cost sound decoder with several generic diesel sounds I can use to differ the sounds of my various first generation diesel loco models keeps me happy.
Another truth to keep in mind is that even premium sound decoders cannot accurately reproduce the sound of the prototype. It is physically impossible for a 1 inch diameter speaker to reproduce the sounds of a 200 ton locomotive. Anyone who has been exposed to the sound of an actual gunshot knows that the little "pop" you hear on a recording does not do justice to the real sound. Yes, sampling the sounds of a K36 will give you decoder sounds closer to the real thing but how would the average modeler who has never heard a real K36 know? It would seem that modelers desiring such specific prototype sounds represent an even smaller chunk of the DCC market than they realize. There definitely remains a market group seeking much lower cost generic sound decoders.
Hornblower
fwright But my opinion matters not - you think we are being taken for a ride. So do something about it instead of whining in the forums.
But my opinion matters not - you think we are being taken for a ride.
geeze-o-pete Fred, no need to apologize, it was a question not a statement. And I must tell you all the decoders i have so far are much more of the mid market range. Now the getting the GOVERNMENT into this is a thought. We could probably only triple the price, delete all the features and the horn/whistle would respond with "YOUR SCREWED!" (in doppler effect of course). They would be self detonating with a sensor so it would only happen in tunnels, in which case Cheney and his shotgun would be sent out to help.....But I digress.
At 40 bucks a month budget you are about where Im at. When DCC came out I vowed to never do it. Then I heard a sound equipped loco. I was doomed, and IMSC they didnt put sound in analog locos at first, could be wrong.
Speaking of decoder cost, I would like to purchase some non-sound decoders for some of my steam engines.
I did a little research on a Lenz LE1014 decoder.Has anyone had any experience with them, and where can I purchase them?
Thanks,TheK4Kid
TheK4Kid Speaking of decoder cost, I would like to purchase some non-sound decoders for some of my steam engines. I did a little research on a Lenz LE1014 decoder.Has anyone had any experience with them, and where can I purchase them? Thanks,TheK4Kid
Haven't used one, but looking at features for comparison, it's pretty simialr to the NCE D13SRJ which you can get for as little as $12 each in a 10 pack. The TCS T-1 offers even more features than the LE1014 and averages at least $1 less (street) compared to the street price of the LE1014.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Hi Randy,
Thanks for the information.Who sells these decoders or are they available direct through NCE.?I am using an NCE Pro Cab system now anyway.
Ed
Best price I've seen on D13SRJ's is from Empire Northern Models. It's a real shjop - besides the web site he has a storefont in upstate New York, not far from where NCE is located. I've purchased severl things from him. If you want BEMF decoders, the lowest cost ones I've seen are TCS T-1's, Tim at Empire Northern has a good price on those as well but when I looked the other day, Ulrich Models was even better. I've used both, and while I really like the BEMF in the TCS, the NCE ones worked just fine for me. It is absolutely the lowest cost decoder around - other than some cheap Bachmann one which is really an old Lenz that doesn't even have a high frequency 'silent' drive. And it's the same price. D13SRJ would be my choice for a mass low-cost fleet conversion without sound.
Randy,
Thanks again for your reply!I am basically freelancing the PRR of the midwest of the late 40's into the late 50's.Most of my locos are steamers with a few early diesels.A majority of them I purchased from IHC and I believe most of them were made by Mehano.
I noticed some of them said "Made in Slovenia".I have a total of 6 BLI engines already equipped with DCC and sound.At this point I have not installed any decoders in any of my engines, but thought I can probably do it myself and save a few bucks..I was laid off in December, so I have been a bit careful with what I spend.It has given me some time to work on my layout and finish a remodelling project on my home, and a few badly needed updates and repairs.I am actively seeking employment but things are rather slow here.I don't plan on converting all of my engines right now, but would like to do a few of them.I have apprioximately 25 steamers.One I particularly am fond of.It is a small steam switcher exactly like one I had when I was a kid that was sold by Lionel.It has a slope back tender, and I would love to convert it to DCC if possible.I found it on Ebay for about 10 dollars, and it runs great, had no damage.OI simply cleaned it up and lubed it, and put it in service.I still have the original body shell from my old one.
I have 2 Proto 2000 2-8-8-2's , and I would like to do at least one of them, and possibly a couple of my IHC steamers.Hopefully they won't require a lot of work.After running a couple of my BLI steamers ( I have 2 each two T1 Duplexes,an M1a and an M1b, and a J1, and and a GG1 I purchased on Ebay, I am not sure I want sound in every engine.I figure I can wait and in the meantime , perhaps prices will come down on them eventually.
The GG1 won't run, but just sets on the track and all the sound functions work.The seller didn't want it back, and totally refunded my money, so basically it was free.Not a bad deal, all I need to do is get it to move, but I am a bit wary of taking it apart, so I thought perhaps I'd send it to BLI for repairs.There is no exterior damage to it, and I can't find anything broken, so I am guessing it got banged around during shipping and something is loose or disconnected somewhere.
I visited another new model railroad site and have been watching some videos there and it has been very enlightening.Perhaps I shouldn't mention the name of it, but the videos are by Joe Fugate.This is where he mentioned the fleet decoders.I had an MRC DCC Prodiigy Express system, but was having occasional problems with it, so I have changed over to an NCE Pro Cab system which I really like!I would have preferred a wireless system, but it was slightly outside my budget..Thanks again for your help Randy, it is very much appreciated!
RETURNING TO THE POST: if PCM sold their Galloping Goose at $ 99.-, with ESU Loksound factory installed, that means that the decoder cost is very low !!! And If BLI sold Blueline at $119,99.- (DC and sound) that means that something rare happend with decoder costs. Now, a Paragon 2 Diesel is sell for 199.- and that is whole engine...don´t you suppose that $ 109.- is to much for a sound deco???
I don't, Doc, but it is clear that you and others do. The point is that for those who invested in their development, they have to make a living. Maybe sound decoders these days are really only made for $5, but they have to be sold for $10 to the plant that makes the engines for BLI for a decent return on investment and to capitalize future plans for sound decoder production...plus any licensing for sound files or other proprietary resources if they have to do that. The $10 decoder gets installed in a new run of 5-5-5 steamers by the factory, plus the speaker and harness (they add costs), and must be marked up to $20, probably more, for them to stay solvent. They pay hand assemblers, even if not much. The factory sells the whole engine to BLI for between $50-70, give or take $20 (I'm not in the business, so I have to guess...) and BLI has to make about $20-100 per engine in order to keep placing (mostly) paid-up orders to the factory for another cycle. They won't be placing many orders if they only make $20 per engine, I can assure you.
As for the low price for the Gallopig Goose, I would guess that the sound decoder cost as much as the model, itself, and that they were flogged at a loss.
Early on, BLI made way too many of each model - they ended up selling at a huge discount just to get rid of the inventory. They have since reduced production levels and haven't really had to have insane blowout sales to get rid of things.
When they sell the same loco with and without sound, such as the Atlas silver (no sound) vs gold (sound), there's usually around $100 price difference. Slightly less than the individual cost of the better sound decoders, indicitive of the manufacturer buying a whole bunch of them - bet if you went to ESU and wanted to order 500 decoder you could get them for les then $109 too.
TheK4Kid The GG1 won't run, but just sets on the track and all the sound functions work.The seller didn't want it back, and totally refunded my money, so basically it was free.Not a bad deal, all I need to do is get it to move, but I am a bit wary of taking it apart, so I thought perhaps I'd send it to BLI for repairs.There is no exterior damage to it, and I can't find anything broken, so I am guessing it got banged around during shipping and something is loose or disconnected somewhere. I visited another new model railroad site and have been watching some videos there and it has been very enlightening.Perhaps I shouldn't mention the name of it, but the videos are by Joe Fugate.This is where he mentioned the fleet decoders.I had an MRC DCC Prodiigy Express system, but was having occasional problems with it, so I have changed over to an NCE Pro Cab system which I really like!I would have preferred a wireless system, but it was slightly outside my budget..Thanks again for your help Randy, it is very much appreciated! Ed
Have you tried resetting the GG-1? It may be in 'disconnect' where the sounds change with the throttle but the power is shut off to the motor. I think it's a double click of F6 to get out of it - check the QSI manual. The biggest problem is figuring out what a 'double click' is for the function - it means turn it on, then off, then on, then off again - so FOUR presses of the F6 button, not 2.
Let's not forget that the under $15 non-sound decoder eventually became a reality. Granted, most of these are bare bones 2 function decoders but several are of very good quality. What I'd like to see is generic steam or diesel sounds added to one of these bare bones decoders. Synthesized or generic sound samples that don't require licensing could be used to keep the price as low as possible. With such an approach, wouldn't a sound decoder with a retail price around $30 be possible? With my own limited budget, I would much rather equip three of my locos with low cost generic sound decoders than pay for one decoder with prototype specific sounds that I can't identify the accuracy of anyway!
The DCC industry seems to have borrowed a page from the computer industry bible that seems to say, "The $50 computer shall never be built! Thou shalt continue to upgrade and add features to all computers to maintain a minimum price of at least $500!" Do we really need to continually add dozens of functions, features and prototypical sound samples to all of our DCC decoders? For some, yes. For many others, give us a low cost alternative!
Just an added thought! Standard Hobby sells the Digitrax DH123D for $15.99. They also sell the MRC Sounder #1662 (diesel sounds), #1665 (diesel sounds) and #1666 (steam sounds) for $25.99 each. Put the DH123D and Sounder together and I've got a generic DCC sound decoder for $42. I've also noticed that Lenz and TCS have bumped their basic decoder prices back up by adding functions and features to their original 2 function, under $15 designs. Now I know that most members of this forum will blast MRC decoders but I've had nothing but good results with the #1629 Steam Sound Decoders I installed in my small fleet of MDC 2-6-2 Prarie loco kits.
doc managoRETURNING TO THE POST: if PCM sold their Galloping Goose at $ 99.-, with ESU Loksound factory installed, that means that the decoder cost is very low !!! And If BLI sold Blueline at $119,99.- (DC and sound) that means that something rare happend with decoder costs. Now, a Paragon 2 Diesel is sell for 199.- and that is whole engine...don´t you suppose that $ 109.- is to much for a sound deco???
Well, if you bought 5 or 10 thousand decoders, you too can get that price.
Remember, they will not be packaged in a nice static bag with a label. You'll just get a tote full of them.
No electronics manufacturer could afford to stay in business if he paid the same prices as you pay at RadioShack. What you pay $2 for, they buy for a nickel. Same goes for that jungle IC in a television. In the replacement parts channel they are $200. When you buy 100,000 of them, they are $5 each.
The decoder you buy at the local hobby shop travels a different path, and as such, has a price that reflects it.
hornblower How much sound quality does the average modeler need? Can I blindly identify the difference in sounds between a NYC J3a Hudson and a Pennsy K4 Pacific? Having heard neither prototype run, how could I? Thus, a lower cost sound decoder with several generic steam sounds I can use to differ the sounds of my various steam loco models makes me quite happy. The same is true for first generation diesels. The only diesels I get to hear are very large modern prototypes. Again, a lower cost sound decoder with several generic diesel sounds I can use to differ the sounds of my various first generation diesel loco models keeps me happy.
I'm with you on that one! I only have one sound decoder (generic MRC) and I'm pretty happy with it. I doubt anyone that looks at my layout would know the difference between steam sound and diesel!Doesn't Soundtraxx still make their mid quality sound decoders?http://www.litchfieldstation.com/xcart/home.php?cat=186
doc manago Decoder sound prices are expensive, more, abusive. Loksound is always at 109,99.-, and so on with other marks. Didn´t they recovered the investment???...mmm....Maybe the money remains in the marketing chain, but, IMMO, the cost of a sound decoder, update, is no more than $10.- So, with additionals costs, $50 to the public will be fine.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
rrinkerTheK4Kid The GG1 won't run, but just sets on the track and all the sound functions work.The seller didn't want it back, and totally refunded my money, so basically it was free.Not a bad deal, all I need to do is get it to move, but I am a bit wary of taking it apart, so I thought perhaps I'd send it to BLI for repairs.There is no exterior damage to it, and I can't find anything broken, so I am guessing it got banged around during shipping and something is loose or disconnected somewhere. I visited another new model railroad site and have been watching some videos there and it has been very enlightening.Perhaps I shouldn't mention the name of it, but the videos are by Joe Fugate.This is where he mentioned the fleet decoders.I had an MRC DCC Prodiigy Express system, but was having occasional problems with it, so I have changed over to an NCE Pro Cab system which I really like!I would have preferred a wireless system, but it was slightly outside my budget..Thanks again for your help Randy, it is very much appreciated! Ed Have you tried resetting the GG-1? It may be in 'disconnect' where the sounds change with the throttle but the power is shut off to the motor. I think it's a double click of F6 to get out of it - check the QSI manual. The biggest problem is figuring out what a 'double click' is for the function - it means turn it on, then off, then on, then off again - so FOUR presses of the F6 button, not 2. --Randy Randy, I gave it a try. But the problem is the motors( 2 of them) run insidethe GG1, but there is no tractive effort to the track. I am suspecting a broken gear or drive line part.I have decided to send it to BLI for repair. Ed
I gave it a try. But the problem is the motors( 2 of them) run insidethe GG1, but there is no tractive effort to the track. I am suspecting a broken gear or drive line part.I have decided to send it to BLI for repair.
DANSGRANDPAPAyou think we are getting taken for a ride? Doug
you think we are getting taken for a ride?
I will say yes. I think the price of nearly all MRR stuff is over inflated. Oh well, that does not seem to stop me from buying, until recently, I ran out of play money till Oct.
Peter