Time to bring back some attention to DC. I'm a DC user, my layout will be an around the wall style in a 11 1/2 by 10 foot room going around 3 walls and a 8x4 or 8x3 foot penninsula. The door opens up towards one wall and my gf needs some space for shelf storage so I can't go around all 4. I have an MRC Tech II power pack.
Question 1: Will the one 14VDC/18VAC power pack be enough power to run maximum 2 trains doulbe headed around this size layout?
Question 2: How does DC cab control work?
Question 3: Where can I get DC cab control, or is it easy enough to make my own walk-around throttle?
Question 4: How many power blocks, or power districts which ever they are called, should I use? Would one for each leg and one for the penninsula work ok?
I might be starting the frame construction pretty soon, which would be broke up into modules, using open-grid type 1x4 framing, and 1/2 inch plywood. I'm not trying to make it portable, just make it so if it ever needs to get moved it can be done with little to no damage to scenery and track. I have seen things for cab control but they were never less than 100 dollars. I would prefer to have something that uses my original power pack for power, otherwise with the money invested I could have just went DCC with a nice local deal on a NCE Power Cab. I'm trying to do all this on a budget, partly because that's what I have to work with, and party for proof positive that you don't have to have money like Rod Stewart to have a good sized nice layout.
Answer 1. You'll need one power pack for each train that you wish to run since if you run two trains off one power pack, they will be running at the same time.
Answer 2. Cab control basically is run from the power pack. Probably the easiest way to say it is that with DC cab control, the voltage going to the rails is controlled by the power pack. With DCC, the voltage going to the rails is constant, and the amount going through the motor of the locomotives (which determines the speed) is controlled by the receivers in the locomotives.
Answer 3. If you have a regular power pack, which you mentioned, you have DC cab control. There are different places that have walk-around throttles, both wired and wireless.
Answer 4. The number of blocks that you would need depends on your track plan and how you wish to operate the layout.
Kevin
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MILW-RODR I have an MRC Tech II power pack. Question 1: Will the one 14VDC/18VAC power pack be enough power to run maximum 2 trains doulbe headed around this size layout? Question 2: How does DC cab control work? Question 3: Where can I get DC cab control, or is it easy enough to make my own walk-around throttle? Question 4: How many power blocks, or power districts which ever they are called, should I use? Would one for each leg and one for the penninsula work ok?
I have an MRC Tech II power pack.
1) DC cab control and DCC work on very different architectures. DC cab control provides one throttle (cab or power pack) for each train that will be running simultaneously. Normal expectation is that there is an operator for each train. Ideally (simplifies wiring), each DC cab is totally separate - that is it plugs into the wall separately from the others. Since there is one cab per train, the cab only has to have enough power to run the heaviest train load. In HO, that might be as much as 1.5 amps for a double-headed passenger train. Your Tech II power pack will do quite nicely as one of the cabs, but you will need a second for the second train.
Because of the wiring and switches needed to select which block ties to which cab, the number of cabs is usually pre-planned, and not easily altered. Wiring for 2 cabs is relatively simple, because simple 2 position toggle switches can be used for block controls. More than 2 cabs gets somewhat more complex and expensive, depending on the type of block selectors chosen. Often, for more than 2 cabs, rotary switches with a position for each cab are used. These are not as easy to find as they used to be.
DCC uses a single computer (command station) to send commands to decoders in each locomotive, no matter where it is on the layout. The booster provides the power to the track under the control of the command station. The booster(s, there can be more than one) have to enough power for every locomotive and other load that will be running simultaneously in the area of the layout powered by that booster.
2) See #1.
3) DC cabs can be built from components fairly easily. Circuits and parts lists can be found by Googling DC throttles. Or you can buy commercial power packs or throttles for each cab you want to add.
4) Power blocks or power districts are used in DCC, with a booster for each power district.
Again, DC uses one cab for each train that is running. So you will need a second cab to run your second train. ($60 if you buy one, $20 if you build one) And you will need an SPDT toggle switch rated at 1 amp or better for each block. You will want at least 8 blocks (and probably more - perhaps double - are desirable) if running 2 trains simultnaeously to give each train a block to move into without stopping. The toggles and extra wiring are probably another $20-$30, all told.
In DC cab control, each cab is connected to blocks of track - approximately a train length long on a small layout. In one of the selected blocks will be the train that that cab is controlling. If 2 trains are being controlled by the same cab, there is not independent control of speed or direction. Both trains will move in the same direction at the speed the selected voltage gives each train. That is why it is important that each cab only control one train at a time. To do this, the block train A is in, and the block train A is getting ready to go into are selected for Cab A. Blocks not being used by Train A are turned off, or given to Cab B and Train B. On a small layout with 2 trains moving at a good clip, transferring blocks back and forth between the cabs becomes an exercise in toggle flipping.
That last scenario is where DCC shines. Because the DCC throttle selects the engine it is controlling directly (rather than indirectly controlling the locomotive through the blocks), no block toggles or flipping is necessary. To gain the equivalent capablility with DCC as the 2 cab DC system (but without the block toggle hassles and wiring), you would need your NCE power cab plus one add-on throttle for a total of around $220. Plus a decoder per locomotive at $20 each. And you would gain all the extra features of DCC, and a handheld throttle form factor.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
MILW-RODRQuestion 1: Will the one 14VDC/18VAC power pack be enough power to run maximum 2 trains doulbe headed around this size layout?
The voltage is enough. But the thing you want to look at is the volt-amps rating. This is how much power the pack can put out.
MILW-RODR Question 2: How does DC cab control work?
By taking an input voltage and running through some sort of linear resistor used as a gain control on a transistor circuit.
MILW-RODR Question 3: Where can I get DC cab control, or is it easy enough to make my own walk-around throttle?
Anywhere. Just google it. Or contact Atlantic Coast Line. If you never did soldiering with electronic components, save yourself some headaches and buy a premade one.
MILW-RODRQuestion 4: How many power blocks, or power districts which ever they are called, should I use? Would one for each leg and one for the penninsula work ok?
That's a sticky thicket of a loaded question based on your layout design. You could technically get away with 1 block on a SIMPLE LAYOUT, IF you only run 1 train at a time and power by the points. With two trains, a minimum 3 is required for point to point, (1 section buffer) and it helps to power by the points on turnouts if you want the trains in the same block (one running, one on passing siding, sitting). If it's a loop, minimum of 4 blocks are required.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
MILW-RODR,
MILW-RODR Question 1: Will the one 14VDC/18VAC power pack be enough power to run maximum 2 trains doulbe headed around this size layout?
Is the power pack you have a single or a dual pack? If it is a single, it will run one train double or triple headed and will serve as one throttle in your cab control system. If it is a dual it should handle two trains but may introduce some other wiring concerns.
MILW-RODRQuestion 2: How does DC cab control work?
There is no short simple or single answer to this. Cab control is a concept that must be applied to a specific track plan to meet a list of specific operational goals.
The following books are recommended to fully understand cab control from both a wiring and operational standpoint:
"Electrical Handbook for Model Railroads - Vol 1 & 2" - by Paul Mallery
"Operation Handbook for Model Railroads" - by Paul Mallery
These books will explain, with diagrams and examples, both simple and advanced cab control systems and concepts.
If you want a wireless cab control for DC, Aristo Craft makes the Train Engineer and RCS makes a trackside reciever for their wireless controller. Either will provide good control and reliable wireless operation. One wireless throttle combined with the one power pack you have could make a very nice system for a layout of the size you discribe. The Aristo Train Engineer can be ppurchased for about $150 and you will need a seperate power supply for it which can be home made or commercial ones need not cost more than about $20.00 - Even an old inexpensive train set power pack will work as a power supply for the Train Engineer or RCS systems.
MILW-RODR Question 4: How many power blocks, or power districts which ever they are called, should I use? Would one for each leg and one for the penninsula work ok?
The term best used is "electrical section", or "section" for short. Many call them "blocks" but that is really a signaling term. On a DC cab control system with signals, the signal blocks and the electrical sections will not have the same boundries, so it is better to keep the terms seperate.
You should understand that what many people say about constant "toggle flipping" etc, does not have to be true. Cab control systems can be designed for very easy operation and very minimal control input. In fact some layouts can be configured so that simply routing the turnouts to the desired route does virtually all the "toggle flipping" automaticly. And when used with a wireless throttle like the Train Engineer, complete walk around flexibility can be achieved. But, there is no one answer, each layout and desired operational scheme is different.
You should first detemine how you want to operate you layout, then with the help of the books I have referenced or someone with experiance in designing DC layout controls, select the wiring scheme that is best for you.
If you have access to back issues of MR, there is a great series of articles spread over several months of 1973 about MZL control by Ed Ravenscroft. This too is an excelent example of how DC wiring can be made very easy to operate, eliminating almost all of the "toggle flipping".
Sheldon
Well I feel kind of bad now. Got up early this morning and couldn't fall back to sleep so I started doodling my layout idea, ended up adding an industry or two, a few off layout spots, and came to realize that DC wouldn't work. I would be operating it on my own 98-99% of the time, but I ended up designing it all so I could have 3 operators working at once. This is what kind of killed the DC cab control. Could have it end up running a through freight and two sepperate local freights all at once. If I didn't plan on ever having an operating session it would be no big deal, all I would have to do make the Tech II somewhat portable. And plus, from the sounds, if I did the cab control properly I would end up spending more money than if I just bought a Digitrax Zephyr from the LTS, which is asking almost MSRP price for it. It will come down to shipping prices because places like trainworld have the Zephry for around 150-160, my LTS wants like 170, plus tax. I already plan on having manual turnouts and manual uncoupling to keep it interesting, I think having to watch where the train is while doing all this and then having to flip switches to control trains would end up being too much to do at once. I have to post it yet, but look for my post tittled "My layout plan/operating idea" under layouts forum. It will explain the layout more and the planned operating session.
My layout is roughly the same size as yours. I have benchwork up, track laid, and trains running on plain DC. In fact I have an MRC Tech II power pack. It has no trouble powering a four engine ABBA diesel lashup, all units powered.
DC cab control divides the track into convenient blocks and provides switching to connect each block to different power packs. The power packs are called "cabs". Readily available double pole double throw toggle switches permit a two cab control system. You wire the track to the center terminals of the toggle and the two cabs to the side contacts. Throw the toggle left and cab A has control. Throw the toggle right and cab B has control. Put the toggle in the center off position and remove all power from the block, allowing you to put locomotives on sidings and have them stay put while you run on the main line. More than two cabs requires switches with more than two throws. These are harder to find but the principle is the same.
Convenient blocks on my layout are every spur track, both passing sidings, and the single track main. My block control toggles are on the layout fascia located as close to the track block as possible, with walk around control in mind.
Walk around DC throttles are more of a stretch. Right now I merely have some slack in to wires from the Tech II, sufficient for the moment. I looked in the Walther's book and didn't see anything I wanted to spend money on. I'm planning on a homebrew walk around throttle, sometime after I get the scenery done. There are plenty of plans for such on the internet, and as home brew electronics projects go, it's not a hard project.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
From all the posts I'm starting to think DC cab control was not the right thing I was reffering too. I was talking about a walk-around throttle for DC, I though cab control was the same thing. But things change as quickly, well as quickly as I get bored and look into past MR issues! Last night I was flipping through the March issue of MR to look at something, ended up giving the article on the CP Slocan Lake Division. I realized with one tweek to the dimensions on the leg that holds the rail barge scene, it would fit in the spare room and still be able to use the door, that's where the tweek comes in. It would be blocking the closet but baaah, if I went through that back and room and stuck to a plan of keeping only what I needed, the few things could be stored in 1 or 2 larger Rubbermaid bins and, well kept underneath the layout! And I also just thought of another way to do it that would fit the room even better, and by taking the hanging doors off the closet it would leave it open and make it for easy access to the other side of a 4x8 sheet with out having to murder up the layout to fit in an access hatch. But back to the thing now I might end up going back to running straight DC, but up-scaling to HO. My biggest hold back right now is the investement I have put into the n scale stuff. My collections only 1 engine and 11 cars so it's not something that's very big to let drift off into the sunset, but the rather small 12 piece collection has a rather larger value of almost 200 bucks. Quite a bit to be just tossing to the side and starting over from scratch. But I liked that CP Slocan Lake layout so much. Like I said with the exception of the one leg length which would only have to be shortened up a few feet, all I would have to do is move the hidden track closer to the edge and make the track on the table top portion connect to make a return loop. I wouldn't mind modeling in some grade and adding hills but nothing as complicated as getting a train through a tunnel in a hill. I already checked and I could even back date first gen diesels for less than 100 bucks from the LTS. They had quite a few nice looking HH600/660's and H10-44's. Also had some of the bigger diesels I like, like GP30's, 35's, Alco C420's, even a few SD's, and GP7/9's in about 3 different versions. What is a GP7/9 Phase III anyways?
I have a 4x 9 1/2 layout with a 22 inch outer oval and a 18 inch inner oval
There is a crossover both ways at the bottom on the straights
I am running 2 trains 2 power supplies and 4 blocks with no problem
51% share holder in the ME&O ( Wife owns the other 49% )
ME&O
Kalmbach Books HO Railroad (From Set to Scenery) has a complete guide on building a cab control. Heres a view of my old cab for my 4 x 8 its now DCC.
Each throttle controls one train
Your cab controls which throttle is to be used and what section has power. This cab also has power switch controls for switching machines.
That book will help you with all the questions on building a cab. DCC would be the choice. I finally made the switch here a couple of months ago. I had 25+ years running DC cab control, and would stick to DCC for now on.
4x8 are fun too!!! RussellRail
Just two problems with the latest rounds of posts. 1, the layout will be an around-the-walls type in a room 10 x 11.5 feet, a cab and control located in a central spot isn't going to cut it. I want to be as physically involved as possible so all turn-outs accept those not with in reach will be manual, having to run over to the other side of the layout to switch a turn out then run back over to operate the train won't do it. 2, I have to do this fairly cheap. A DCC system would not be anymore expensive than if I stuck with n scale, but sound decoders for N scale can run 100 bucks, I would be afraid to see what HO would run. And finally, the biggest reason I decided to switch to HO is because my LTS has some pretty good deals on HO stock. Cars for around 15 bucks, plenty of engines for less than a 100, heck less than 90. I could have a nice little roster of a diesel switcher, a road switcher, and even a steamy for about the same price of their DCC/sound HO engines. I'd rather spend 300 bucks and get 3 engines for DC than spend the same amount and get 1 engine. Plus it is a decent size layout but the actual trackage isn't that big, neither is the need, so only one engine will be run at a time. I just like to have a nice stock pile of engines/cars so I don't have to run the same stuff all the time every time. I like variety. And then if I did go with DCC, well that's at least 170 for a Digitrax Zephry and then my Tech II will more or less go to waste. It will really come down to how much my LTS is asking for sound decoders.
But to be honest the DCC still holds a leverage over DC. Mostly because of real affects like braking/momentum, which I could easily do buy spending another 60 bucks and getting a Tech 4 power pack, but I'm not sure I would want a seperate control in one hand just for sound.
RRTrainman Kalmbach Books HO Railroad (From Set to Scenery) has a complete guide on building a cab control. Heres a view of my old cab for my 4 x 8 its now DCC. Each throttle controls one train Your cab controls which throttle is to be used and what section has power. This cab also has power switch controls for switching machines. That book will help you with all the questions on building a cab. DCC would be the choice. I finally made the switch here a couple of months ago. I had 25+ years running DC cab control, and would stick to DCC for now on.
I want that dual throttle power pack!! I know MRC makes one know but I want a Tech II so it matches the one I have now. So I know I’m getting this right in that cab control is essentially a ’cab’, or rather an area, that has all the controls for the layout. Meaning throttle, turn out switches, and block routing. I want to run a commuter service through the layout. It’s a single main line so any freight locos that are workin the area have to wait, which I like because that’s prototypical. If I did this could I have the main line split into two blocks so my passenger train can sit on the main line and other locos still cross on it, and then put all the track say north of the mainlin on one block and all the track south of the mainline on another block? For a total of 4 blocks? I also plan on having a bi level shelf layout so the upper shelf will have to be on a block, assuming I am working with only one throttle. I know if I can get another Tech II throttle I can just wire the second throttle to the upper level and use the second power pack on the lower level. And what should I use for switches to control the blocks? I know some switches are not rated for conitous power. I really like the Circuitron mini toggle switches I thought maybe use them for the turn out controls and then use maybe something like a Miniatroncis rotary switch to control power blocks.
MILW-RODRI want that dual throttle power pack!! I know MRC makes one know but I want a Tech II so it matches the one I have now.
This sounds like a job for eBay!
Cape Vincent Southern Railroad
HO scale Horseshoe Curve in 5’x10’
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A simple way to explain the diference between DC and DCC, with DC you run the track and with DCC you run the train. My layouts have all been around the walls with walk around trhottles. I started with DC, using two MRC20 power packs. With only two DC throttles I controled all of my blocks with DPDT switches. It worked OK. The problem is if you ever want to move beyond two DC throttles, the DPDT switches need to be replaced with rotary swithches and a lot more wire. When I started adding up the wire and switches for DC block control, I decided to go DCC. I started with a Digitrax Super Chief, but a Digitrax Zepher is a good inexpensive way to get into DCC. Even with a small layout DCC enhances operations. You can watch your train and not worry about electrical blocks. I am primarily a "lone wolf" modeler, but I like to orbit multiple trains onthe main while I am switching the yard. When I do have visitors it is easire for them to operate as they don't have to worry about operating electrical blocks.
Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.