Response from QSI's management regarding Turbo in EMD 2nd Gen.

[AntonioFP45]

March 4, 2009

HI guys

Thanks for your responses on the previous related thread.  On the QSI Yahoo group site, I commented my concerns regarding the lack of a turbocharger sound for the 2nd Gen EMD units equipped with 645E3 power systems. That would be the GP40, GP40-2, GP39, SD39, SD40, SD40-2, SD40T-2, F40PH, and all related 16 cylinder systems. Same for the 20 cylinder 45 class.   As Steve recommended on the previous thread, I installed the Q2 Firmware upgrade menu and played the sound samples.  Still, no turbo sound for the mentioned units.

Here is the response from QSI:

Tony,

This is "QSI Management" responding <g>

Thank you for your support of our products!

Of course - QSI tries pretty hard to be prototypically accurate.
Sometimes the sounds are completely accurate. Sometimes they are the
best we can get or represent the best knowledge we had at the time.

Regarding turbo specifically:
Sometimes engine manufacturers explicitly ask us to make the motor
have turbo sounds by default. Sometimes they don't want turbo.
Sometimes they have it right and sometimes not. This is why QSI made
the turbo charger a separate sound (THAT was not easy to get) and let
the customer set it as they wish (ON/OFF or something in-between <g>)
It is settable from the "Individual Sounds" panel.

Here's a challenge for you guys (and gals): when you hear that a
manufacturer we service is coming out with a locomotive - by all means
please discuss it here including any details that may help QSI and the
loco manufacturer know what it did and what it sounded like. In many
cases you folks has an amazing depth of knowledge about specific
engines. We can all benefit from this. It doesn't necessarily mean
that the loco will be exactly like what is said here - but, I assure
you that it will help us all get it right.

You probably wonder if I read this QSI-group anymore. I read every
post every day. I'm pretty sure everyone at QSI does as well.

Again, Tony - thank you for the input; we ARE listening.

-Pat Quinn
QSI 

[AntonioFP45]

 Was good to see that QSI does take an interest in our input.  Here is what I wrote back to Mr. Quinn:

 

Hello Pat,

Thank you very much for responding and for willing to read input. I
spent over an hour listening to your sound samples on the Q2 sound
scheme list and noticed the following regarding the turbochargers for
EMD.

1. I played sound schemes 311 and 319, which has the turbo sound
listed for EMD 567 equipped diesels produced after the GP20. The
turbo sound is clearly audible.

2. Sound scheme numbers 363, 364, 365, 366. Locomotives: GP40,
GP50, SD40, SD50. Engine listed: EMD 645E.

In playing each scheme I turned down all of the slide bars except for
the turbo. The sound produced isn't the EMD turbo. Please listen
carefully to it. It sounds more like a roots-blown EMD diesel, like
the version used for the GP38/GP38-2.

I hope I'm not violating any rules by posting the following. Please
listen to these two youtube vid clips.

EMD GP38 Non-turbo (roots blower)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CpuRmD02yQ or go to YouTube and type
in the search bar: "EMD idle".

EMD GP40-2W (turbocharger equipped)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqzSJOnW9-c or type in the search bar:
"Listen to that whining Turbo!"

Notice the difference? 

 Mr. Quinn hasn't responded yet, but as soon as he does, I will post his response here.  Overall, I enjoyed sampling the Q2 sounds that can be uploaded into the "Revolution" decoder.  I realize that it costs the manufacturer money, but I hope that QSI can get the turbo-645 sound correct.

[AntonioFP45]

July 9 - Good news

QSI has delivered a 2nd gen turbocharged EMD prime mover sound scheme, thanks to the help of the Florida East Coast Railway.  Here's the story:   http://qsisolutions.com/news/fec-recording-061709.html

The file numbers that have been updated with the turbo EMD sounds are:

1050-331 THRU 1050-336

1050-363 THRU  1050-366

Additionally,

1050-333 has a sweet sounding Nathan P3 horn. 

1050-334 has a very brassy Nathan P5 horn that sounds good too.

So glad to see that QSI is making a good effort. 

 

 

 

 

. The sound files on QSI

[rrinker]

2 Things:

 1. Great to see that they actually listn and go out and fix things that aren't correct

 2. You actually CAN fix things because you can change the sounds, unlike some sound decoders tha are stuck with whatever sounds are already in them.

 

                          --Randy

 

[AntonioFP45]

davidmbedard

 I still wouldnt hold my breath.  QSI tends to short cut every sound file they put out there. 

David B

 

David,

Have you downloaded the files I mentioned above and listened to them yet? 

In case you don't have it, download the Q2 software programmer:

http://qsisolutions.com/downloads/index.html

 

and then download the files so you can hear all of the available sound schemes, including the updated ones.

 http://qsisolutions.com/products/techinfo/revolution/q-revo_codes_diesel.html

 

 

 

[AntonioFP45]

davidmbedard

 You see, that is where you are wrong.  You CANNOT listen to them beyond idle anymore in the programmer.  You actually have to upload the sound file to a Revolution BEFORE you know what it sounds like.  Because that process takes about 10 minutes, I don't have that time to waste with my customers anymore.

Before you were able listen to the motor rev up and down on the programmer.   My customers could then easily choose what they wanted.  Now, they have to wait 10 minutes before they say no....and then I have to try the next sound file....a huge hassle.

Sorry, QSI has it wrong again.  Also, QSI, where are my steam files you promised me over a year ago?  Because of these issues, I have trouble recommending this decoder to anyone.

David B

David, I've been playing with the new sounds on the Q2 programmer.  I've been revving the prime mover sounds up and down with no problem.  Am I missing or misunderstanding something here? 

[AntonioFP45]

David,

"Nothing like an SD40"? 

I have to disagree.  I spent a great deal of of time around prototype EMDs, especially 2nd generation units. I still have my personal tape recordings dating back to the late 70s.  The QSI EMD upgrade, imho, sounds authentic.  Remember, these files were recorded from prototype 645 series equipped Florida East Coast Railroad units, a number of which reportedly have received mechanical rebuilds and updates. So the character of certain prime mover sounds may be altered slightly. I've seen this first hand on diesel transit buses and trucks.  If that's the case, it wouldn't be QSI's fault and it would still be prototypical. 

From what I've read before in TRAINS magazine, a good number of Canadian EMDs have had turbochargers modified or even removed.  Could it be that these are the units you're using as a comparative benchmark. 

Yes, I've heard the the Diesel Tsunamis before and was impressed.  I'm especially impressed with the GE sound scheme, as the famous "chug" is captured well.  I am disappointed in the Tsunami "pop off" which is a quick spurt., On many older prototype diesel locomotives the pop off is loud and actually lasts a few seconds..

You already know that the Tsunamis are a "packaged" item.  You can't upload anything into them and it is difficult to synchronize engine rpms with the locomotive's movements.  Have you had success in this area?  I do plan on buying at least one Tsunami (for my Genesis FP45)  as well as a several QSI Revolutions (for my P2K E-units).  

IMHO, QSI is making a hard effort to please its customers and so far these latest updates are a good step in the right direction. 

 

 

 

 

[AntonioFP45]

 Quote from David-If you put a QSI-equipped SD40 beside a Tsunami-equipped SD40, I have to say that the Tsunami wins hands down on ALL accounts.

You know that's not a fair comparison.  The BLI SD40 was released a few years back with onboard sound.  QSI was summarily chewed out by many modelers regarding the sound scheme.  The latest update, which sounds far better, is for the aftermarket decoders including the Revolution.  QSI aftermarket decoders were not available back then.

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Quote from David -   (and sounds nothing like an actual startup sequence) then they add a turbo whistle over top of it when the motor reaches idle.

I listened to file 331 carefully. The turbocharger and prime mover sound like they're properly synchronized.

What do you base your comment on? 2nd gen EMDs in top or well maintained condition start-up up with a faster idle, then slow down a few seconds later.  However, as 2nd gen EMDs age, the electrical circuit that controls that feature stops working if shop forces don't maintain it.  Today many older EMD units startup without the quick "idle up and down" sequence and go  directly to idle mode. Though disappearing quickly we still get plenty of old EMDs here in CSX territory.

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Quote from David - So, I invite those who are still reading this post to go onto youtube and search for sounds from Sd40s and other units with the 645.  Then listen to the Soundtraxx recordings and make your own decisions.    -  

Glad you mentioned that as you reminded me of something.......I commend Soundtraxx for introducing additional diesel horns. It's one of the suggestions me and several other modelers conveyed to them more than once.......and they did listen.  However, the horn recordings that Soundtraxx had back in 2003 are the same ones they're offering now!  Compare Soundtraxx's M5 horn to QSIs. The Soundtraxx M5 recording sounds very "foggy" compared to the QSI version. The QSI M5 is very melodic.   Do the same with the K3, the K5LA and the Leslie and WABCO honkers.   Soundtraxx and QSI introduced the P3 and P5 more recently.  QSI's horn recordings are the clear winner in this area.   

This is an example where SOUNDTRAXX doesn't wind hands down as you indicate above.

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Quote from David - On the other hand, the QSI has been a lack-luster product and the customer respose has been reflectant to that.  

OK, but you should point out that its "your customers".  QSI, LokSound, Soundtraxx, and Digitraxx sound decoder lines EACH have some very good points about them as well as some areas that could be better.   So far, the QSI Revolution has been getting mostly positive reviews from hobby shops and online forums here in the southeastern U.S.  

To be fair and with all due respect, it's YOUR OPINION that it's been a lack-luster product.  My concern is that you're posts come across as if coming from an authority figure with an extensive technical background. When we make these summations, imho, we should state that it is personal opinion.

I remember a thread in which you disputed the value of the infinite baffle for some sound equipped models, yet I have seen units with infinite baffles that sound loud and very crisp. 

Many modelers read our threads and some make purchase decisons based on some of the comments on this forum, so we are actually in the position of influencing potential customers.

My point:  Paraphrasing the Spiderman movie:  "With power comes responsibility"

I certainly make an effort to convey that I'm a hardcore railfan and long time modeler but by no means an electronics expert.

BTW:  I have seen Tsunami equipped diesels in action.  Yes, they were impressive, but as I stated above I did notice the short comings too.

 

[AntonioFP45]

Wow! Relax David.  No need to take my above responses as attacks..

1.  Quote from David:  "There is no way what you heard........."  David, .now that is presumptous of you stating that you know what I heard. 

I did hear Diesel Tsumani equipped HO units with excellent programming and baffled speaker setups that were installed by an experienced computer electronics professional who puts on DCC clinics for a prototype modelers group.  The crisp sounds were impressive.  My point was simply that Tsunami has its shortcomings as well, which I've already pointed out.  If you look at my posts on other threads, I've stated that as far as sound the Diesel Tsunami was excellent, overall..    

2. What I was attempting to convey was that, imho, you were brick slamming the Revolution's short comings while I posted QSI's efforts in making sound scheme upgrades.  You scarcely mentioned the Revolution's positive points while praising the Tsunami's good qualities with little mention of its shortcomings.  You were virtually equating the Revolution with an MRC sound decoder which would be like comparing a Toyota Camry to a Ford Taurus.

3.  Quote from David:  At least get the quote right......   Uh, I was "paraphrasing". I have the movie and  I knew the exact quote but I was implying that we as forum members have "some" power of influence with newbies on decisions to purchase model railroad products.  Not "great" power.  I thought you might have picked up on that.

 4.  Regarding price:  I did a comparison.  Here in my railroading neck of the woods the Revolutions are priced cheaper than Tsunami.

5. Quote from David:    Here is where I have a problem with this post.  Why are you being so judgmental with my posts?  Are my posts not informative and helpful?  Have I not helped YOU in the past?  Have I not gone out of my way to take care of people's issues?  Am I not a professional installer?  Have I not respected the forum rules in regards to selling my services (unlike others)?  Have I not actually bought and used multiples of the products we are discussing here?  Why cannot I give my opinion without first qualifying that it my opinion?  Why do I have to qualify as such?  Do I not live CPR's SD40 central (Calgary, Alberta)?  Come on, man, throw me a bone here.  I grew up by sitting by the southern mainline and watching countless strings of SD40/-2s go by.  Perhaps if you are in my neck of the woods one day, I can change your opinion of me.  

David, we as modelers can have a disagreement without having to beat your chest like Tarzan as in your above paragraph..  I'm just discussing, not arguing.  No need to throw you a bone. I could sit at a table with you or any other modeler over a couple of glasses of lemonade or ginger ale, have this type of disagreement.......then move on to something else, still in a good mood..    

 

[AntonioFP45]

 OK David, now I've been made aware by someone who read this thread as to what may be going on...........

I was wondering why your responses were on the hard-charging side. "It could be" that it was because some of your customers likely view the threads on this forum, so you immedetly went into defense mode as you might have been concerned that your credibility was being challenged.  . Well, if this is the case, it wasn't my intent to put you down. .

But remember..........re-read your replies on page one.  You were the one that first engaged with this comment: -  I still wouldnt hold my breath.  QSI tends to short cut every sound file they put out there.   Notice that you expressed that in a "blanket statement" form. It "seemed" like an attempt to slam QSI and divert attention towards Soundtraxx.

After a back and forth posting discussion between us, you stated that I was trying to discredit you and was questioning "your expertise".   That was not my intent. 

By the way, this comment caught my attention:  -Why cannot I give my opinion without first qualifying that it my opinion?  Why do I have to qualify as such?  

OK if it's about something of financial significance, why not?  A lot of our forum brethren often include, "imho" when providing feedback on expensive model railroad related products..

However, David, if your expertise is ever questioned, what's the big deal?    I spent 15 years working in the transit industry and have been an industrial-tech instructor for the past 11 years.  I'm a believer in presenting a down-to-earth, humble attitude if and when my credentials are questioned:   No big deal.  I learned from wise old timers years ago that going to hyper-defense mode when questioned or challenged in discussions makes one appear insecure, wheras keeping cool connotes confidence and a positive image of oneself.    I must admit that this took me years to learn.  In my 20s, I used "beat my chest like Tarzan" when challenged in discussions.   By the time I hit my early 30s and adopted the old timers suggestions, I was amazed at how coworkers and even managers often turned to me for suggestions and advice..  Now in my mid-40s, I've learned to smile and let stuff roll off my shoulder the majority of the time.  For me, life is too short for ego trips.

Peace and High Greens 

[rdgk1se3019]

 I think the original posting was about the Turbo charger effects.

 Speaking of this I do have two of the recent run of the Atlas GP40-2 and they do have the turbo whine.

I spent alot of time to set all the sound CV`s to get the volumes down to normal human hearing levels.

The sounds were set so high I thought my eardrums were going to get blown out through my butt.

The turbo whine was so loud that I could not hear any other sound.

Once I managed to turn down the screaming jet engine noise to a respectable level I was able to hear all the other engine and gadget and gizmo sounds.