Decoder comparison needed for DCC neophyte ...............

[mobilman44]

Hi!

  I'm getting close to getting DCC decoders for my fleet of HO locos.  I'm looking to start out with non-sound decoders (I already have 4 BLI Paragon locos w/sound) and have narrowed the manufacturers down to TCS, Digitrax, and NCE.  As I will be spending a lot of bucks on these, I'm just not looking to experiment (I'm not an electronics guy) or buy something that I will regret as time goes by. 

What is your take on these three mfg decoders?  They all make decoders for my particular locos (Stewart & Stewart Kato F units, Bachmann Spectrum steamers, Atlas Rs units, P2K), so I could get them from any of the three.   But what are the typical "highs and lows" of the three mfg decoders?

I guess I'm looking for a Consumer Reports type commentary on decoders, and hopefully you all can help out. 

Thank you,

Mobilman44

[cacole]

 I've used all 3 brands that you mention and have had no problems with any of them.  I don't agree with your comment that you're going to be spending "a lot of bucks" for them, though, unless you like paying full retail price at a local hobby shop.  Check on-line sources such as Ulrich Models or Litchfield Station.

http://www.mr-dcc.com

http://www.ulrichmodels.biz 

and there are several other vendors with discount prices on decoders.

If all you need is motor control and basic headlight/backup light functions, any of these will do that nicely.  A TCS T-1 is their basic 2 function decoder; NCE's version is the D13SRJ; and Digitrax' offering is the DH123D.  All 3 of these can be had for less than $20 each from the vendors mentioned above.

[jeffrey-wimberly]

 I've used both Digitrax and NCE decoders. They're both very good but I prefer to use Digitrax.

[simon1966]

If you want a decoder with BEMF for slow motor control, the TCS ones can't be beat.  Having said that, I have all 3 brands on my layout and all perform well.  I quite like to try different things so am quite happy to not have standardized on one brand.  You may find you prefer one over the other, so start off with one of each and see what you like the best.

[Texas Zepher]

jeffrey-wimberly

 I've used both Digitrax and NCE decoders. They're both very good but I prefer to use Digitrax.

I've used both Digitrax and NCE decoders.  I prefer the NCE.

davidmbedard

I strongly suggest in standardizing in your decoder choices.  That way when it comes to trouble shooting, you are not taking off the shell down the road to see which decoder you installed.

I have to disagree a bit here.  I am in the "select the proper decoder for the locmotive" camp.  Also since you are new I would hate to see you standardize on something with no experience of the other units.  Suppose you standardized on brand XYZ and used them for years and years, then tried a brand ABC and discover that WOW I really like feature-Q of this other brand and wish you would have "standardized" on them.  My opinion is that only personal experience allows one to know what they will be happy with.  As far as knowing what decoder has been installed in what locomotive - that is what keeping records is for.  I keep my DCC converted fleet in a simple spreadsheet.  In fact, that is a good idea even if one is standardized on a particular brand or even decoder type because one can never remember all the lighting wiring issues, CV settings, speed curves, etc. and any other quirks of each locomotive. 

davidmbedard

2.   Consider NCE D13SRJs.  They can be had at about 13 dollars a pop and have a 9 pin interface.  This allows to you just remove the decoder and replace it with another if it ever fails.  They are packed with features.

I would recommend the DA-SR for the Stewarts Fs, Kato RS, and Atlas hood units and possibly some of the P2Ks.  They replace the manufacturer's circuit board.  The Digitrax equivalents are the DH165K0, DH165L0, DH165A0.  Not only are these a little higher peak current (2 amp) decoders, they have the FX3 lighting effects.  That is something no one has mentioned yet in this thread.  The lighting effects (say MARS lamp) are quite different on different decoders.  Some decoders are basically a blinking light.  Digitrax FX3 has a wide variety of effects that are way beyond the blinking light.  Of course they only work with incandesant bulbs, not LEDs. 

http://www.ncedcc.com/dasrv35_d.pdf

http://www.digitrax.com/prd_mobdec_dh165a0.php

 

[Mark R.]

I've purchased at least 100 decoders from TCS over the years and use them exclusively - and for the most part, have been very pleased with them. The thing that keeps me coming back is their warrantee. I've looked at both NCE and Digitrax as well, but the warrantees aren't as good ....

TCS - Goof proof warrantee. They will repair or replace the decoder no matter what .... even if the problem is caused by something YOU did wrong ! Free return shipping included.

Digitrax - Free replacement warrantee if the defect is decoder related. There is no warrantee if the fault lies within user eror or installation.

NCE - Their warrantee requires you to send $10 per decoder for repair or replacement plus an additional $5 for return shipping.

There's been a couple times where I've inadvertantly shorted out the board, and TCS replaced it no questions asked. I've also had to return the odd one for issues with the decoder itself .... again, replaced no problem. To me, with the potential of something going wrong, the warrantee is something you should seriously consider when making your decoder choices - things do and will go wrong.

Mark.

[locoi1sa]

 I have tried almost every manufacturers decoders. When I first got the DCC bug I bought a lot of different decoders. The only ones that went bad were 2 Digitrax plug and play that fried on a program track and Digitrax would not warranty them for me. Since then going on 75 plus decoders not one says Digitrax on the wrapper. Most of my non sound decoders are TCS. They have excellent motor control and lighting functions. The Mars light works great on an LED and the auto dim when stopped and F4 is a good feature if you want to have some locos parked. In my opinion NCE has the best ditch lights. I mostly model the steam/diesel transition but I own one modern GE GEVO that I put ditch lights in using 3 mm LEDs in the pilot. I also install decoders for club members and friends and have had no complaints with the NCE or TCS decoders.

 I can understand the expense if you go with the Lenz gold decoders. But most TCS, NCE and Digitrax basic 2 function decoders are under $20. Most six function decoders are under $30

    Pete

[DRGWjb]

Hi Mobilman44. I have been watching this forum for some time - first reply.

I started with Digitrax decoders and I am happy with them. I recently tried NCE decoders and prefer them due to smoother quieter running, straight forward lighting install and operation and better and clearer documentation with the decoder. Price about the same - around $20 - $22 at LHS.

Both are easy to install - I use Atlas, Kato and P2K diesels with a couple blue box Atherns that I detailed some time ago. I install LEDs for all lighting. The Rule 17 lighting setup in the NCE is easy and very nice.

Have fun.

jb

[simon1966]

jb, welcome to the forum.  I am a fan of Digitrax, but I have to say you are spot on with your analysis of their decoder documentation.  It is IMO very poor unless you happen to have a copy of their decoder manual around.  Given that most people only get one of these with a Digitrax command station there are a lot of people that don't have access to this other than on the web.  TCS has the very best documentation supplied with a decoder.  It is very well presented and being in color is easier to follow.

 

 

[rrinker]

 I've always pushed the D13SRJ from NCE around here, because in a 10 pack they are $12 each ($11.99 actually) from Empire Northern. However, when I started using them, the somewhat more expensive TCS T-1 didn;t do BEMF (neither does the D13SRJ). I had a couple Digitrax decoders in my P2K's, but those were REALLY expensive (relatively).

 However, since I have ended up starting all over from scratch, I picked up a couple of TCS T-1's for my first two locos. All i can say is, wow. Probably worth the extra $5 over the D13SRJ. Slow speed is perfect, and there's no annoying 'jump' as you pass a certain speed like with the Digitrax decoders with BEMF. In fact I just ordered 2 more for the two 'new' locos I just won on eBay.

 I am firmly in the "solder it in" camp. I started doing that with the D13's and I've done it with these two T-1's. It's not complicated at all - on a cab diesel you have 6 wires, 2 track pickups, 2 motor, and 2 for the headlight. 7 if it has a Mars light, or a hood diesel with front and rear lights. By wiring it yourself you avoid any possible issues witht he factory boards - some have odd control circuits instead of just basic diode constant lighting, some run extra lights paralleled with the motor instead of off the headlight circuits, some require you to cut through traces to install a decoder in the supplied socket, etc. Avoid it all, solder in. Right rail to red wire, left rail to black wire. Orange wire to the motor where the right rail used to connect, grey wire to the motor where the left rail used to connect. Boom, done. The T-1 and D13SRJ decoders have a 9 pin plug so you can swap the decoder if somethign happens, no soldering required to take it out.

Another advantage of soldering in is that the specific fitment decoders ALWAYS cost more than a generic decoder with a plain wire harness. Once you do a few of the easy ones with the wires already in the approximately correct position, it will be easier to tackle those older or more oddball locos.

ALso - always test on the program track. How one of the posters above blew a decoder on the program track I'll never know, the current on the program track isn't enough to light an LED let alone fry a decoder. If you can't program and read back, do NOT put the loco on the main track until you check the wiring - with a Super Chief or other DCC system that can actually read back CV values, if it doesn't read a basic motor decoder, there's something wired wrong and it probably WILL let the magic smoke out if you put it on the full power main track. I haven't fried a single decoder yet, but I always check ont he program track first, and then there's the TCS warranty, even if YOU mess up, they send you a new decoder. Can't beat that.

                                               --Randy

 

[mobilman44]

Hi!

Thank you all for your advice and opinions!  It took me a lot of years to figure out that I don't have to "recreate the wheel" everytime I want to do something new.

After digesting your thoughts, I do have a couple of questions regarding instructions and lights.

When you buy a decoder for specific locos, does it give specific instructions for that loco?  In example, if I were to buy NCE's D13SRP for the Stewart FTs, does it give instructions for that loco?  Of course when you buy generic decoders, the wiring is fairly straight-forward as you all pointed out.  But how do you know if your particular loco needs something special done to it.

I am particularly concerned about lighting.  Modeling the late '40s/'50s, my loco lighting needs are pretty basic - front & rear (if applicable) headlights.  But how do I know if that particular loco with xyz decoder needs special wiring (i.e. resistor) for the lighting or if bulbs need to be replaced?

And lastly, if the bulbs need replacement, how would I know what is needed and would fit, and who are some of the leading sources of such bulbs?

Sorry to ask what may be some very basic questions, but I learned long ago its easier to ask than to be a "know it all" and mess up.

Thank you!

Mobilman44

 

[MisterBeasley]

I have a couple of TCS T-1 decoders.  They work fine, but they do have a problem.  In discussions here, I've found that the problem is not unique to my engines, and that it is a known problem with these decoders.  What I'm not sure of is whether or not TCS has fixed the bug.

When you created a consist, some engines want to go into it in the forward direction, and some in the reverse direction.  The TCS T-1 equipped engines I have will not go into a consist in the reverse direction.  They'll accept the commands and enter the consist, all right, but they will run forward when the consist runs forward, which generally puts them in conflict with the other engines.  So, those engine go forward, and I put other engines in reverse to compensate.  Still, it's annoying to have to remember which engines have the TCS decoders, and always make them the lead engine.

I've got a Soundtraxx decoder that I'll be using to upgrade one of my TCS engines, so I'll take the T-1 out.  I'm thinking of putting it on my turntable.  That's one unit I can be sure I'll never put in a consist!

If you are thinking about adding sound later, the newer Digitrax decoders (125, 165, etc.) are equipped to plug in the Soundbug add-on sound only decoder.  I'm not a big fan of Soundbugs, because they don't have a lot of audio output level, but it is an option to consider.  Wiring in a sound-only decoder is no big deal, but there can be compatability issues between different manufacturers when you do this.

[Texas Zepher]

mobilman44

When you buy a decoder for specific locos, does it give specific instructions for that loco?  In example, if I were to buy NCE's D13SRP for the Stewart FTs, does it give instructions for that loco?

For your example the answer is, unfortunately, not.  The instructions are still generic.  There are some loco specific decoders that are specific instructions for the loco because they are that unique.  In the specific case of the D13SRP and Digitrax equivalent I thought it was fairly obvious how they were installed.  The only goof I've done is not making certain the front of the decoder was in the front of the loco - oops...  Then there is the possibility of getting it put in upside down.  The only tricky part (as you noted below) is matching the voltages of the light bulbs.  Depending on the unit one might have to cut a jumper or put in a jumper to change the voltage output from track voltage to 1.5V.  This is where knowing what is in a specific model and reading the decoder instructions is important.

Of course when you buy generic decoders, the wiring is fairly straight-forward as you all pointed out.  But how do you know if your particular loco needs something special done to it.

My advice would be to search on-line.  Many people have published their conversion method.  These are on the DCC vendor sites, Tony's Trains, here in this forum, etc.

I am particularly concerned about lighting.

Good thing to be concerned about.

But how do I know if that particular loco with xyz decoder needs special wiring (i.e. resistor) for the lighting or if bulbs need to be replaced?

The user guide with the loco should have something about bulb replacement.  That should have some voltage information in it somewhere.   Likewise the decoder instructions will what the voltage outputs are or if the decoder has built in resistors.

And lastly, if the bulbs need replacement, how would I know what is needed and would fit, and who are some of the leading sources of such bulbs?

Ah! if replacing bulbs is necessary or desired then you can choose.  LEDs will for all intents an purposes not burn out.  The 1.5V micro-incandescent bulbs can be found in 15ma versions, they look like real lamp bulbs in the housings, one can even put two "bulbs" in a single housing, and they can do great effects.   If higher voltage lamps are used, one can start getting into heating issues.   One thing I look for in lamps is if the leads have insulation on them or not.  Once I bought a bulk package for cheap but they had naked wire leads.  They were not fun to work with.

A few of the leading brands are minatronics, railtronics, circuitron

http://www.miniatronics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=M&Product_Code=18-075-10&Category_Code=1_1&Product_Count=0 

http://www.railtronics.com/Electronic_Comp_Lamps.html

http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/Mitey_Lites.htm 

Personally I like using one really bright LED for the headlight (constant on) and the sub-miniature bulbs for mars lamps, marker lamps, etc.

 

[rrinker]

 Interesting, I was under the impression that problem with TCS decoders was fixed a long time ago. I seem to recall they offered free replacements at the time if you had that issue.  I'll test it as soon as I get my second one hooked up. Are you doing command station consisting or CV19 consisting?

                            --Randy

 

[WSOR 3801]

 The Lenz system uses advanced consisting.  My method is to program CV19, the rear motor getting consist address + 128.  The Lenz consisting is less than intuitive to somebody used to Digitrax.  I have been setting up a number of advanced consists, so I can go from home (Digitrax) to dad's house (Digitrax) to youth group (Lenz) and just dial in the consist address and go.

[rrinker]

 OK, just want to make sure I try it the same way. Sounds like they ignore the +128 to runt he opposite way. But I do kinda remember that they fixed that and offered peopel repalcement decoders. Doubt the replacement would still be valid though, this has to be 3 years ago, maybe more.

                                                    --Randy

 

[locoi1sa]

 Some one on another forum had found that if you cycle the power to the loco it works in the direction you programed. I still have a couple old TCS decoders that do that. After setting up the consist I just tip the loco to one side and run the consist as programed. Version 35 and up seem to have the bug fixed. Version 33 and some 34 decoders of mine have the consist bug.

    Pete