Prototype Headlight Control with DCC??????

[BLW ENGR]

 I wish to control consist headlights like the prototype and am finding it hard to believe that you cannot with DCC.

On a full size locomotive there is a MU headlight control switch on the EC (Engine Control) panel.  It has five positions:

1.  Single or middle unit

2.  Short hood lead - Leading unit

3.  Long hood lead - Leading unit

4.  Short hood trail - Trailing unit

5.  Long hood trail - Trailing unit

When the reverser in the controlling (lead) locomotive is in FWD the lead headlight will be on.

When the reverser in the controlling (lead) locomotive is in REV the trail headlight on the rear unit will be on.

All other headlights will be off, all the time.

When I set up a DCC consist I can turn all the headlights off on all the trail units before hand and only the ones on the lead unit will function.  Or I can leave them on and have the directionality work on the entire consist.

It would seem to me that since I tell each decoder in a consist that it is either a. Lead unit (& direction), trail unit (& direction), additional units (& directions) that this would be easy logic for the software to figure out which headlights should be on when, and that all "additional units" should never have their lights on.

It gets more confusing if you run mid-train and/or rear end helpers/distributed power. 

Also if I drop or pick up a unit enroute it is set up as the new trail unit and the old trail unit becomes just an "additional unit".  The headlight control should pass to the new rear unit.

If someone has figured out how to run DCC headlights like the real thing, please let me know. You never see trailing units headlights on in pictures in the magazines.

BLW ENGR in KC

 

 

[jalajoie]

It would helpful if you tell us what DCC system you are using along with the brand of decoders involved including the type of consist.

I can do what you are seeking with both Digitrax and NCE decoders using Digitrax or NCE systems and with both Universal and Advanced consists.  

[BLW ENGR]

 I have NCE.  I'm looking forward to your solution.  Thanks for the quick response.

 

BLW Engr 

[cacole]

 I do this all the time with Digitrax, TCS and NCE decoders.  When I create an Advanced consist with my NCE ProCab Radio throttle the system automatically turns the headlights off on all but the lead locomotive.

Broadway Limited and Digitrax SoundFX decoders do the same.

[jalajoie]

I did some experiments consisting two locos back to back with a NCE Power Cab. I used a brand new Power Cab with Rev. 1.28 software.
I also used 2 Atlas Dash 8-40CW without sound, equipped with two identical NCE D14SR V3.5 decoders. The decoders on all locos were left with their factory default setting, except for the address which was set to each loco cab #, the appropriate value in CV2 to insure every locos were crawling at speed step 1 and a value of 3 for acceleration and deceleration rate for every locos CV 3 and 4 respectively.

With the Power Cab and the two non sound units. I made an advance consist with both locos operating back to back. The consist address was 127 and the leading loco was # 7300 and the trailing loco was # 838. I made sure the stack contained both consist bearing the cab # of each loco. This consist did not behave as I was expecting. Sure enough I could toggle back and forth between each end of the consist with the recall button however the lights did not react as I wanted. If I was using #7300 as lead loco the front light of loco 7300 was on, which is OK but the rear light of loco 838 the trailing loco was also on, which is not what I wanted and vice versa. What I wanted is only the leading loco with headlight on and the trailing completely dark. Fortunately I know my way around at the bit level of the most popular CV, I was able to correct this problem in programing the proper values in CV22=0.

With the Power Cab to change end of the consist : First shut the light on the former leading loco, next recall the now new leading loco, put the lights on and go. (3 keystrokes)
This  is done on the fly, very easy only remember to set a value of CV22=0 in each decoder.

This is the long method that work with both Digitrax and NCE decoder, there is a shorter and easier method if only i could know the brand of decoders you are using, I could help more.

[BLW ENGR]

 Decoder type NCE & TCS

Consists ? 2, 3, 4 units, Atlas, BL, Proto, Stewart - Hood units 

[WSOR 3801]

 Most every engine I have been in has a control on the back wall like this:

12 o'clock is Single-Intermediate. 

3 o'clock is Controlling, unit coupled long hood end.

6 o'clock is Controlling, unit coupled short hood end.

9 o'clock is Controlled by unit coupled either end.

Older engines have two slide switches for front and rear lights, and a rotary switch for dim-bright. 

12 o'clock is dim both ways

3 o'clock is bright front, dim rear

9 o'clock is bright rear, dim front

Newer engines have a separate off-dim-bright switch for each headlight.

 

 

I usually set my decoders to have F0 run the front lights, and F1 the rear.  Some decoders allow separate dimming; F4 dims the front, F8 dims the rear, like a newer engine.  Some only dim the opposite the direction of travel, like an older engine.  

 

[locoi1sa]

 BLW

 I can help with the TCS decoders. Look at this link and skroll down to functions in a consist.

http://www.tcsdcc.com/pdf/NUG030913.pdf

 Im sorry but you will have to program them before consisting or program on the main. When I consist my yard goats I function map the rear lights to F1

  Pete

[jalajoie]

With NCE decoders I like to keep the Forward light as the default F0 and map the Reverse light to F1. This way I can toggle on/off the rear light at will. I have not done any test yet with TCS decoders.

Suppose you want to make a consist of two engines running back to back and both engines are NCE equipped. Lets assume one engine is #1148 the leading and the other one #1141 the trailing one, you will use 127 as the consist address.

To map the Reverse Light to F1:

Set CV33=1 (it is the default value, may already be set to that value)

Set CV34=1 (the original value is 2)

Set CV35=2 (the original value is 4)

You do that to both locos.

Select both loco turn on the forward light with F0 and turn off the rear light with F1. You do that before making the consist. 

Now you will have to make the consist manually (Don't use the throttle to make the consist)

To do that program a value of 127 into CV19 for loco #1148 and a value of 255 into CV19 for loco #1141. (The value of 255 is because we want the trailing unit to run in reverse when in the consist. 127 the consist address plus 128 to reverse the direction of travel equal 255.

Select the consist 127 with your throttle and run it forward. Only the front light of the leading unit #1148  should be On and the trailing loco should be completely dark.

Hit the reverse key and now the #1148 is completely dark and the headlight of the trailing unit #1141 is on.

PS. BLW ENGR I just sent you an Email. 

[DigitalGriffin]

 

Is the NCE throttle using Universal or Advanced Consisting when forming/breaking consist?  (I'm not entirely sure.  I would have to read the tech ref manual)

If it's universal it won't work.  The train doesn't realize it's in a consist.  It's just a simulated consist in which all numbers in the consist receive the same commands.  So standard lighting rules would apply.

If it's advanced consist, you have to have a decoder that supports the advanced lighting rules.  There should be a CV settings that allows you to set it you are head/middle/tail of train and orientation.

 

[BLW ENGR]

 Jack W.

 Thanks for the instructions.  It worked as I have wanted it to.  Now let's see if you might be able to help me with a more complex scenario.

It's Friday evening and the road local leaves town A with 1148 and 1141 set up like you described, headed for town D.  It has to work town B and C en route and pick up their respective local switchers, 1000 and 1001, to bring them to D for servicing over the weekend.  They have been set up for working by themselves during the week with the forward headlight on bright and the rear dim when in FWD, and vice versa when in Rev.  1000 @ B is facing east and 1001 @ C is facing west. 1000 becomes the rear unit at B and 1001 @ C, 1141 will not use it's headlight after it leaves B.

Sunday night the situation is reversed.

I'm using a Radio Cab 04 which has less functions than the Pro Cab.

Is there a was to make these headlight set up commands into a macro that the CAB 04 can handle?

Thanks again for the solution to my first problem.

BLW ENGR
 

[jalajoie]

Quite a challenge and an interesting operation scheme.

Off hand I am thinking about nesting a Universal consist with the actual Advance consist.

Problem is, I have never used that concept with a NCE system I am venturing into unknown territory. Maybe we will have to use consisting from the NCE throttle instead of manually programming CV19. It will be a good idea to test if the lighting effect is still active when using the menu driving method of consisting. To break consist 127 simply put a value of zero int CV19 for both locos.

I don't have a Cab 04 so I can't help with this matter.

I know Universal consisting is supported by NCE (NCE call it Old consist) with limitations. With my Power Cab I am limited to One consist with a maximum of 2 locos. The Pro Cab has no limit for the number of consist but limit each consist to 4 locos.  With Universal consisting we can use a loco # even if that loco doesn't exist. That would solve the pick up of the first switcher at B.

I will not be around till next Tuesday, I am heading to the Big E Train Show in West Springfield MA. This event I don't miss, been there for the 8 last year even if traveling across Vermont in Winter is not a piece cake. For me it is a 7 hours drive one way.

In the mean time, if someone experienced with nesting consists, could share his experience it would be appreciated   

[maxman]

jalajoie

I know Universal consisting is supported by NCE (NCE call it Old consist) with limitations. With my Power Cab I am limited to One consist with a maximum of 2 locos. The Pro Cab has no limit for the number of consist but limit each consist to 4 locos. 

For whatever it might be worth, the PowerPro manual states that the system will support 250 old style consists up to 4 locos each, or (and?) 127 advanced consists of unlimited locomotives each.  There is a caveat when using advanced consisting in that the system will remember the locomotive numbers of the lead and trailing locomotive and four in-betweeners.  So even though you have the other 30 locomotives you own in the same consist, you will only see the numbers of six of them when you browse the consist.

[rrinker]

 I'm guessing 250 is the number of locomotve address 'slots' the power pro has. The 127 limit for CV19 is because you only have 7 bits to work with - so consist numbers can be 1-127. The 'missing' 127 values are for a loco runnign in reverse - 129-255 is the same consist address as 1-127, just running in reverse, like 2 A units back to back. I'm also goign to guess the total is not the sum of those two numbers, that the 127 CV19 consists would use up at least some of those 250 'slots' leaving the rest for old style consists.

                                       --Randy

 

[jalajoie]

BLW ENGR

 Jack W.

 Thanks for the instructions.  It worked as I have wanted it to.  Now let's see if you might be able to help me with a more complex scenario.

It's Friday evening and the road local leaves town A with 1148 and 1141 set up like you described, headed for town D.  It has to work town B and C en route and pick up their respective local switchers, 1000 and 1001, to bring them to D for servicing over the weekend.  They have been set up for working by themselves during the week with the forward headlight on bright and the rear dim when in FWD, and vice versa when in Rev.  1000 @ B is facing east and 1001 @ C is facing west. 1000 becomes the rear unit at B and 1001 @ C, 1141 will not use it's headlight after it leaves B.

Sunday night the situation is reversed.

I'm using a Radio Cab 04 which has less functions than the Pro Cab.

Is there a was to make these headlight set up commands into a macro that the CAB 04 can handle?

Thanks again for the solution to my first problem.

BLW ENGR
 

Here is how I would handle your puzzle. First I don't think you can use a Cab 04 to achieve your goal.

I did my experiment using a Power Cab and it works great.

Assume East is to the Left and West is to the Right when looking at the layout and the train move from Town A (Left) to town D (Right).

Before leaving town B, clear the consist 127, move loco 1141 out of the way and back switcher 1000 to loco 1148, close the lights and couple it. Then couple loco 1141 to the switcher 1000 and rebuilt consist 127.

Before leaving town C, clear the consist 127, move loco 1141 out of the way and back switcher 1001 to switcher 1000, close the lights and couple it. Then couple loco 1141 to the switcher 1001 and rebuilt consist 127.

On Monday reverse the procedure.

If you absolutely want to have both switcher behind loco 1141, then I think the solution is with nested consists.  

 

[twcenterprises]

Please forgive me if I sound inexperienced (Well, I am, sorta), but is it possible to set up 3 consists?  The first (consist 127) with locos 1141 and 1148.  When you arrive and pick up number 1000, switch to consist 128, which you have already pre-programmed with locos 1141, 1148, and 1000.  And when you pick up number 1001, you switch to consist 129, which, again, you have pre-programmed with all four locos.  Seems a lot simpler than trying to re-program consists on a regular basis.

I am not sure if your system will support this, but it would be interesting to know as I may find myself in a very similar situation as I develop my track plan and future operating scheme.

Brad

[DigitalGriffin]

Short answer: No not easily.

You can easily add and remove single loco's on the fly, but changing the consist # is not possible without deleting the entire thing.

BTW: Advanced consisting only allows you to go to 127 far as consist numbers go.

 

[mactier_hogger]

Great pics! Brings back some memories It's been almost two years since I made my last trip