hello ,
i would like to see our club use digitrax super chief system for our club layout. other prefer nce.their reasons are you can program right from the cab (in English)and dint have to remember CV numbers to program and digitrax only have 12 functions. to upgrade nce functions you only have to replace a chip in the main controller at a cost of $15.00 and digitrax you have to upgrade every cab (not sure of the cost)
i have a super chief at home and like it. I'm new to dcc and don't know all the ins and outs so I'm no way qualified to make a good argument for them. so any one that can give me any good reasons to support digitrax.
and if any one has reasons why i may be wrong please feel free to tell me why your system may be better.
we do have common wiring where the is a common wire on the one rail is common to every thing from all the power packs to the 10 volt lighting to the, 32 volt switch machines . (did i mention our club was formed in 1949.and was powered from 2 volt cabin car batteries wired in series and still supply power for lighting and switch machines) but my super chief does work under these conditions, using bananna plugs connecting to the track and turning off the power pack for that panel. but i only run a limited number engines and don't cross into the areas running dc from other panels.
sorry Dave
typo
our club layout.
and what books do you suggest
Dan,
Actually, you can't go wrong with either company. Both make a very good product and both have their pros and cons. Once everyone has a chance to chime in here, accumulate a list of the pros and cons then present it to your club for discussion. One system is bound to be a better fit for your club for one reason or another.
Dan, is everyone in your club favorable about switching to DCC? How many other members have a DCC system and which kind to they have?
This recent thread might make a good read for you on the topic from the other side of the coin:
What don't you like about your DCC system?
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
tom,
i did read the other post. thats what gave me the ideal to post the question. I did research the dcc systems prier to buying mine. and settled on the chief for my home layout. at the time i didn't belong to a club, and at the suggestion of members on here, at the time i found one to join.(which turned out to be very the best advice Ive ever received,three years ago ( as a modeler and even the social aspect of the club) one of the reasons i respect the ideal of the members here.
their are 2 other members using dcc. for most the club is their only layout.
as to others wanting to switch to dcc i dint think it to big of a issue if we can, (and i do think is possible ),to have the option of switching between dc and dcc. because the club is going on 60 years old their is a lot of dc equipment the members acquired.and at least in the beginning going straight dcc would be a hard sell. with that said i think with all the new products coming out that are dcc ready. adding the decoder to the newer products wont be bad. its converting all the old.
i realize that it wont be jumping right into it because of all the switch machines (app 125) magnetic uncouples (around 100) it will be a slow process. and the first few YEARS will be a dc/dcc hybrid.
but you got to start somewhere.
k4danas to others wanting to switch to dcc i dint think it to big of a issue if we can, (and i do think is possible ),to have the option of switching between dc and dcc. because the club is going on 60 years old their is a lot of dc equipment the members acquired.and at least in the beginning going straight dcc would be a hard sell. with that said i think with all the new products coming out that are dcc ready. adding the decoder to the newer products wont be bad. its converting all the old. i realize that it wont be jumping right into it because of all the switch machines (app 125) magnetic uncouples (around 100) it will be a slow process. and the first few YEARS will be a dc/dcc hybrid. but you got to start somewhere.
Given the underlined above, Digitrax would be the better option/fit for your club because none of the NCE systems - Power Cab or Powerhouse Pro - support DC. Any of the Digitrax systems - Zephyr or SEB - allow you the option of running one (1) locomotive.
Your other option would be to keep your present DC system and add a DPDT toggle switch to your layout wiring so that you can run your club layout on either DC or DCC. That might make for a smoother transition from DC over to DCC for those more reluctant to either the new technology or installing decoders in their older locomotives.
However, if you choose that route, you're then back to figuring on the pros and cons of either system. You might also need to run your switch machines and higher voltage devices on a separate bus or buses.
Aside from the Less Filling/Tastes Great debate (Digitrax vs. NCE), my concern would be the common rail wiring. The serious discussion that needs to happen is whether you are going to move to double gaps or not and away from the common rail wiring before going to DCC. I would highly suggest double gaps. This will likely be some work. Digitrax strongly recommends against common rail wiring. I suspect NCE and others do too.
From the Super Chief manual:
4.1 Direct Home Wiring vs. Common Rail Wiring
Digitrax strongly recommends direct home wiring where each power district and its booster are electrically isolated. This type of wiring is safer and more convenient to work with for debugging and for adding reversing sections and detection later.
Remember, no matter how you control your trains, you should always use safe wiring practices.
One option, often used, is to utilize common rail wiring within a power district and double gap between districts. This may minimize the amount of wiring changes needed.
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
Even worse - if you notice in the original posting, the common rail is used for more than common train runnign power. That ABSOLUTELY needs to be seperated out before connecting ANY brand of DCC system. Converting any club-size layout is no easy task, and certainly will take time and very likely try the patience of many members. One way to derail such a project is to blow up the DCC equipment - so task 1 will have to be a near complete rewiring to get rid of the common connections. Nothing should share the DCC track power lines. Plus at any point where another booster ot circuit breaker attaches, the track should be double-gapped, no common rail even for the DCC power.
As for tastes great/less filling - if you use Digitrax tyou only have to run one telephone wire bus around under the layout to connect throttles, additional boosters, track detection, and signals. Everythign runs over the Loconet.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
k4dantheir are 2 other members using dcc.
their are 2 other members using dcc.
What brand(s) of DCC systems do these other two club members have?
If two (or three) of the folks who already have DCC have the same brand, and it's a brand that scales well to the size of the club layout, well, there's your tiebreaker.
Steve
I see a couple of issues here:
Common Rail wiring - You just have to get rid of it. And this will require 'double gapping' the track if you still want to run cab control - lots of work.
Running DC engines on DCC. Even though the Digitrax system allows 'packet stretching' - only one cab can run engines and any DC engine on the layout will be affected. Also the DC engines will 'sing' when they are not moving, and the motors may burn out from the stress. System performance of your DCC system many times becomes poor(DCC throttles get slow response) when someone is operation a DC engine. Our club is 100% DCC and we do not allow DC operation.
If the club has been around for a while(as this club has), I am surprised that they are even looking at DCC. You mention that only 2 other club members even have DCC? Our club is 'new'(4 years old) and the layout was built for DCC only.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
tstageYour other option would be to keep your present DC system and add a DPDT toggle switch to your layout wiring so that you can run your club layout on either DC or DCC. That might make for a smoother transition from DC over to DCC for those more reluctant to either the new technology or installing decoders in their older locomotives.
Not quite that simple Tom. Once you start installing things like boosters and breakers, and auto reversers, you're doubling your wiring with a dual mode DC/DCC system. And if you happen to run 16V power through an older 12V supply....well the results aren't pretty if it's a large reverse current. It depends on how tolerant the 12V caps are on the 12V supply, and how tollerant to surges, reverse current. Output stages sometimes can't handle reverse current as well.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
jbinkley60 4.1 Direct Home Wiring vs. Common Rail Wiring Digitrax strongly recommends direct home wiring where each power district and its booster are electrically isolated. This type of wiring is safer and more convenient to work with for debugging and for adding reversing sections and detection later. If you are planning to use whole layout common rail wiring, please have your dealer special order opto-isolated boosters for your layout.
I read the same thing. The common rail needs to be broken into seperate districts to protect supplies.
I built and wired a 20 x 40 foot HO scale club layout several years ago, and performed a lot of research when we were deciding which DCC system to purchase. Here are my thoughts on your club's dilemma:
I wired the club layout for dual-mode operation from the very get-go. There are switches on the control panels marked 'BLOCK/DCC' to select between one or the other. The two can NEVER be intermixed.
A large, main power supply was built with an output capacity of 19 Volts, 35 Amps, pure, filtered, absolutely flat DC. This runs both DC block and DCC systems. There is a switch on the power supply's control panel to select between BLOCK and DCC, so it's always one or the other and they can never be intermixed.
All track wiring must be double wires for DCC-- no common ground wiring under any conditions!
Every siding and most of the main lines are divided into blocks for DC operation, with DPDT toggle switches on control panels to turn the various blocks and sidings on and off as necessary, and to select between two DC block hand-held controllers on each panel. Both rails are gapped at every block and siding boundary.
Cost-wise, NCE was almost $1,000 cheaper than a comparable Digitrax system. We selected the NCE Radio throttles. No controller bus wiring was necessary anywhere. This saved another $200 or so on cabling, not to mention all of the labor that would have been involved to install the controller bus.
NCE offers a 15 percent club discount -- this saved us another $700 on the cost of the ProCab 5 Amp system with two 5 Amp boosters and 4 radio throttles!
Digitrax is a fine system, but in my opinion, the NCE Radio throttles are leap-years ahead in technology.
If your club performs a thorough cost analysis, including all of the extras that would be necessary with the Digitrax system, you may change your mind about which is the best for you.
That's just my
cacole...Cost-wise, NCE was almost $1,000 cheaper than a comparable Digitrax system...
That's odd, considering that Digitrax tends to cost less than NCE. Here are some sample MSRP's(Digitrax also offers club discounts, and whether ordering through a club or through a retailer, if you shop around you can find roughly the same discounts for both):
Digitrax 5 amp Radio Super Chief: $639.99
NCE 5 amp Radio Power Pro: $699.95
Digitrax DT400R(radio throttle): $229.99
NCE ProCab-R(radio throttle): $249.95
Digitrax UT4R(radio utility throttle): $129.99
NCE CAB04pr(radio utility thrttle): $179.95
I do need to point out that the NCE utility throttle does have the ability to control accessory decoders, and the Digitrax utility throttle doesn't.
The Digitrax boosters and power supplies are more expensive:
Digitrax DB150 5 amp booster: $179.00
NCE PB105 5 amp booster: $159.95
The Digitrax DB150 does have an Empire Builder command station buit in.
Digitrax PS515: $49.95
NCE P515: $37.95
You can use NCE(and others) boosters and power supplies with Digitrax(the NCE and Digitrax power supplies listed above are actually the same thing).
Even if you don't use a throttle bus(most clubs I've seen opt to have a throttle bus even even if they use radio so that they don't have to buy all radio throttles), I would think you would be hard pressed you spend more on a comparably equipped Digitrax system.
DigitalGriffinNot quite that simple Tom. Once you start installing things like boosters and breakers, and auto reversers, you're doubling your wiring with a dual mode DC/DCC system. And if you happen to run 16V power through an older 12V supply....well the results aren't pretty if it's a large reverse current. It depends on how tolerant the 12V caps are on the 12V supply, and how tollerant to surges, reverse current. Output stages sometimes can't handle reverse current as well.
Don,
I agree. That's why I mentioned at the end of my post, "You might also need to run your switch machines and higher voltage devices on a separate bus or buses."
tstageI agree. That's why I mentioned at the end of my post, "You might also need to run your switch machines and higher voltage devices on a separate bus or buses."
Oh right you are!
Should have known you would have been on top of things. :-D
CSX Robertcacole...Cost-wise, NCE was almost $1,000 cheaper than a comparable Digitrax system... That's odd...<snip a great price comparison>Even if you don't use a throttle bus(most clubs I've seen opt to have a throttle bus even even if they use radio so that they don't have to buy all radio throttles), I would think you would be hard pressed you spend more on a comparably equipped Digitrax system.
That's odd...
<snip a great price comparison>
One more point: You can actually buy a Super Empire Builder starter set (DB150, UP5 and DT400) for less than the price of the individual components. Since multiple boosters/throttles were purchased, you could buy the SEB sets instead of the components and save even more.
DigitalGriffintstageI agree. That's why I mentioned at the end of my post, "You might also need to run your switch machines and higher voltage devices on a separate bus or buses." Oh right you are! Should have known you would have been on top of things. :-D
No problem, Don. You and the others are still head and shoulders above my own knowledge about the ins and outs of DCC. I'm always learning but feel I'm still only grasping a fraction of it.
Springfield PA
The only DCC I have owned are Bachmann EZ Command and my Digitrax Super Chief. I, therefore, cannot comment on the NCE but I am totally satisfied with my Digitrax system.
When I decided to upgrade to a REAL DCC system, I went to the various maufacturers websites and read the manuals for their systems. I also read the manuals for all the "stuff" that could be added at a later date. Last but not least, I went to a couple of train shows and looked at what the display layouts were using.
I bought the Super Chief and have never regretted my choice.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
k4dani realize that it wont be jumping right into it because of all the switch machines (app 125) magnetic uncouples (around 100) it will be a slow process. and the first few YEARS will be a dc/dcc hybrid.
Switch machines and magnetic uncouplers don't have anything to do with converting to DCC. Sure, you CAN get accessory decoders to control switches and devices through the DCC controller, but if you've already got the controls in place for the switches on the layout I wouldn't recommend redoing that.
To me, throwing a switch (turnout) by flipping a (electrical) switch on a control panel is preferable to having to enter in addresses on the DCC controller to throw a switch. Especially if you're doing a lot of switching. DCC accesory decoders for switch machines make the most sense if you're controlling things through a computer interface like a CTC machine.
So I would maintain your old switch control wiring and just concentrate on the track wiring for DCC.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
i new the common rail wiring was going to be an issue with you guys, i gasped when i seen it too. i think this is going to be the hardest part of trying to change over. because shutting down the layout for more then a week at a time will be a issue with the club.
as to what the other members have. one has nce the other has mrc.
Jim,
with your club being 4 years old why did your club decide on digitrax.
Dan, Most of the members had NO layout building experience, but had some DCC(BLI) engines with Sound/DCC. Of the original 10 members, only 3 had built a layout, and those 3 all had Digitrax DCC on their layouts(myself included). After several visits to the 3 DCC home layouts, the decision to go DCC was pretty easy. We had a LHS that was closing down(the owner died, and his brother was running it until it was closed). He offered to get the 'club' stuff for a discount and while talking to Digitrax, mentioned that a 'large' club was going DCC: they offered to give that large 'one time' discount. I suppose it did not hurt that my son had worked at the Digitrax booth at the National Train Show for a number of years! Anyway, with 3 guys with Digitrax experience and a good discount, the decision was made. I later learned that NCE has made similar deals with clubs. To be honest, I have operated on layouts with MRC, Lenz, NCE, and Digitrax DCC systems. They all have their faults and great points as well. The layouts/clubs that are a DCC nightmare are the ones who went 'on the cheap' and a quality install/wiring job was not done. Intermittent problems arise and never get fixed. They also are the ones with dual DCC/Cab Control systems that get crossed. A good firend who lives 45 miles away has a Wangrow/NCE system and it is a pleasure to operate on his layout. Any club layout should have a computer attached to the DCC system and be running 'Decoder Pro'. Nothing is more frustrating for a 'newbie' that trying to 'program' a decoder from a throttle. I can 'walk' them through the screens on Decoder Pro, and they 'got it' right away. A club DCC install without Decoder Pro is missing a lot. It 'trains' the newbie types and makes them a better DCC operator - Thus a satisfied DCC club member!
Jim Bernier
cv_acrSwitch machines and magnetic uncouplers don't have anything to do with converting to DCC.
I'm guessing K4Dan is using live non-isolated frogs, and powering routes by the points. In this case, the turnouts would be DCC unfriendly.
Please contact me via PM. I might have some useful information for you.
One thing to consider that has not ben mentioned is the capacity of the system. The Digitrax Super Chief has a capacity of 120 active locomotives at any one time. NCE has a capacity of 256. Since Digitrax uses universal consisting as their standard a consist can eat up 2-3-4 slots depending on size of the consist. If a member makes up a consist on the club layout then takes his engines home without breaking up the consist the consist is still in teh command station memory and those slots are not available. I have a large home layout. i currently model the 1982 Conrail era and have numerous 3-4 unit comsists made up. I have a Super Chief and had to hook up my laptop with Locobuffer installed to be able to manage the slot problem. When you max out the slots you can either start breaking up consists or reset some dip switches in the command station and end up loosing all consists on the rr. I've done this and it is not fun.When it maxes out it will not let anyone select a locomotive . A number of clubs and large home layouts have all had the same problem. Digitrax knows this and has promised a new upgraded command station. That was over 3 years ago !!!
If the slot capacity is not a problem then either system would handle club size railroads. I was a NCE user for about 6 years . Loved the system but 5 years ago their radio system would not handle the operations on my rr so I switched to digitrax. Now I am seriously considering switching back as the radio problems have been fixed and the NCE system has the slot capacity I need. Just somehing else to consider !!! --------------- Ken McCorry DCC since 1993 !!!
KemacPrr One thing to consider that has not ben mentioned is the capacity of the system. The Digitrax Super Chief has a capacity of 120 active locomotives at any one time. NCE has a capacity of 256. Since Digitrax uses universal consisting as their standard a consist can eat up 2-3-4 slots depending on size of the consist. If a member makes up a consist on the club layout then takes his engines home without breaking up the consist the consist is still in teh command station memory and those slots are not available. I have a large home layout. i currently model the 1982 Conrail era and have numerous 3-4 unit comsists made up. I have a Super Chief and had to hook up my laptop with Locobuffer installed to be able to manage the slot problem. When you max out the slots you can either start breaking up consists or reset some dip switches in the command station and end up loosing all consists on the rr. I've done this and it is not fun.When it maxes out it will not let anyone select a locomotive . A number of clubs and large home layouts have all had the same problem. Digitrax knows this and has promised a new upgraded command station. That was over 3 years ago !!! If the slot capacity is not a problem then either system would handle club size railroads. I was a NCE user for about 6 years . Loved the system but 5 years ago their radio system would not handle the operations on my rr so I switched to digitrax. Now I am seriously considering switching back as the radio problems have been fixed and the NCE system has the slot capacity I need. Just somehing else to consider !!! --------------- Ken McCorry DCC since 1993 !!!
ok now im confused you saying you have to deleat the road numbers out when you take your trains off the layout.
i only have 15 engans for my home layout to even use
so when i get my 121 engin in 20 years from now i will have a problem..
but seriousally i could see this as a problem at a club layout... even 256 will soon add up if no one deleats out engins...
theother thing im wondering now ut saying say some one has engin number 3451 in a consist
and they tale it off the lay out and dont tale it out if i bring a 3451 road number mine wont run???
couldent i just "steel" the number to my cab. witha digitrax system
As a part of routine maintenance, I clear out the club's Digitrax DCS100 memory for slots before and after every Operation session. It's not really a big deal because most people don't leave a lot of stuff on the railroad, or at least not in sets that have to stay together.
For those folks who have a "set", they program them all to the same number anyways (like an ABBA set of F-units).
Besides, all locos get 3x5 cards that have their DCC address on them, so MU-ing them isn't that hard to do...provided the cards are where they are supposed to be.
Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
Ken,
The 120 engine limit is not a real problem. If the decoder supports 'advanced' consisting, the consist is in the decoders, not the command station. This will reduce the number of slots needed. The DCS100 or DCS200 support decoders with advanced consisting. The big problem with 'slots' is that folks leave functions turned on(like lights) even though they 'dispatch' the engine from the layout. Our club uses Decoder Pro to review the slots and what functions may have been left 'on' - this will cause a slot to not be 'captured', even thought the engine is not there any more. I just use the 'Throttle' function and 'turn off' the functions that are on. Many time 'fat fingers' hit things like F8 or other functions and the user does not realize it. You do not have to 'clear' all of the addresses. The key is that a slot will not release untill all of the functions are 'off' and the engine has been dispatched. Even after that, the address will not clear from the slot monitor on the PC until the system wants to re-use it.
And like Paul mentioned, we do 'clean up' on the command station about once a month(switch 36 will clear all addresses/consists). Some folks complain when they find their 'consist' broken after having not even been to the club or run any thing for a month! I refer them to you club 'quick' sheet on consisting - they need to learn to do this stuff and not rely on someone else doing it for them. Most of the member have gotten very good about dispatching engines off of the layout.
I also keep a 'duplicate' card near the command station - We have duplicate engine numbers(I have a MILW FP7 - #104, and a friend has an Amtrak AMD-103 with #104). If a duplicate is on the layout - it ois on the card. We had a RI GP40 grind up the wheels while it was in staging because someone else was running another engines with the same engine address.
I would like to know how The Model Railroad Club, Inc manages - they use Digitrax. That are one of if not the largest club layouts anywhere.
rrinker I would like to know how The Model Railroad Club, Inc manages - they use Digitrax. That are one of if not the largest club layouts anywhere. --Randy
If you have that many trains running at once, I suppose you could have to independent layouts on the same terrain. Then you would have 240 slots. Three layouts and you would have 360 slots.