(reposted from the General Discussion forum-- someone suggested I should have put it here instead)
Howdy-
I need some advice please on what's currently (or near-future) available in DCC + Sound decoders. I understand DCC in general, its principles and concepts, so I'm okay there. However I haven't used it in about eight years so I'm sure there is stuff that's been developed since then, etc. that I don't know about.
I've done a little researching and have found Soundtraxx, QSI, and Loksound-- are there others worth mentioning? I am mostly interested in integrated controllers, meaning that have both locomotive control _and_ sound. Is that common yet? I've read about the patent crap and the NMRA intervention and whatnot and understand that things may fall favorably on the side of prior art... how will that influence products, availability and pricing? Are we likely to see a huge jump in new products and a reduction in price in the near future (say 1st-2nd quarter 2009) ???
I have a LOT of locomotives to upgrade (though will probably realistically upgrade a core of them, perhaps 20-30 or so and then do the rest a little at a time). A few of them (thinking 8-10 maybe) already have basic DCC decoders in them. Would it be better to simply add sound decoders (one factor is that would increase bulk inside the loco and decrease room for speakers, etc) or would it be better to pull out the old ones and install newer ones that have both loco and sound combined? (I don't mind using a soldering iron, saw, files, etc.) What about for the rest-- better to use separate loco-control and sound or combined decoders?
Of the three mfgrs listed above, I _think_ I like QSI best, but freely admit that's only based on reading their poop-sheet and listening to some clips online. I've also heard some clips from the others I mentioned too. One of the things I like about the QSI decoder is the ability to combine the various sound clips in an organized way as well as psuedo-random sounds to simulate pop-off valves, etc. Do the other decoders do that too? Is QSI the best at it or are the others just as good or better? I could use some opinions here.
I'm also a big fan of sound engines, and I'm slowly equipping my whole fleet, although it's not as large as yours.
I've installed a few sound decoders, and I'll probably do a couple more. From this experience, and looking at prices, I think it's no worse than a toss-up of whether to buy a loco with sound or by one without sound and add it yourself. By the time you've bought a sound decoder, speaker and enclosure, you're about up to where a sound engine would be, and you've still got to do the work.
I've got three engines with QSI systems, all bought with the engines. They have the best sound of those in my collection. Next, I've got one Soundtraxx engine, which I put in myself and I'm pretty happy with. Finally, I have two units with SFX0416 Digitrax decoders. These are sound-only decoders. They are OK, but I'm disappointed in the volume level available from these decoders. I have them cranked up all the way, and they are barely audible. On the other hand, they are programmable, and I was able to take files for my trolley from Digitrax and re-configure them just the way I wanted.
My QSI-equipped switcher, by the way, illustrates a side effect of sound systems. To make room inside, this engine was built with almost no interior weighting. It's far lighter than a similar "quiet" switcher, and its pulling power suffers dramatically. It came equipped with traction tires, but on a 4-axle diesel, that cuts the electrical pickup by 25% so this engine will occasionally stall on turnouts.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
In my experience all three of the companies you mention make good products. All three make decoders that combine engine control and sound...not sure if QSI makes "sound only" decoders but Soundtraxx does and I think Loksound does too. Digitrax also makes sound decoders now, I've used one and thought it was good. Soundtraxx offers an inexpensive "LC" line that is good especially if you have a lot of first-generation EMD or ALCO engines. The sound is a bit 'generic' but overall it's pretty good IMHO. BTW many sound decoders are available now as "drop-in" lightboard replacements, so except for the speaker don't take up any more room in the engine than the lightboard did.
For engines that already have a decoder installed, you could look at MRC's "Sounder" too. MRC engine decoders aren't thought of very highly, but these sound add-on ones are inexpensive and easy to install, and have a good range of whistles, horns etc. The diesel version can be used for four different types of engines. (Early EMD, SD-60, SD-17 and Alco.) The steam one offers a variety of "chuff" sounds too.
Beyond that, I guess you maybe have to try some out and see what you think. Some decoders like Soundtraxx diesel offers three types of horns (one "blat" horn, three-chime and five-chime), others offer only one horn but you can order one for a specific type of horn like Nathan five-chime etc. Depends on how accurate you want the sounds to be, and how much you want to pay.
MisterBeasleyI've installed a few sound decoders, and I'll probably do a couple more. From this experience, and looking at prices, I think it's no worse than a toss-up of whether to buy a loco with sound or by one without sound and add it yourself. By the time you've bought a sound decoder, speaker and enclosure, you're about up to where a sound engine would be, and you've still got to do the work.
Yes, I agree with you about the pricing. I'll probably start buying locos with sound already installed in the future. But for now I have a fleet of locos I've already purchased-- mostly proto2000, Genesis, and some other mixed stuff-- late era steam, early diesel and electrics mostly (around 1958-1960 era). So unless someone wants to give me a good price and let me start over, I'm looking at needing to upgrade them to DCC and sound. And I'd like to do it without raiding my kid's college fund... :)
I have seen articles on the net for homebrew DCC controllers, do you (or anyone) know of any projects for dcc w/ sound controllers? That might be the cheapest and easiest way to go overall, just have a run of boards made and have some smd "board-stuffing party" weekends. There would still be the issue of getting suitable sound clips I suppose...?
MisterBeasleyMy QSI-equipped switcher, by the way, illustrates a side effect of sound systems. To make room inside, this engine was built with almost no interior weighting. It's far lighter than a similar "quiet" switcher, and its pulling power suffers dramatically. It came equipped with traction tires, but on a 4-axle diesel, that cuts the electrical pickup by 25% so this engine will occasionally stall on turnouts.
Could you perhaps add more weight in the loco by using lead shot, pennies, or some similar method? Another possibility might be to "pot" the circuit board (in epoxy resin) and that would add some weight. A slight alternative to "potting" might be to make an epoxy fitting that would hold the board, fit down into the shell but leave room for the motor. Unless you're talking about an exceptionally small locomotive (and from your description, I'm guessing something like a 44-tonner or something..?) you could probably add some more weight somehow which would let it pull better and track better.
I was comparing an SW-8 to an S1, both P2K 4-axle engines. The sound-equipped SW-8 is extremely light. I haven't needed to take the shell off this engine, so I can't say how much space is in there. It seems likely that adding weight would be a possibility. However, I've got a small, flat layout, and my switchers seldom pull more than a half-dozen cars, and it's quite capable of handling that load.
I don't think home-made DCC chips are practical. While the individual cost of a chip is actually very small, the engineering and setup expense to make one chip would run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. The second chip is going to cost well under 1 dollar, as will all the rest, but it's that first one that drives the prices up.
MisterBeasley I don't think home-made DCC chips are practical. While the individual cost of a chip is actually very small, the engineering and setup expense to make one chip would run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. The second chip is going to cost well under 1 dollar, as will all the rest, but it's that first one that drives the prices up.
Yes, generically you are correct. However I happen to already have the facilities available. I'd have a run of the boards made by a third-party in any case, its just cheaper and easier, and there are prototyping houses that can do onesies and twosies pretty cheaply. In fact I just sent them an email asking for ballpark pricing just to see. I doubt it will be very much. I like to use a company called Canadian Circuits (canadiancircuits.com). They do pretty good work.
I hadn't really considered doing it that way but now that we're talking about it, its at least worth investigating the cost. I don't mind stuffing the boards if it gets the cost down. I have a lot of the parts probably on-hand in my parts bin. I'm guessing they use some PIC variant. I know the older decoders did. Not sure how they would do the sound part though, so I'd have to research that a bit.
Do you know of any homebrew sound decoder links?
I'd put the motor control for the old Soundtraxx at 'poor' if you give a Digitrax 163/5 series a 'good'. Those old Sountdtraxx aren't even silent running and sometimes the buzzes get into the speaker. Otherwise, that's a pretty good assessment of the various decoders out there.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I prefer factory installed QSI. They can be tamed by CV or tweaked a little. For me it has been the most trouble free except for perhaps one failed speaker and a occasional hit of the mute button by me out of dozens of engines.
I usually sell old Engines and use the funds to get new engines.
Once I upgraded by replacing a QSI chip from Tony's Trains with a upgrade chip. Not too different than installing a computer CPU onto a board socket. I suppose a few of the older version 6's might be upgraded as well but if they are not broken and are performing well on the layout.. why bother?
I did send two ATlas RS-1's to convert to DCC with soundtraxx. Let's just say that they came back with less than stellar sound. They did work well on DCC. But lost the pure "Glide" that they had on analog. I suppose one day those RS-1's will be built with QSI sound at the factory. One can dream.
I owned three MRC engines. 3 for 3 strikes and Im out of MRC. Im not going to bash them. 100% failure rate. In fact, I have resisted buying athearn Genesis engines analog models (WITHOUT MRC) until QSI could finish thier work on the Revolution Decoders with Sound. However.... for Club Duty, I may hold off for another year. I may purchase pure Analog engines in the mean time for Club duty.
I use the JMRI with the USB Locobuffer from RR-Cirkits to control the DCC engines and stationary decoders from time to time off the computer. It's easier than banging my head on the good old binary.
David, guys,
Requesting your opinions.
Have you heard the Revolutin containing the EMD 2nd generation sounds yet? How do you feel about the prime mover sampling?
I'm asking because I checked out BLI's website and listened to the BLI SD40-2 and the Blueline SD40-2. The diesel prime mover sound, while robust on both, seemed to lack that distinct turbocharger and idler gear "whine" that EMD Dash 2s (except for the 38 series) are well known for. I'm very interested in the Revolution decoders and am hoping that perhaps the EMD Dash 2 sound on the Revolution is different from the sound samples on BLI's website.
The EMD Dash 2 turbo sounds that I've heard on Lok Sound, Soundtraxx DSX, Digitraxx, and (it pains me to say) "MRC", imho, are on target.
Thanks.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
Remember that a "Programmable" sound decoder means that you can alter the sounds, if you have the programming unit. You can't just program a new set of sounds from your DCC system. It requires some sort of computer interface.
I've got my own Digitrax PR2, so I can program the Digitrax programmable decoders. But, as has been mentioned, they tend to be "quiet," which some interpret as "dang near inaudible." My PR2, however, can't program Soundtraxx or LokSound or QSI decoders. They are all manufacturer-specific, and each unit costs in the neighborhood of a hundred bucks.
My LHS has one or two programming units, and they can download sound files. That's a great thing to have, and one of those things that you can get from an LHS but not from very many Internet retailers.
I've actually dug into the programming language and modified the sound files to specifically work better with my DCC system (re-mapping the sounds to better buttons) and my engine, a trolley in this case. I got the basic files from Digitrax, and some of the additional stuff I needed, along with help, from one of the contributers who provided the traction sound package available from Digitrax. Yes, it's computer programming, and it takes a bit of thought, but the complexity level is not outrageous.
Maybe a little extra effort needs doing by some of the chips to reflect as closely as possible the actual sounds. I dont know exactly which of the surviving videos with sound of various engine models will be clean enough to be worked with.
I wont get into how some desiels in trucking sound like very large leaf blowers today straining to get past all that california choker chained to it. I would hate to hear the same from a model engine 10 years from now.
Thanks for your replies. I like hearing different opinions on these types of subjects as I tend to become biased and sometimes reading other opinions and info will shed light on my prejudices.
I do have an SD45-2 with a Lok Sound system and, imho, has the best sounding Dash-2 turbo EMD that I've heard compared to the competition.
I've heard the MRC 2nd gen. sound. My criticism of its sound was that the prime mover sound, even when turned down, overwhelmed the other power system related sounds (compressor, air pop off, etc). The horns also had a weird, disjointed "tail" to them as well. Of course, the motor control was pretty bad..
Has anyone tried the MRC Sounder sound-only decoders?
I've still got a few non-sound engines (EMD GP-9 and F7) that I'd like to add sound to. They've already got motor decoders, so I'm looking for a low-cost sound unit. I've been disappointed with the volume level from the Digitrax SFX0416's I've installed, although I really needed the programmability for my trolley.
So, are these things loud enough to hear? How is the sound quality?
I think David B is pretty close if not spot on with his ratings.
I have 10 BLI steamers, all with factory QSI. Each revision is better than the last, starting with the K4. My I1 is the best. I also have a proto 0-8-0 (also factory QSI) which I've pulled the decoder/sounboard to put in a proto 0-6-0 and sounds great, one of my best performing locos. I also have the BLI E7s, which are superb, and a NW2, which isn't quite as good. I do not know if the Revolution behaves the same way, but would be interested to know, as it's a totally dirffreent design. Id rate the factory steam units (on a scale of 1-5, with 5 being good) 5 for sound, 4 for motor control and NA for cost.
I currently have 5 Loksound decoders, 3x 3.5 and 2x micro. These are my favorite for switchers because the motor control is outstanding. I would put them in all diesels if I could. The way the system handles throttle input is very realistic, It's easy to get the RPMs way up befor the loco starts moving, and to drop to idle before the loco stops. I can't get the BLI NW-2 to do this for anything. I also have the Loksound programmer, and I am amazed at what all you can do withn it. I routinely take horn sounds from one packaged sound set and copy them into others to get the combo of prime mover and horn I like. I'd give them a 4 for sound, a 5+ for motor, and a 3 for price, as they're quite pricey, but worth it IMO.
I recently acquired 4x Digitrax 165 decoders and 2x soundbug "add on" modules. I thought this was a great concept, and my plan was to equip my road diesel fleet (1st gen fromall makers) with the 165s and then add soundbugs to 1 untit per ABA, AB, or ABBA set to get started, then go back and add more sound to each until I was happy. This should also allow dead on speed matching between sound and non-sound equipped locos, as it's an identical decoder. Honestly I must say I wasn't as impressed as I was hoping for. IMO the motor control is not even close to the Loksound, and the sound selection seems somewhat limites and the sound "sequence" seems basic. I just received the programmer, and after I master that will have a more finalized opinion. At $20 per 165 and $40 per soundbug (also $60 for the programmer, half what the Loksound costs) that still wins the finance contest, with the $20 identical decoder without sound as a kicker. My rating would be 3 for sound 4 for motor, and 5 for price.
I don't have Tsunami, but I did have some Soundtraxx LC series. I must say I didn't have a very good experience with them. There was an annoying high pitched while, whicg could be heard across the room, any time they were on the layout. I spent months emailing back and forth to Soundtrax trying to get them to understand the probem, which they never did. I even sent them in for repair, and they came back saying, they just reset them and they were OK. I even posted a 2 minut video with sound to help illustrate, and they never even admitted that that it was undesireable. I even had an older unit that did NOT exhibit the whine. I sold them on ebay with a disclamer, and got no complaint. It was definately NOT the non-silent drive noise, which is another minus. I'd give them a 2 for sound, since I couldn't really hear it a 2 for motor and a 3 for price They're only slightly cheaper than Digitrax, but far inferior. This is one reason I'm hesitant on the Tsunami.
I just realized I did have an MRC sheer brilliance. I did not care for it at all. You could not adjust the master volume an it was way too loud. Moreover there were only three or four volume settings and I couldn't tell a difference. After setting something like 16 CV's three times each, I sent that back for a refund. I'll nt rate it as IMO it's not even in the same league.
Is summary, I believe I'm starting to standardize on QSI for steam, and I will try a revolution in a kitbash project I'm working on. Loksound for switchers, because you can't beat the slow and smooth motor control, and the micro version fits in almost anything (P2K S1 and Kato SW-1). For road diesels, If the Digitrax works out, great, if not I guess I'll dig into the pockets for Loksound there as well.
Besides the three areas weve been using for ratings I think configuration interface and depth of configurability could also be factors. I uderstand that QSI limits this to preloaded packages, or at least that's what the web site and yahoo forum say. Loksound is very granular, and even gives a visual flow chart representation of what sounds occur at what times with what triggers. All can be individually modified, replaced, even stacked and linked and volumes adjusted. I hope the Digitrax is on par.
I see the OP is a PRR fan. I'm roughly in the same boat, as one of my criteria in modeling that road was to be able to have a smogasboard of early diesels from nearly all manufacturers. The Loksound page has downloadable sound packages for Baldwins and FM, which is another plus for them.
Kerry B
Modeling the PRR in South Central Ohio (or resonable facsimilie therof) Circa 1948
Every time someone asks about the MRC and adds the word Decoder to the question, I feel not so good.
You had a list of some values on the thing to adjust in a narrow range. By the time you duct taped the speakers and greased it to the point of having it slide off the workbench you still had a brick that hissed or roared with no real sound.
The first time I fired one of these up... my wife was like OMG what is that static? Did I set something frying?
And I once again failed to keep out of the MRC pickings. Amazes me how much a company can mass produce something for other companies to put into engines at the factory.
Here is a older video when I had one of these running as best as I could get it to.
http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/5469/boroundhouse280co2.flv
Here is another...
http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/1474/roundhouse440versiontwofb5.flv
Maybe I've just been lucky, but I've installed 5 2nd Gen MRC decoders, and aside from being too loud, I've had no problems with them. And at $34 from an online discounter, the price is right.
The QSI decoders are OK, and reliable, but the horn and diesel sounds seem to be computer generated and sound phony.
Here's an update on the Digitrax DH165 and soundbug units. I spent some time today with the programmer. They sent me a PR3, even though what I ordered was a PR2. I'm OK with that, but it might have been nice to have been told.
In a nutshell, I have to say I'm disapointed again. I have an ABBA set of P2K Alco FA1s and an AB set each of Genesis F3s and F7s. I'd like to get the sounds correct for either one at least, but when I went to the Digitrax website, there were only about 20 downloadable sound projects. They were mostly modern, with a few trolley, electrics and european packages. It was really supprising to find neither the Alco 244 or the 567, although there was a GP10, which may work for EMD units. To boot, the documentation looks incomplete, and gives the feeling that these are brand new and development work is still going on. The page says to select the decoder type, but doesn't have those listed as selections. The help popups didn't work either. The FAQ page has an attitue of "oh boy these are going to be great!" In fact, I bought my first one a year ago. I sure expected a lot more sound packages after a whole year. They also list the souns projects by the locomotive number, rather than the prime mover and options. I find this odd as well, although there is a fairly decent dicription noting what the person nticed about that particular locomotive.
By contrast the Loksound site has close to a hundred sound packages, most even preconfigured with different types of horns, and with or without dynamic brakes. They have nearly all the different cylinder configurations of all the major American builders, both current and historical as well.
I must say this is no contest, even considering the potential language barrier.
Also noted was that the Digitrax seems to have only a simple CV checklist to modify, whereas the Loksound programmer has all sorts of stuff that is configurable both by direct CV or by named feature, allowing fine tuning of the drive system as well as the sound.
I sure hope Digitrax steps up their system, as it apears to me that those Germans are way ahead.
It's going to cost me $450 to put Loksound in each F unit lashup. I could do it with Digitrax for $160 if I only put sound in A units.
jwhitten hadn't really considered doing it that way but now that we're talking about it, its at least worth investigating the cost. I don't mind stuffing the boards if it gets the cost down. I have a lot of the parts probably on-hand in my parts bin. I'm guessing they use some PIC variant.
*cringe*
They are a lil bit more complicated than a simple "PIC" program that runs your "singing bass on a wall" You would have to follow the DCC protocol exactly. You would have to program your installed decoder and your homebrew sound decoder with the same address. Your homebrew sound decoder address would have to support the "lock" protocol. You would then have to support speed syncing if you have chuffs (steam). Then you have to install an incredibly small operational amplifier that supports 1 Watt@8 Ohms with low heat disappation. Constructing all this yourself will take up considerably more room than a brand new decoder!
In other words, "Unless you have a TON of time on your hands- for-gedda-a-bout it!"
I have extensive experience with both QSI, Soundtraxx, MRC, and Loksound. Soon I will do my first QSI Revolution conversion.
Of the 3, a properly installed Soundtraxx sounds ever so slightly better on steam/diesel using QSI deep bass speakers. (Be sure to Re-eq them!) The Soundtraxx also offers auto-grade change, start and stop horns. In other words when the train changes grades, it will automatically sound the proper toot sequence for a grade change. (yes it can detect this) It will also do the proper horn signals for starting and stopping. This feature is optional and can be turned off.
However QSI has the most configuration options. The outputs on the new QSI Revolution are rated @ 5 Volts, but already have a resistor inline, so you are ready for 1.5V bulbs and LED's without additional resistors! However the QSI uses something called "Primary and Secondary" indexes for programming. That means you have to set two CV's to program 1 register. *argh*
MRC was a disaster. While CV's are easy to program, it's just not flexible enough. For example I purchased 1 Athearn Genesis A-B unit and another Athearn Gensis F7-A unit to do an A-B-A. The last A unit didn't run at the same speed as the first two. With the MRC, there is no speed table, and no way to speed compensate the second unit to match the first two. It creates problems when trying to consist them. :-(
I forgot to mention: MRC's Brilliance doesn't work well on the programming track. So programming 4 digit addresses is a major pain in the duckass. Even though it takes (if you program 1 CV at a time) it will report "failure" on all the major DCC systems that I know of.
Other than that, the prime mover sounds great on the MRC.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Apart from the ones they did for some Kato modern diesels (hence the loco number), the sound files are supplied by some user making them. And apparantly there isn't a whole lot of interest in making them for the Digitrax decoders. At least not yet. The trolley one is interesting, alas I am not a traction modeler.
Be curious to know though, how long the Loksound decoders were out until their library was built up the way it is - considering there are a lot of American prototype sounds in there.
It might also pay to look at the various user groups - other people may have created sounds but not uploaded them to the manufacturer site - the Loksound Reading T-1 file with whistle, bell, and other sounds taken from the American Freedom Train is one example, created by a user who bought the PCM T-1 and modified the sound files to his liking.
If I can add my opinion/experiences.
I just recently bought a QSI with programmable whistles for my RS-1. I put it in a number of different ways and had trouble in all configurations, including ones that I was advised by experts worked!
In the end, it appears that a slight twist in the board has ruined the sound portion and it is now returned with the engine to see if it can be repaired.
Also I put a TCS in a Broadway Limited Mikado with sound (piece of cake!) but have yet to figure out how to get the 2 decoders to "speak" to each other. Right now, I have sound and no power.
So my is that this venture is not for near novices like myself.
I had an oppertunity to replace the Reading T1 Loksound with a file supplied by Nick Kulp and realized during the learning process what I would need to add to my arsenal to make the file go into the engine. I sold the T1 off. Maybe one day another will make a QSI T1 and will be able to take the file to that chip or have a sound that is closer to the real one. The biggest complaint had with loksound was the decoder will play a whistle in a fixed loop. There was no different between one person or another throwing the whistle as does happen on the QSI. Try to toot a QSI and get "Toot." throw a toot on a loksound and it becomes a fixed time value of tooooot.
Yea right.
Oh, something else I realized tonight. I had a set of ABBA idling in one end of a runaround recieving outbounds being coupled onto it by the two switchers lashed together. The roar in the room was something. When the E units showed up with thier pax trains, the roar just got a notch louder.... I think Im going to have to calm the engine volumes down again to where I can hear one about 6 feet away so that the other side of the room will have a chance to have a voice that is heard.