Hi,
Once again, I've got a couple of probably basic DCC questions for which I cannot find an answer. Yes, I did look at the Digitrax board, but without success. So......
1. Is the term "Loco net" (which I assume is associated with Digitrax) the name of their system for moving DCC info from controller to loco or ???
2. Digitrax offers the Super Chief in 5 and 8 amps. If one bought the 8 amp system, and had a 5 amp power supply, would the layout get 8 amps or just "5 of the 8" amps? I am surely missing something here, but can't put my finger on it.
Thanks for your help!
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Loco Net is Digitrax' term for the controller bus (Local Area Network) wiring that goes around the layout for the plug-in throttles and other devices.
Using an 8 Amp system with only 5 Amps of power input will put out less than 5 Amps, and may not work at all if it is so underpowered.
Unless you're planning on a huge layout running many locomotives at the same time, you won't need anywhere near 8 Amps of power, but your power supply needs to match or even exceed the requirements of the DCC system.
Using a 10 Amp power supply with an 8 Amp system will still result in only 8 Amps of output, but using a power supply with a lower rating than the system requires can cause overheating of the power supply and erratic operation.
I've got a Lenz system, which is 5 amps. When I first got it, I powered it from an old train transformer that probably put out no more than 1 amp. It ran just fine until I needed more than the transformer could supply. At that point, my trains started to run slower, but otherwise the system continued to function. I've got a train-cam with a DCC power supply, and that simply refused to work at all at the lower voltage.
I replaced the old tranformer with a 5-amp NCE supply, and life has been good ever since.
I took a look at the Digitrax site, and the price difference between the 5 and 8 amp Chiefs is only 20 bucks. I'd go for the 8, even though I might never need it.
8 amps is a lot, by the way. It would be good sense to break your layout up into multiple zones, each with its own circuit breaker. It makes tracing down problems much easier.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
1. Loconet refers to the Digitrax network on the control or command station side of the booster. It links the various throttles, command stations, and boosters. Loconet does not connect to track power. Loconet moves the command information from the throttle to the command station, and from the command station to the booster. The output of the booster provides both track power and DCC signal to the track. The latter is usually called the power or track bus. Loconet is low power digital signal only (no track power), and can use multi-conductor telecommunications cable.
2. The 5 amp power supply would limit system output to 5 amps, regardless of whether the Super Chief is rated at 8 amps or 5 amps. Key in all situations is circuit breaker set up. The circuit breaker must be set to trip at the LOWEST maximum current rating of any component. This includes the wiring as well as the DCC system booster and power supply. If the circuit breaker does not trip at a level which protects all components, then you stand a real chance of letting magic smoke of the low-rated component.
As alluded to in other posts, 8 amps is getting into welding territory for our model trains. Wheels may get pitted, and wire connections may not be happy with close to 8 amps flowing continuously. Most layouts with an 8 amp DCC system break down the power into several power districts, and limit the current in each district to a lower level. Unless you are planning to have the layout, track, throttles, and locomotive fleet to run more than 8 sound-equipped locomotives simultaneously, the 5 amp system is adequate. If you choose an 8 amp system, and leave the circuit breaker set for 8 amps, makes sure the wiring can handle 8 amps without excessive voltage drop. 8 amps might easily drive you to 12 gauge power bus wiring, assuming the wire run lengths are commensurate with the amount of track required to run so many locomotives at once.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
I would NOT try to run an 8 amp booster with a 5 amp power supply. Even before you reach the load limit and the 5 amp power supply cuts out from overload, the voltgae can drop - at first this will cuase the trains to slow down As it gets closer and closer to the limit, the input voltgae can go low enough to make the command station do bizzare things - like forget what locos it is controlling, or makign some run full speed The command station is a computer, so you want to keep it reasonably well-fed.
The tiny price difference between the 5 amp and 8 amp version makes it very attractive - but an 8 amp power suppyl usually costs quite a bit more than a 5 amp. You can always use a larger power supply, but it should have the output fused or protected somehow at whatever the maximum current of the command station/booster is. For example, if you happened on a 15VAC 32amp power supply (dunno where - maybe a welder? LOL) you could theoretically run four 8 amp boosters from it - but you'd want an 8 amp fuse/circuit breaker in line with each one and the power supply mainly to protect the booster. 15 volts at 35 amps is 525 watts - that's a lot of power to be messing with. Stick to the smaller stuff and just use more than one if you need more power to the rails. Another example, a friend of mine is usualng an old Lionel transformer set to 15 volts to power his Super Chief. Since the Lionel unit can put out well over 5 amps, he has a 5 amp circuit breaker wired between it and the DCS100 - perfectly safe, it won't blow up either the DCS100 or the transformer should something happen.
--Randy.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Thank you all for the input, I believe I understand.......
Loconet is a Digitrax buzzword for their part of the system that moves the information packages.
Regarding the 5 amp / 8 amp of the Super Chief systems, I am still a bit perplexed. "It seems to me", that if Digitrax were to offer an 8 amp system, that they would offer an 8 amp power supply. From what I can tell, they offer 3, 5, and a 20 amp power supply - but no 8 amp. My old school logic can't comprehend why.......
The main reason I'm so interested is that as that I am trying to settle on the components for a DCC system to be installed when I rebuild my existing HO layout. I currently use two 5 amp MRC Controlmaster 20s (DC of course). The new layout will be similar to the existing one, which I regularly run 2 all powered ABBA consists at a time, plus while letting them run I move a couple of switchers around at the same time. Also, with DCC I intend to get into sound too.
Soooo, I am pretty well convinced that I want a total of 10 amps power, but split into 4 power districts. To do this, I guess I would need a 5 amp super chief, a second 5 amp booster, two 5 amp power supplies, and of course a second controller (for convenience or a second operator). Is this a good shopping list? Or ????????
Thank you !
mobilman44Soooo, I am pretty well convinced that I want a total of 10 amps power, but split into 4 power districts. To do this, I guess I would need a 5 amp super chief, a second 5 amp booster, two 5 amp power supplies, and of course a second controller (for convenience or a second operator). Is this a good shopping list? Or ???????? Thank you !
Probably the best way would be to get a Super Chief set and a Empire Builder set. This will net you one DCS100, one DB150, and two DT400. I don't remember if power supplies are included in the sets.
I have heard the DCS200 (8 amp) has a few extra features that the DCS100 doesn't have, but I cannot confirm this.
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
Our Club has a 20 amp Digitrax PS running a DCS200(8 amp) command station & a DB200(8 amp) booster. The DCS200/DB200 have their own current limiting protection. The 20 power supply is not going to drive the 4 extra amps through either unless the command station or booster turned unto a dad short and burned up. Once the PS hits 20 amps, it is going to shut down.
Now in the case of a DCS200(8 amp) command station being powered with a 5 amp PS - what Randy described is exactly what is going to happen. You will not damage the DCS200, but operation may get flakey once the draw on the command station exceeds 5 amps. Adding a 5 amp breaker is added 'protection' so you do not get to to that point.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
WSOR 3801 mobilman44 Soooo, I am pretty well convinced that I want a total of 10 amps power, but split into 4 power districts. To do this, I guess I would need a 5 amp super chief, a second 5 amp booster, two 5 amp power supplies, and of course a second controller (for convenience or a second operator). Is this a good shopping list? Or ???????? Thank you ! Probably the best way would be to get a Super Chief set and a Empire Builder set. This will net you one DCS100, one DB150, and two DT400. I don't remember if power supplies are included in the sets. I have heard the DCS200 (8 amp) has a few extra features that the DCS100 doesn't have, but I cannot confirm this.
mobilman44 Soooo, I am pretty well convinced that I want a total of 10 amps power, but split into 4 power districts. To do this, I guess I would need a 5 amp super chief, a second 5 amp booster, two 5 amp power supplies, and of course a second controller (for convenience or a second operator). Is this a good shopping list? Or ???????? Thank you !
The DCS200 and DCS100 are identical other than the amps. It's the booster, DB200 and DB150, that are different. The DB150 5 amp version can also act as a command station (and does, in teh Super Empire Builder set). The DB200 200 amp booster does not have any command station functionality, it is strictly a booster.
The suggestion on wat to buy is a good one, if you want two throttles right from the start. The price of the Super Empire Builder set is less than the price of a DB150 plus the price of a DT400, so buying the 'set' if you need both is the way to go. With two sets you'll also get two UP5 plug-in panels. Power supplies do not come with either set. If you happen to buy from a dealer who also sells NCE - get NCE's 15 volt 5 amp power supply, it's $15-$20 less than the Digitrax one and it's the same power supply built by some random OEM company (neither NCE or Digitrax makes their own 5 amp power supplies, nor do they make the 12 volt wall warts that power certain accessories, nor do they make the slightly bigger wall warts such as the one used to power the Zephyr. The PS2012, Digitrax might make that, or at least installs it in a case designed to their specs).
--Randy
You want an 8 amp power supply for an 8 amp booster. There's one thing that hasn't been mentioned yet that can happen using a lower current power supply. The over current device (circuit breaker) inside an 8 amp unit will not trip if it cannot get 8 amps in. 5 amps will weld wheels to rail but not trip the breaker inside an 8 amp booster.
If you decide on an 8 amp unit, external circuit breakers set at lower current levels are highly recommended. We have three 8 amp boosters on our NTRAK layout. They are each powered by ten amp power supplies. Each 8 amp booster is connected to two PM42 power managers. The PM42 outputs are each set to 3 amps.
As far as a suitable Power supply, Digitrax offers the PS2012 to handle the 8 amp boosters. They are an excellent supply but a little pricey unless you have two boosters to power.
The Magna Force MF615 will safely output a little over 9 amps at 12 volts.It's an excellent 8 amp booster power supply for N Scale.
Martin Myers
I own the Digitrax 2012 that is able to provide two sources of 10 amp power, however I use a PS515 5 amp on my DCS 200 the Chief. So far I have not had any issues with loss of power because I only run a few trains at most and my wiring is 14 gauge bus with 20 gauge feeder over very short distances to the local boards.
Once I solve the connecting issues I have with the 2012 power supply, I will be feeding the Chief once again with it.
Loconet is not just a "Buzzword" it is a actual system where data to and from all decoders, sensors and anything connecting it to the Digitrax Chief/command station is the system which controls the entire layout. Very much like a MDF and/or IDF controls your building's computer networks. Basically Loconet = ethernet to me.
The DCS200 I own is no different than the DB150 sitting next to the computer in the other room other than being able to handle more amps, read back decoder values etc. The DB150 is strictly a JMRI connection. If I ever get expanded on my layout, the DB150 will be wired as a Slave and then tied to the loconet to recieve commands from the DCS200 to engines to the new expansion power district.
Dont let all this digitrax stuff confuse you.
My layout is like a wedding cake in layers.
First layer. Track and feeders.
Second layer. Power Bus with local boards to feed groups of feeders divided equally around the layout.
Third layer Loconet. That goes to and from the command station to any thing I put on it... example...
Forth layer DS64 stationary switch decoders. I throw the switches with them. These also recieve power with thier own wall warts. TOTALLY independant and they are connected by loconet cable to the command station.
Fifth layer (And probably the final layer.) The SE Signal board with thier own inputs and outputs tied to the loconet to complete the entire Digitrax cake.
A 6th layer if possible will be street lights, building lighting etc. But here, I will be getting into places choked with all the other layers I might just skip this one. Or run it off a standard DC power pack.
So many layers, yet so simple.
One thing before I forget.
Every new track you install during construction and connect to your Command station needs testing with a Quarter. Placing a US Quarter across both rails makes a short and your command station should beep and quit. After a moment or so it will come back after you remove the quarter.
If you can quarter test the entire layout and have the system feel the short and respond appropriately without any trouble then you are fine.
Watch out for the slow shorts that dont make the system trip. Those slowly cook until something welds or burns.
The PS2012 power supply and the DCS200 8 amp Chief feels these shorts and work to protect you fast. But.. if you have a PS 515 on your power and you get shorted you probably will have to unplug the PS515 for a minute or so to allow it to thermal reset.
I have no experience with circut breakers yet between the DCS200 and the Track. I would have no trouble placing a 3 amp protection at each of the local power bus boards but I would have to think about things like how fast can the local breaker trip and shut off the short before the parent chief feels the short and tries to shut down?
Another consideration is the number of engines on your railroad. one or three on start up is fine. But if you have many, the rush to feed them all at once in one area like a roundhouse may be a bit much for your system. If you have many engines in a small area like a roundhouse, each track can have a dead man toggle wired to it. That way you can really cut power when you put the particular engine away after a run.
Hi!
I figured out early in my DCC education process that I would put toggles on the engine terminal tracks - if for nothing else to keep the "noise" down.
Ha, I still have my original query in mind...... Why would Digitrax put out an 8 amp system and not have a matching power supply? No big deal, but it seems odd to me.
Thanks all for the pointers!
At the time there were lots of people offering power supplies - sometimes these were 'kits' where they handed you a box full of bits like a transformer, fuse, and toggle switch and it was up to you to put it in a case. After all, all a power supply for a DCC system usually needs to be is a simple 15-18VAC transformer with a plug and a fuse. But I think Tony stopped selling his, and another big supplier, Loy's Toys, just shut down as the owner has retired.
I also really REALLY hate that Tony's pushes the MagnaForce power supply as capable of driving an 8 amp booster. The graph in their test does not back that up - it can NOT supply 8 amps continuously and maintain output voltage. If the thing is really an 8 amp power supply then why is it not rated as such?
To stay all Digitrax, you'd need the PS2012 and a pair of 8 amp breakers - they supply 5 amp breakers with it. You could run two 8 amp boosters at HO voltage. A bit pricey for that though. Of course, if you can find a plain old 15 volt 8 amp transformer - those aren't particularly cheap either. CVP sells an 8 amp power supply for use with their ZoneMaster boosters - good price, too. And it's a true 8 amp power supply. And looking at their flyer - it seems to be some sort of universal laptop supply type of thing.
The whole power supply thing is a bit whacky. There are all kinds of sources, and sometimes the exact same device will be sold for different purposes or with a different description for a vastly different price. Key thing is to match the voltage and current rating.
Yea, they supply a Y Cable with the Digitrax 2012 and then tell you that you can drive TWO 5 amps off those cabling with fuses to match.
Would like to see a little more consistency and see TWO 8 AMP fused wires made for the 2012.
Because of this, Im about... tempted to ask for a ground fault protection outlet to be installed on that house wall. 5 milliamps of short will kill that room faster than the house can feel it at the main breaker.
Ive always had a sneaking feeling that Digitrax simply swiped a CB 12 volt radio supply and stamped it with thier logo and beefed it up a bit. Dont mis understand me, it puts out 12 volts that I like very much and about ready to drive the old Cobra out of it. Breaker internet anyone got ears on? LOL.
Finally but not last, Ive begun to think about placing a Cyberpower UPS 1500AVR behind the power supply. Electricity in my area aint the best. It tends to be dirty in a strong wind or when there are too many football games some nights in my area drawing off good quality power.
Cheers.
Randy,
Thanks for your input/explanations. As a retired business analyst, I try to make sense out of situations that just aren't sensical. So be it.
You and so many others have done a remarkable job educating me and helping me make the difficult decision to go to DCC. I thank you all for that.
I'm in the middle of the new layout design, and will begin the teardown process and room freshening after the Holidays. Sometime during the building of the benchwork or laying track I'll place my DCC system order. Thankfully, I have 5 BLI Paragon ATSF Locos with decoders/sound, so I'll have something ready when the switch is turned on.
Of course I'll have questions between now and then, and before I spend the bucks I'll put my parts order list out on the Forum for you all to critique.
Thanks,
Last Chance Yea, they supply a Y Cable with the Digitrax 2012 and then tell you that you can drive TWO 5 amps off those cabling with fuses to match. Would like to see a little more consistency and see TWO 8 AMP fused wires made for the 2012. Because of this, Im about... tempted to ask for a ground fault protection outlet to be installed on that house wall. 5 milliamps of short will kill that room faster than the house can feel it at the main breaker. Ive always had a sneaking feeling that Digitrax simply swiped a CB 12 volt radio supply and stamped it with thier logo and beefed it up a bit. Dont mis understand me, it puts out 12 volts that I like very much and about ready to drive the old Cobra out of it. Breaker internet anyone got ears on? LOL. Finally but not last, Ive begun to think about placing a Cyberpower UPS 1500AVR behind the power supply. Electricity in my area aint the best. It tends to be dirty in a strong wind or when there are too many football games some nights in my area drawing off good quality power. Cheers.
Ground fault outlets are a good idea - but that's more to protect you than any equipment. The trip of with 5ma of current flowing between a hot wire and ground, ie your hand touching a bare lead on a power cord while standing on the concrete.
Would be nice if they offered 8 amp breakers in case someone wanted to use a DCS200 or DB200. If you are using the N scale setting (12V) you can run four 5 amp boosters - they give you the wye cable to connect 2, and do sell additional wye cables so you can hook up the other two, but nothing for the 8 amp. My guess is they don't sell very many of the 8 amp boosters so this is why they don't bother.
I don't think it's a CB power supply, those all run around 13.8 volts to match the car's electrical system and don't go up to 18 or 20 volts like the PS2012. However - if you are using the N scale setting for 12 volts to the track, a power supply like that is a great option. 13.8 DC in is enough for the booster to reliably put 12V to the track. They used to be cheap, or maybe you already have one. The N scale setting is actually plenty fine for me, using HO - the Zephyr puts out about 12.5 volts and all my HO locos ran plenty fast enough, so I don't see a need to put 14.5 on the track.
mobilman44 Loconet is a Digitrax buzzword for their part of the system that moves the information packages. Mobilman44
Actually, it's much more than a buzzword. LocoNet is very much a network architecture rather than just the "polled buss" that most other DCC manufacturers use.
As such, it's easy to add ability simply by plugging in a new device. There is practically no limit to that ability, either, because the command station doesn't have to know about or assign an address to the new device. No using up another one of your limited buss addresses every time you plug something in. As a matter of fact, you can even run a stand-alone LocoNet without a command station!
Also, it generally has a higher capacity because it's event-driven rather than polled. In other words, when a device has something to "say" to the LocoNet, it listens first to see if another device is talking, and if not, it sends it's message. On the other hand, on a polled buss, the command station has to ask each device if it has something to say, and then wait for an answer.
More info about LocoNet here: http://www.digitrax.com/faqloconetdetails.php
Steve
Mobilman44,When Digitrax started out over 15 years ago, they didn't offer any power supplies at all. IIRC, at the time they didn't have the resources (AKA money) to get UL listed power supplies to the market at a price that would be competitive with conventional power supplies.
Also, since DCC is an international product, folks overseas would be buying their own power supplies compatible with their own electricity demands anyways.
It's only been recently that Digitrax has been offering power supplies (I believe the Zephyr was the first DCC system to come with it's own power supply).
As for why they have a 20amp but no 8amp, I'm guessing because they sell more 5amp systems than 8amp systems, and one can put 4 of the 5amp systems on that 20amp supply.
Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
I use this power supply with my 8 amp superchief:
http://www.johnshobbies.com/store/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=50&products_id=845
And it is plugged into the UPS that is there for the computer which is right beside it.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Digitrax PS12 and PS315 (Zephyr power supply) are the only two that are UL Listed.PS515 and PS2012 are not. They are SELV Class 2 rated.Magna Force MF615 is also SELV class 2 but is not UL Listed.Of course Loy's Model Train Fuel and the old Springhaven Shops PT16 were kits and had no outside certifications.Not sure of the 3 NCE power supplies because I've never inspected one in person. I can't see a UL logo on the P114 on their web site but it could be UL listed. No way the P1018 has it.
All of the above are excellent, safe supplies. If UL listed is desired, shop carefully.