Hi!
Ok, you all have put up with my DCC questions for a couple of months now, and I believe I am going to make the jump. From what reading I have done and with my limited understanding, it looks like Digitrax is the manufacturer I will go with. The rebuilt HO layout will occupy 11x15 ft, two levels, with no more than two operators. Maximum locos run at one time will be two all powered ABBA consists, and two or three switchers hooked together - for a total of 11 powered units. My BLI steamers all have Quantum sound, and I suspect sound will hit the diesels with time. The track will be Atlas flex with Atlas turnouts. Turnouts will be powered via a separate powerpack (if desireable).
I "assume" 10 amps will serve me all the power I need (I would rather be overpowered than underpowered). Therefore, if I bought the Digitax 5 amp Super Empire Builder and added a second booster and controller, plus two 5 amp power plants, that would be the bulk of the system needs. Note that I am not going wireless (this is a big enough jump as it is).
Obviously my questions for you all is: Is the above power requirements and unit assumptions OK?, and what else do I need? By the way, I'm not looking into decoders at this time, just the system itself.
Money is not a major factor, and I am looking for something that will serve me well without having to be upgraded in the near future.
Thanks to all!!!
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Five Amps should be more than adequate for the number of trains you intend to operate, even if all of them have sound decoders in them. Fifteen Amps is, in my opinion, overkill to the extreme for the size layout you have.
i have a radio equiped empire builder on my home n scale layout. i can have several operators running a dozen or more locos at a time. it's a five amp system. no power problems here. my club has two dcc systems. an empire builder on our n scale layout and a super chief on our ho layout. before we bought the super chief the empire bulider ran the ho layout and the n scale layout together. no problrms. plenty of power for both. we then upgraded to the super chief for the ho layout and the empire builder went to the n scale layout. we also have a 20' x 20' modular ho layout that we take to shows and use the empire builder to run it because it is installed in a portable stand. we started to have problems at shows with the db150 shutting down every so often then coming back on. the problem was because we were running too many sound locos (6) at the same time and the current drawn was making the db150 operate at it's maximum current output and it would shut down the track power until it cooled down a little. lighted passenger cars didn't help either. we now use the superchief at shows with its 8 amp power supply with no shutdowns. i am installing a small computor fan to blow air onto the heatsink to keep the temp down. the tech at digitrax confirmed the heat problem and suggested the fan.
if you can afford the superchief go for it. get the 8 amp version. and go radio not ir. i don't think you will need a second booster if you go with the 8 amp system. you may want to put in some power districts in case of shorts caused by derailments.
8 amps would probably be enough for 11 locos. You cna always ad dmore later. Get apower supply that actually puts out 8 amps - I do not agree with Tony's recommendation to use the MagnaForce power supply for the 8 amp Chief - it's NOT an 8 amp power supply and their own tests show while it can supply 8 amps for a short time it cannot do so continuously. 8 amp power supplies are tough to come by, although you could make your own if you can find an appriate pwoer transformer. Put it in an enclosure with switch, fuse, and pilot light on the AC input side (grounded cord!), and circuit breaker on the low voltage output side. The other option is Digitrax's PS2012 - but even they only supply 5 amp breakers for it, you'll have to find 8 amp ones. The PS2012 could power two 8 amp boosters if you ever need more power later. The price difference between the 5 amp and 8 amp system is only about $20, the only problem is the power supply. Everyone and their brother has 5 amp power supplies.
Notice I said Super Chief - as did others replying to this. DO NOT get the Super Empire Builder as your only system. There's no CV readback, no dedicated programming track, among other things. And just those two make life with DCC MUCH easier.
To keep everyone from yelling when someone goofs or derails, you'll want to divide the layout into pwoer districts. Think giant DC blocks. You don't need to section it in nearly as many or as small a section as you would to install dual cab DC control. The main idea here is so that someone running off the rails and shorting the track in the yard won't cause every mainline train to also stop. Depending on your track plan, maybe 2-4 sections on each level. Sticking with Digitrax components, this would mean one or more PM-42 power managers. The PM-42 requires a small 12v transformer to power it - the PS12 can run two of them.
You will probably want some additional UP-5 panels to plug the throttles in so you can walk around with your trains.
Another thought, while 8 amps will probably be enough, you could start with TWO sets - a 5 amp Super Chief and a 5 amp Super EMpire Builder. The Super Chief's DCS100 would be the command station, the DB150 in the Super EMpire Builder would be the plain booster. This would net you 10 amps, use readily available 5 amp power supplies, and give you two DT400 throttles, so you'd be all set to ahve a second operator. Also you'd have two UP5 panels to start with. It would eb stretching it with just two panels, you'd probably want 2 more for a total of 4 to fully reach all areas of the layout. Each booster would drive one of the PM42's to power 4 power districts from each booster.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I would NOT get the Super EB starter set - you will have the oldest Digitrax technology. Get a Super Chief set - it does CV 'read back', and you will be kicking yourself later. I have a 5 amp Chief command station(DCS100) and it really handles all of my layout(usually 6 sound steamers, 3 sound diesels, and 5-6 non-sound diesels on the layout a 'power up' time. I did get a DB100a 5 amp booster later(too good of a deal at the LHS), so I have10 amps of capacity. It was added so that I would not 'hit the wall' when all of those sound engines go through 'current in-rush' at power up or after a short circuit. For right now, I think you should just buy the DCS100 and 'see' how it goes. You can always get a booster.
Our club has a 8 amp command station and two 8 amp boosters. Even with all of that power, we can shut down booster with too many sound engines parked in the yard/engine terminal! We have 16 PM42 units on the layout and have set a limit of the number of engines that can be parked in any single power district.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Go with the 5 amp Super Chief, you will be happy you did. Many tout the readback ability of the Chief system but quite frankly it can be worked around. What you will come to hate about an Empire builder is the lack of a separate programming output. You will have to turn the layout off to do anything other than Operations mode programming with an EB. The first time you need to do some programming in the middle of an operating session the Chief will prove its value.
Since you are planning on two operators compare the price of an Empire Builder starter set instead of purchasing a second DT400 throttle and DB150 booster separately. The two boosters give you two power districts. I do recommend circuit breakers to break each power district into smaller subdistricts. Since you are HO scale and running sound decoders, Tony's PSX series circuit breakers are the way to go. These can handle the inrush current better than Digitrax PM42's.
You will also need UP5 jacks and cables. Consider purchasing a decent crimper and make your own. Over time, the crimper will pay for itself in reduced aggravation. Enough to make it convenient for operators to plug the throttles in without climbing over each other. You be the judge on that.
Martin Myers
rrinker Notice I said Super Chief - as did others replying to this. DO NOT get the Super Empire Builder as your only system. There's no CV readback, no dedicated programming track, among other things. And just those two make life with DCC MUCH easier. --Randy
jrbernier I would NOT get the Super EB starter set - you will have the oldest Digitrax technology. Get a Super Chief set - it does CV 'read back', and you will be kicking yourself later.
I would NOT get the Super EB starter set - you will have the oldest Digitrax technology. Get a Super Chief set - it does CV 'read back', and you will be kicking yourself later.
What they said.
Steve
Stevert rrinker Notice I said Super Chief - as did others replying to this. DO NOT get the Super Empire Builder as your only system. There's no CV readback, no dedicated programming track, among other things. And just those two make life with DCC MUCH easier. --Randy jrbernier I would NOT get the Super EB starter set - you will have the oldest Digitrax technology. Get a Super Chief set - it does CV 'read back', and you will be kicking yourself later. What they said. Steve
What Steve said.
mfm37 Since you are planning on two operators compare the price of an Empire Builder starter set instead of purchasing a second DT400 throttle and DB150 booster separately. The two boosters give you two power districts. I do recommend circuit breakers to break each power district into smaller subdistricts. Since you are HO scale and running sound decoders, Tony's PSX series circuit breakers are the way to go. These can handle the inrush current better than Digitrax PM42's. Martin Myers
Precisely what I always say - and what I say the whoel reason they keep the Super EMpire Builder set around. Every place I've looked, the set is cheaper than a DB150 plus DT400 purchased seperately - plus you get a $15 UP5. If you need a second throttle and a second booster, go straight to the SEB.
Mobilman44,If I was wiring your described layout (and money was no object), then I would go with a DCS200 8amp Chief and a DB200 8amp booster, one for each level. Eight amps is more than enough power for what you describe, but better safe then sorry. Don't forget, sound locos that are just sitting still are sucking power on start-up due to their capacitors. So if you have 8 F-units with sound, plus three switchers with sound, plus any locos with sound that you have sitting around the roundhouse, well...that all adds up. For a layout your size with the locos you want, I'd go 8-amp and not worry about it. Oh, and I'd use the Digitrax power supply, too.
As everyone else has said, you'll want that seperate programming track that the Empire Builder lacks, so go with the Chief for a layout your size. I use a DCS50 Zephyr that powers my entire 25'x50' HO 3-Operator layout, but it's one level with 200' of mainline and only two sound locos, so my power requirements are far less than yours.
Our club is using Tony's PSX circuit breakers (and older PSIII and PS(One) types). We're up to 36 of these, and generally each mainline PSX powers 4 mainline blocks. For a layout like yours, perhaps one to a yard, 2 to 4 on the mainline.
I highly recommend getting radio throttles. It's made a world of difference for both my home and club layouts. You may want to wait for the DT402D (and UR92) 2-way radio throttles coming soon, but the DT400R (and UR91) are nothing to sneeze at, either. Even with radios, getting a bunch of UP5's will go a long way, too. I put them wherever you are making up MU's or breaking them (engine facilities, yards, etc.) or around every 6 to 10 feet (depending on layout design). There may come a day when you loose control of a train, and you'll want a convienient UP5 to plug into quickly.
For advanced users, I would also put in block detection in the form of a BDL168's (each does 16 blocks). You haven't said how long your mainline is, so maybe only 16 blocks will do. I like these as they can interface with a computer for dispatching, and they can light up LED's on the fascia or some other control panel (we have 8 of these at our club). It also is used to control the signaling using SE8c's (each does 32 signal heads). The BDL168's also is the key for Transponding with RX8's (Transponding is 2-way communication between the decoder and the system and allows for a lot of advanced features in DCC).
Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
"You will also need UP5 jacks and cables. Consider purchasing a decent crimper and make your own. Over time, the crimper will pay for itself in reduced aggravation. Enough to make it convenient for operators to plug the throttles in without climbing over each other. You be the judge on that."
Would the UP5 cable you refer to be the same as CAT5 computer cable?
When I google UP5 cable that is what comes up.
Mainetrains
'there's something happening here, what it is ain't exactly clear' Modeling the Hard Knox Valley Railroad in HO scale http://photos.hardknoxvalley.com/
Folks,
Thank you all for the good advice. I'm sure there is more forthcoming, and I can use all you got.
As I'm 64, and have had the existing layout for about 14 years or so, this upcoming rebuild will very likely be my last layout. I've kept track of all my "what I did right (or wrong)" on the present layout, and will incorporate all that in the new one. And of course the jump to DCC is a very big one (for me), and if I am going to do it, I want to do it right.
Thanks again,
Nahh, what he means is the 6-conductor flat telephone cable. You know, the silver satin stuff. In most houses, you'll see the 4-conductor flat silver cable. But LocoNet uses 6-cond., and getting some crimps and a good crimper is very important for any DCC layout (since they all use them).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RJ11,_RJ14,_RJ25
A "UP5" is a modular jack to plug in the RJ11 6-cond. silver satin cable from the rear, and Digitrax throttles into the front.
http://www.digitrax.com/prd_up5.php
Even if you aren't lookign to to detection and signallign right away, you cna plan for it in the wiring. For each section of track where it would be logical to have a detection section, either gather all the feeders to one spot if the distance isn't very great, or use a seperate bus to tie them together, and at a single point connect that to a terminal strip which then jumpers over to your main track bus. That way you have a place to insert the detection device, and all you need to do is cut the gaps int he track to isolate the detection section. Beats having to go back later and cut the feeders from the bus and do it all over again.
BTW, if there's one Digitrax product I probably won't use on my layout, it's the BDL168. It's too expensive per block compared to other options, it uses the diode drop method of detection which means you either have to wire detection to every point on the railroad, or experience differences in speed as the loco passes from a detected section to a non-detected section, plus it's more or less designed for a centralized wiring scheme with all of those sub busses I mentioned running all the way out to the trak they connect to. You can add the RD2 remote sensing diodes to put the detection element where the wire is, but that just ups the cost even more. I prefer the current transformer type detection, and while most of these fall into the DIY category, you can get a ready to use all wired and tested, Digitrax Loconet compatible system from RR-CirKits.
mainetrainsWould the UP5 cable you refer to be the same as CAT5 computer cable?
No absolutely not. For loconet cable it is recommended that only flat six conductor cable be used. I got this straight from AJ hisself. He said that twisted pair cabling like CAT5 can cause problems with loconet especially if care isn't taken choosing which wires to use for each of the six connections.
Randy,Using Tony's, the BDL168 is $119.95 for 16 blocks of detection. That's $7.50 per block. What other options that are out there are less expensive than that, especially one that can talk to a computer? Not to mention the ability to have bi-directional communication (aka Transponding) with the plug-n-play RX-8's.
Looking at RR-CirKits, it appears that they have a BOD-8 that's $35.95, but you also need the CT Coil Set (8 pieces) at $13.60 for a total of $49.55. Per block, that $6.20. And you still need to run wires from the BOD-8 to the CT Coils on every block (sub-busses, if you will). It looks like you'd have to buy the Tower Controller TC-64 to interface with the LocoNet, and that's $108.95. If you wanted 64 blocks of detection (maxing out the TC-64), RR-CirKits would cost you $7.90 per block ($505.35 divided by 64). If you wanted 64 blocks with Digitrax, it still would cost you $7.50 per block ($479.80 divided by 64). If you cut the number of blocks down to 16, then the RR-CirKits price jumps to $13.06 per block while the BDL168 remains at only $7.50 per block.
And you say the BDL168 is too expensive?
For even less money, Digitrax does make a BD4 for $24.95 for 4 blocks ($6.24 per block), but that only lights up LED's and needs an SE8c to talk to a computer (and of course no Transponding).
BTW, we are currently using 7 BDL168's at my club, and I can say with authority that there is no difference in speed as the loco passes from a detection section to a non-detection section. All our yards have no detection, while the mainline does. We've been using BDL's for years. We started with BDL16's, and that's been a while.