I'm trying to decide which system (wireless) to buy. I've studied much about DCC and narrowed down my selection to these two products, NCE or MRC.
The basement is 23' by 24' , steps in the center. Benchwork around the wall, 2' wide on 3 walls and 5' wide along almost 1 wall to accommodate roundhouse, 130' turntable, and yard. Double tracks are now in place around the layout on cork roadbed, flextrack with Walthers DCC friendly turnouts, 3 sidings on the outer track, 2 sidings on inner track, yard facilities will be off of an inner track siding in phase II of construction. Freelance steam era.
Trackwork is finished, now I need to apply power and run trains to find the problem locations.
I intend to have a fully functional freelance signal system, including semaphores, position light, color position light, etc, so that is a strong consideration in my choice.
NCE has 5 amps and MRC has 3.5, according to the comparison chart. Cosmetically, I like the shape and appearance of the NCE, more than the MRC. I don't know anyone in my area who has either system, neither do the hobbies stores.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Steve
Agreed.
MRC might be king of the DC controller market... but on DCC thery're a little shoddy (or at least their decoders are... not so sure on the command stations/starter kits anymore -- they might've gotten better)
Unless you're talking about the NCE "pro" system (Powerhouse Pro?) , their system maxes out at 2.5 or 3A (though you can get the smart bosters that increase system capacity...), though the Procab(?) does have a 5A and possibly 10A version.
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
Other comments about NCE having lower amperage output is for their cheapest system. The PowerPro comes in 5 and 10 Amp versions.
We're running a 20 x 40 foot HO scale club layout with the PowerPro 5 Amp Radio system and two additional 5 Amp boosters because our layout is divided into three power districts. I also use NCE PowerPro Radio on my HO home layout.
As David M. Bedard wisely pointed out, being able to connect to a PC through a serial cable and use Decoder Pro for the programming of decoders is a very handy feature that MRC does not support with any of their systems.
If you decide to get the NCE PowerPro Radio system check with the dealer and insist that you receive the newest Generation 3 Radio controllers. If the dealer doesn't know, find a different dealer who does know the difference. It will save you a $25 upgrade fee.
On a side note, we are using a computer program and hardware interface called A-Track USB on our club layout, which runs rings around Decoder Pro. This software and hardware was developed for us by Dr. Terry Chamberlain, who visited from England last month to install and troubleshoot the system. His A-Track system was initially written to operate on an Atari 8-bit computer, and we had been using that version for nearly 10 years on our club layout until the Atari computers began to fail. He recently upgraded the software to run on a Windows XP based PC, and that's the version we're currently using.
Cacole,
I looked at the A-Track web site; not a lot of information there. What is so super about this product that it 'Runs Rings around Decoder Pro'?
Jim Bernier
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
jrbernier wrote: Cacole, I looked at the A-Track web site; not a lot of information there. What is so super about this product that it 'Runs Rings around Decoder Pro'?Jim Bernier
Yes, I know that Terry has not updated his web site about the new Windows XP version of A-Track because until he visited us last month to install it he wasn't sure if there weren't some bugs that needed to be ironed out. I was going to provide a link to his web site but decided against it when I saw that it has no information yet about A-Track for Windows.
He still has not decided if he will offer his software and hardware interface as a commercial product since he was only doing this as a hobby and we have the only operational copy.
I've used Decoder Pro in the past and found his software to have far more programming features built into it. As an example, if you have a QSI sound decoder you need to program, his software shows you CV by CV exactly what each one does as you scroll through them, and his software will automatically step through the Primary and Secondary Indexing.
NeO6874 wrote: MRC might be king of the DC controller market... but on DCC thery're a little shoddy (or at least their decoders are... not so sure on the command stations/starter kits anymore -- they might've gotten better)
No, there's no problem with MRC's DCC control systems. Their first ones were kinda simple but they quality has always been good from what I've seen and heard...plus their systems are expandable so you can improve the system (like adding wireless to an existing system etc.) The decoders are made under contract by another (I believe Chinese?) company, and those decoders are generally considered the bad eggs in the basket.
Are not all MRC DCC products made in China? The Prodigy and Prodigy Advance I have seen were marked as Made in China.
Digitrax, CVP, and NCE are made in the U.S., and I think Lenz is still made in Giessen, Germany. What about Piko and Zimo. They're both European companies, but where are their products made? The Bachmann Dynamis was designed by ESU but is made in China.
I've heard nothing bad about the MRC Prodigy, Prodigy Advance, or Prodigy Advance 2 but their decoders are next to worthless.
Why I don't like MRC's DCC systems.
1. MRC has designed DCC systems that can not be upgraded except by purchasing available items directly from them. They choose to keep everything a secret so that nothing else on the market will work with their systems. Some reverse engineering may be possible, but apparently there is just not enough interest in doing so. I can add my Digitrax booster to a Lenz or NCE system using instructions freely available from all three companies. They are not afraid to tell us what wire does what. MRC; OTOH, won't devulge the pin out on their systems so one is at their mercy if changes or additions are needed. Any body know how to plug an MRC into a computer and run it with JMRI?
2. They are slow to introduce add ons. Their old Prodigy system was a reasonable priced entry sytem but quite frankly, I could do much more with my 1996 Big Boy model from Digitrax. When MRC finally "upgraded". The upgrade consisted of buying a whole new proprietary system.
I believe their Prodigy Advance Throttle is one of the best layed out units on the market. Shame it took them so long to get around to it.
davidmbedard wrote: No, there's no problem with MRC's DCC control systems. Their first ones were kinda simple but they quality has always been good from what I've seen and heard...plus their systems are expandable so you can improve the system (like adding wireless to an existing system etc.) The decoders are made under contract by another (I believe Chinese?) company, and those decoders are generally considered the bad eggs in the basket.Actually, isnt that their only available expansion?David B
Actually, isnt that their only available expansion?
David B
I believe you can add later versions of the handheld controller to offer more options...for example IIRC the original MRC system only could use like 32 decoder addresses that you dialed in.
Sound's like the 5amp PowerPro will do it for you as long as you put in a 12 awg buss to feed the layout. If you're going to run more than 8-10 locos simultaneously then consider deviding the layout into 2 or more districts (like blocks) and get a second 5amp booster. For HO it's better to use multiples of 5amp boosters over a single 10amp booster. First off, 10 amps at 14 volts can be dangerous to the touch and it's actually intended for the larger scales.
I switched to DCC & NCE 2 years ago and haven't looked back, I love the system and the support.
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
While I may agree that a 12awg bus could be larger than needed, I certainly wouldn't recommend 16awg with no knowledge of the layout, its size, number of feeders and location of booster(s).
Having done quite a few voltage drop tests on wire and connectors for NTRAK, there have never been any electrical problems found that were caused by too large wire. Plenty by too small wire though.
Martin Myers
davidmbedard wrote: mfm37 wrote:While I may agree that a 12awg bus could be larger than needed, I certainly wouldn't recommend 16awg with no knowledge of the layout, its size, number of feeders and location of booster(s).Having done quite a few voltage drop tests on wire and connectors for NTRAK, there have never been any electrical problems found that were caused by too large wire. Plenty by too small wire though.Martin Myers Calgary Freemo uses 16awg for the bus and regularily run 400+ foot mainlines...David B
mfm37 wrote:While I may agree that a 12awg bus could be larger than needed, I certainly wouldn't recommend 16awg with no knowledge of the layout, its size, number of feeders and location of booster(s).Having done quite a few voltage drop tests on wire and connectors for NTRAK, there have never been any electrical problems found that were caused by too large wire. Plenty by too small wire though.Martin Myers
Calgary Freemo uses 16awg for the bus and regularily run 400+ foot mainlines...
I have to agree with Martin on this one. Without knowing how many boosters, and where they're located, it's impossible to determine the proper wire size.
Let's use that 400 foot mainline as an example, and assume that there's a single booster right in the middle.
16AWG has a resistance of about 4 ohms per 1000 feet. From the booster out to either end of the mainline is 400 feet round trip (Remember, there's resistance in both buss wires so you have to calculate the resistance out and back), which gives us about 1.6 ohms. At 12 volts and 2.5 amps, that 1.6 ohms will give you a 4.16 volt drop, leaving you with 7.84 volts at either end. Not enough for reliable DCC operation.
But changing only the wire size to 12 AWG (1.6 ohms per 1000'), we get only a 1.63 volt drop at either end. Better, but I'd still go with an even larger AWG for that distance, or more boosters spread out along the mainline.
Bottom line is that the proper AWG depends on the application.
Is that 200 feet each way from a single booster in the center or 400 feet one way?
I assume the coin test works all the way out at the end? It didn't when I tested 16 awg at 50feet. Of course that included a bunch of Cinch jones plugs as well.
BTW, we decided that larger wire was cheaper than additional boosters and power supplies.
The latter being the only option when voltage drop becomes an issue.
As a DCC newbie, I've seen and used the NCE system when I was a member of the Suncoast Model Railroader's Club. I enjoyed running trains with it and found it user friendly once I started to read the manual that was at the club. I especailly enjoyed the consisting feature, programmable momentum, and of course the sound and lighting actuation features.
My current layout is under construction, but will be powered by NCE once its finished. I'm done with DC.
It can't be overstated: READ THE MANUAL
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
mfm37 wrote: Is that 200 feet each way from a single booster in the center or 400 feet one way?I assume the coin test works all the way out at the end? It didn't when I tested 16 awg at 50feet. Of course that included a bunch of Cinch jones plugs as well. BTW, we decided that larger wire was cheaper than additional boosters and power supplies. The latter being the only option when voltage drop becomes an issue.
There you go, you just hit on why you locate the booster at the middle of that 400' run, not at one end of it. That makes the longest run only 200 feet instead of 400 feet, which halves the voltage drop.
And also why if your layout is THAT huge you probably want more than one booster even if you only run a coupel of trains at a tiem and don;t need the monster amps. One school of thought says use a bunch of 2.5 amp boosters with small sections instead of one moster 8 ampo booster with long bus wires. I doubt the freemo guys run 1000' mainlines (2000' bus wire) with just 1 booster - the headlight would barely light at the end of 2000' of #16 wire.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
cacole Are not all MRC DCC products made in China? The Prodigy and Prodigy Advance I have seen were marked as Made in China. Digitrax, CVP, and NCE are made in the U.S., and I think Lenz is still made in Giessen, Germany. What about Piko and Zimo. They're both European companies, but where are their products made? The Bachmann Dynamis was designed by ESU but is made in China. I've heard nothing bad about the MRC Prodigy, Prodigy Advance, or Prodigy Advance 2 but their decoders are next to worthless.
As a point of Information, Lenz still manufactures in Germany and Zimo is designed and manufactured in Austria. Piko has shifted much of its manufacturing either to China unfortunately or Eastern Europe which still fairs better than China.
timber2 I intend to have a fully functional freelance signal system, including semaphores, position light, color position light, etc, so that is a strong consideration in my choice. Steve
I would be interested in knowing what signal systems might be avialable for use with either NCE or MRC.
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
NCE is introducing or has introduced a system that will work on their cab bus, plus an extra two-wire bus connecting the signal modules. As far as I know, MRC has nothing at the moment.
Any DCC system will work with an independent system like Bruce Chubb's C/MRI. Also, it is possible to use Digitrax Loconet components and build a detection and signalling system without using a Digitrax command station.