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Wye Wiring Wrecommendation Wanted

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Wye Wiring Wrecommendation Wanted
Posted by maxman on Saturday, August 9, 2008 11:58 AM

 

 

                                         svmrrclayout1.jpg picture by yemoge

Gentlefolks:  I'm looking for a recommendation for the correct wiring of a wye situation as shown above.  Power is NCE DCC.  We have a standard gage branch line with a booster and breaker.  We will have a narrow gage line that, although more complicated than a loop, can be represented by the loop as shown in the sketch.  This will also have its own booster and breaker.  The standard gage is shown as solid line, the narrow gage is shown with the x's, and then there is a dual gage section shown with the slashes.  It appears to me that the section of track starting from the left end of the crossover where the wye joins the dual gage track to the center of the crossover between the dual gage section and the narrow gage loop constitutes the reversing section for the standard gage wye.  And this reversing section looks like it should include both dual gage tracks.

So, the question is how to wire this all properly.  I'd like to use one of those automatic reverser things.  I also would like to know what happens to an engine that is operating in the reversing section (i.e.: the narrow gage engine on one dual gage track) when a standard gage engine enters the parallel track and the track polarity (or phase) gets swapped.

Also, will the automatic reverser sense if an engine enters the reversing section from the right end, for example if a narrow gage engine comes off the loop into the dual gage section after the phase has been swapped by an engine doing its thing on the wye.

Oh.  The two solid bars that look like insulators are not.  They are just there to show the relative positions of the end of the dual gage track.

Any suggestions with this would be appreciated.

Thanks

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Posted by gandydancer19 on Saturday, August 9, 2008 3:10 PM

 maxman wrote:
So, the question is how to wire this all properly.  I'd like to use one of those automatic reverser things. 

Assuming that the two solid bars that you say are not gaps, were gaps, then I think both of the gaps for the reversing wye need to be moved to the left of the last std gauge crossover into the wye tracks. As they are now, the crossover connects the wye section back together which is not good.

 maxman wrote:
I also would like to know what happens to an engine that is operating in the reversing section (i.e.: the narrow gage engine on one dual gage track) when a standard gage engine enters the parallel track and the track polarity (or phase) gets swapped.

Nothing.  It keeps operating normally.

 maxman wrote:
Also, will the automatic reverser sense if an engine enters the reversing section from the right end, for example if a narrow gage engine comes off the loop into the dual gage section after the phase has been swapped by an engine doing its thing on the wye.

It should if you have the phase (AC polarity) correct between the two boosters.

Elmer.

The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.

(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.

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  • From: Central Georgia
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Posted by Johnnny_reb on Saturday, August 9, 2008 4:07 PM

If it were me I would move the spur crossover a little to the right and join both legs of the wye before the siding and crossover. Then install the gaps in both legs of the wye before it joins the wye on the right. That way the duel gauge section does not affect the wye at all only the wye needs the auto reverser. As for the narrow gage engine as you are using DCC it will that bother it at all when the standard gauge section trips the auto reverser in the wye. With the loop you are showing not being a reversing loop, by moving the siding a little to the right. Joining the wye on that side before it enters the siding you need only insulate the upper and lower legs of the wye itself and install the auto reverser.  

Johnnny_reb Once a word is spoken it can not be unspoken!

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Posted by maxman on Sunday, August 10, 2008 11:18 AM

Thanks for the responses so far.

Joining the tail of the wye prior to it entering the dual gage tracks is not an option.  I am dealing with heritage trackwork at that spot and making a re-arrangement isn't allowed.  There is not enough room to re-align, the dual gage tracks would end up being shorter, plus some operational flexibility would be lost.

Concerning the gaps, as I said the dark marks shown on the sketch are not gaps, but are there just to show where the dual gage ends.

Since the wye portion of the sketch is existing, it was previously wired for DC operation.  There are existing gaps at the frog end of each of the wye turnouts as well as at the frog ends of the two turnouts that form that first crossover.

The track to the right of the wye was previously wired as a reversing section, with the reversing done (I think) with relays.  However at that time the dual gage track did not exist, nor did the connection to the narrow gage loop.  What is concerning me is the new dual gage stuff and the narrow gage interface.  I'm trying to incorporate the reversing business as well as keep operational oopses on the narrow gage from shutting down the standard gage branch line.  To me this is important, as I don't think I'm dealing with DCC friendly turnouts and the likely hood of someone running a switch is probably pretty good.

Is there any reason that both dual gage tracks cannot be made a part of the reversing section, especially if I add a gap between the two turnouts that make up the dual gage crossover to the right side of the sketch?

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Posted by gandydancer19 on Sunday, August 10, 2008 1:29 PM
 maxman wrote:

Is there any reason that both dual gage tracks cannot be made a part of the reversing section, especially if I add a gap between the two turnouts that make up the dual gage crossover to the right side of the sketch?

For the detailed questions that you have, it would be best if you could show us a drawing that included or showed the gaps.  As it is now, we (me anyway) are kind of guessing even though you have tried to explain where they are.  Labeling the gaps with a letter (A,B,C, etc.) would help too.

Elmer.

The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.

(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.

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Posted by maxman on Sunday, August 10, 2008 2:54 PM
 gandydancer19 wrote:
 maxman wrote:

Is there any reason that both dual gage tracks cannot be made a part of the reversing section, especially if I add a gap between the two turnouts that make up the dual gage crossover to the right side of the sketch?

For the detailed questions that you have, it would be best if you could show us a drawing that included or showed the gaps. 

Well, I consider it a minor miracle that I was even able to get a sketch to post somewhat properly.  But how does the following look to you?  It is just your typical DC wiring practice.

 

                                   svmrrclayout1.jpg picture by yemoge

The black dots represent a gap cut in both rails.

Thanks

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Posted by gandydancer19 on Monday, August 11, 2008 7:09 PM

OK, the gaps that you have indicated clarify the drawing a lot (for me anyway). I would make the reversing section the dual gauge part that starts from the three dots (gaps) on the left (but not into the wye) and going to the right including the dual gauge yard. The reversing section would end at the gap on the dual gauge crossover that goes to the narrow gauge circle. All track feeders inside the reversing section should be tied to their own bus and go to the auto reverser module. I haven't used an auto reversing module myself, but I am an electronics technician and have seen them at our club layout, so the module should have an input and an output. The input will normally go to the DCC booster and the output should go to the bus of the reversing section. There should be instructions with it to tell you what get connected to what.

A picture is always worth a thousand words.  Sometimes it is hard to tell how much experience someone has in the hobby, particulary when talking about wiring and gaps.  Some turnouts have gaps built in and some don't.  That is why I needed the clarification.

Elmer.

The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.

(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.

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Posted by maxman on Monday, August 11, 2008 8:46 PM

Thank you, Gandydancer 19.  I appreciate your response and help.

Now, just to clarify in my mind what will happen in the reversing section.  I understand that the electronic reverser will sense the "short" that occurs when the polarity (or phase if you will) changes when a standard gage engine crosses the wye gaps and will do whatever it needs to do to make the correction and keep things running.

Will it do the same thing when a narrow gage engine enters the reversing section from the crossover at the narrow gage loop at the right side of the sketch?

For example, if we assume that the reversing section and the narrow gage loop were in phase originally, and then the phase of the reversing section gets changed by a standard gage engine turning on the wye, will the reverser reverse itself again to allow a narrow gage engine into the reversing section?  I think that it is obvious that I could only have one engine crossing gaps at a time, but my concern is that will the thing work correctly otherwise.

Oh, and one more somewhat related question.  When we are talking about this reversing stuff in DCC, is it proper to say that the polarity is changed, or that the phase is changed?

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Posted by gandydancer19 on Tuesday, August 12, 2008 1:09 PM

 maxman wrote:
Thank you, Gandydancer 19.  I appreciate your response and help.

No problem.

 maxman wrote:
Now, just to clarify in my mind what will happen in the reversing section.  I understand that the electronic reverser will sense the "short" that occurs when the polarity (or phase if you will) changes when a standard gage engine crosses the wye gaps and will do whatever it needs to do to make the correction and keep things running.

Correct.

 maxman wrote:
Will it do the same thing when a narrow gage engine enters the reversing section from the crossover at the narrow gage loop at the right side of the sketch?

For example, if we assume that the reversing section and the narrow gage loop were in phase originally, and then the phase of the reversing section gets changed by a standard gage engine turning on the wye, will the reverser reverse itself again to allow a narrow gage engine into the reversing section?  I think that it is obvious that I could only have one engine crossing gaps at a time, but my concern is that will the thing work correctly otherwise.

It should, but because of the two different power districts, I don't have the experience to say for sure.  If you were to make the crossover itself as part of the wye's power district and move the reversing section gap to the bottom of the crossover track, it would for sure.  You would need at least one locomotive length in the wye's power district before hitting the reversing section.  I would try it first before relocating the gaps, and if it doesn't work correctly, re-work/re-wire the crossover track.

 maxman wrote:
Oh, and one more somewhat related question.  When we are talking about this reversing stuff in DCC, is it proper to say that the polarity is changed, or that the phase is changed?

Technically, it is the phase that is changed (180 degrees out), but modelers and others will refer to it as polarity, and that is correct as well.  Just as long as you understand what is happening you should be OK.  Polarity is usually a DC term and phase is usually an AC term.  The operative word being "usually".  Sometimes I get too picky for my own good.Whistling [:-^]

Elmer.

The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.

(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.

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Posted by maxman on Tuesday, August 12, 2008 1:30 PM

Okie-dokie, we'll give it a shot and see what happens.

Thanks again!

Regards

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