Digitrax Programming Problems

[NSlover92]

Ok, tonight at my train club I was programming, my BLI Blueline PRR J1 (With sound). Ok I was using the DT400 and I was on the non-powered programming track. I entered in my number (6165) hit enter, it took it, I was like sweet first time it took it thats great. I slide it over to the powered part...sound kicked on I hear chuffing and it moves and stuff too, but I go to do that whistle and nothing happens! So I do it again and I hear a air horn, and I do it again and I hear the airhorn is across the layout to a diesel with a drop in MRC sound decoder. And while he was running his engine I reprogrammed it to my number and it took control of my function sounds. So.. I tried to reset his and then I did mine and reprogrammed it and nothing changed, now his has no motion or sound and mine has no function sounds. What happned I didnt know you oculd even program off of the non-powered programming track. How do I fix this? Thanks Mike

[Paul3]

We had this this problem (programming a lot of locos to the same address) at my club a few years ago.

If it's a club-sized layout, you probably have multiple boosters.  Double check that the wire connection that forces the booster to be a non-command station is firmly screwed down on all boosters (ours was loose on a couple boosters).  Also double check to make sure the OPSW that makes the booster a non-command station is also properly programmed.  See, all Digitrax boosters are also command stations (the Super Empire Builder or SEB starter set), and you have to make sure they aren't acting as such when you have a Chief (DCS100).

If they are allowed to try to be command stations, and they power up before the DCS100, they will act as command stations.  The SEB does not have a seperate programming track, and therefore uses the same wire leads to program with as it does to run trains.  Therefore, if you're unlucky, the SEB will send out programming info out to the mainline, and those engines sensitive enough will be changed.  I had to re-program some 40 engines...twice...before we figured out what the problem was.  Our permanent solution was to have another DCS100 "brain" on the a completely seperate piece of track isolated from the layout that's just used for programming.

As for the locos, I would reset the BLI decoder (you haven't mentioned which decoder you've added to the Blueline loco for motion).  If you have motion and no sound in the BLI, then it sounds like the sound decoder has a different address than the motion decoder.  This is the primary reason why I dislike Blueline; you have to fool around with two decoders.  If you have DCC and you want sound, just buy QSI-sound and forget about Blueline.  IMHO, Blueline is for folks that want DC sound.  Adding DCC to a Blueline is usually not worth the effort.

As for the MRC loco with problems...  It's MRC.  They fail constantly as it is.  It is no surprise to me that it won't program or run.  It would surprise me more if it did run without problems.  The best way to fix an MRC decoder is to rip it out and send it back to MRC.  Let them figure it out 'cause they are about the only ones who can program them.

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

[Stevert]

What happned I didnt know you oculd even program off of the non-powered programming track. How do I fix this? Thanks Mike

  Sure you can!  It's called Ops mode programming. 

  How to fix it?  Make sure you don't enter Ops mode programming.  See section 15 in the Super Chief manual (available here:  http://www.digitrax.com/ftp/superchief.pdf )

HTH,
Steve

[selector]

Hmm.... It sounds to me like the programme circuitry was in Paged Mode, which would have altered the settings of all active decoders.  It explains unrelated, unintended consequences in decoders resident in other engines on the layout...such as the horn blowing in them and not necessarily in your own.  You should have been on a separate programming track or using Ops Mode.  Also, if I am correct, you must remember to scroll through the programming modes when you press "Program" on the DT400 throttle. 

I had a D'Oh! myself just three days ago.  Every time you power down the system, the DT400 resets to default Paged Mode.

-Crandell

[NSlover92]

We had this this problem (programming a lot of locos to the same address) at my club a few years ago.

If it's a club-sized layout, you probably have multiple boosters.  Double check that the wire connection that forces the booster to be a non-command station is firmly screwed down on all boosters (ours was loose on a couple boosters).  Also double check to make sure the OPSW that makes the booster a non-command station is also properly programmed.  See, all Digitrax boosters are also command stations (the Super Empire Builder or SEB starter set), and you have to make sure they aren't acting as such when you have a Chief (DCS100).

If they are allowed to try to be command stations, and they power up before the DCS100, they will act as command stations.  The SEB does not have a seperate programming track, and therefore uses the same wire leads to program with as it does to run trains.  Therefore, if you're unlucky, the SEB will send out programming info out to the mainline, and those engines sensitive enough will be changed.  I had to re-program some 40 engines...twice...before we figured out what the problem was.  Our permanent solution was to have another DCS100 "brain" on the a completely seperate piece of track isolated from the layout that's just used for programming.

As for the locos, I would reset the BLI decoder (you haven't mentioned which decoder you've added to the Blueline loco for motion).  If you have motion and no sound in the BLI, then it sounds like the sound decoder has a different address than the motion decoder.  This is the primary reason why I dislike Blueline; you have to fool around with two decoders.  If you have DCC and you want sound, just buy QSI-sound and forget about Blueline.  IMHO, Blueline is for folks that want DC sound.  Adding DCC to a Blueline is usually not worth the effort.

As for the MRC loco with problems...  It's MRC.  They fail constantly as it is.  It is no surprise to me that it won't program or run.  It would surprise me more if it did run without problems.  The best way to fix an MRC decoder is to rip it out and send it back to MRC.  Let them figure it out 'cause they are about the only ones who can program them.

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

I just it had sound and was DCC ready, so i just dropped a Digitrax 186 mobile decoder (I know its Digitrax but im not sure what exactlly what it is I think its 186 or something like that). It was pretty easy plus the sound is really good I love it (Well I have just heard the constant sounds not the whistle or bell or any of them because the MRC decoder stole those from me. Thanks ya'll, and we do have the DCS 100. Mike 

[NSlover92]

Hmm.... It sounds to me like the programme circuitry was in Paged Mode, which would have altered the settings of all active decoders.  It explains unrelated, unintended consequences in decoders resident in other engines on the layout...such as the horn blowing in them and not necessarily in your own.  You should have been on a separate programming track or using Ops Mode.  Also, if I am correct, you must remember to scroll through the programming modes when you press "Program" on the DT400 throttle. 

I had a D'Oh! myself just three days ago.  Every time you power down the system, the DT400 resets to default Paged Mode.

-Crandell

I was on a seperate track, its isolated from the rest of the layout. Mike 

[jfugate]

I was on a seperate track, its isolated from the rest of the layout. Mike 

If that's really true, then it's impossible to have your programming affect other decoders on the layout itself. Otherwise, how are the programming commands getting back to the layout? Through the ether? Or maybe via tacheon fields that were generated by all the quantum interference?

Sounds like the other loco was already programmed to the same address as your loco, and when you placed your loco back on the layout, commands got received by both locos who happened to have the same decoder address.

With dual-decoder BlueLine locos, all kinds of odd scenarios are possible, depending on the addresses of the various decoders. The extra complexity and quirky behavior that's possible with dual decoder arrangements are enough that I don't recommend dual-decoder arrangements unless you're desperate and very techy. When dual-decoders work, it's fine -- you don't need to be a rocket scientist. But when things go bad, you'll need a good understanding of the technical details to get to the root cause of wierdness like this. 

Even then you may not be able to figure out what happpened unless you can duplicate it again. 

[NSlover92]

I was on a seperate track, its isolated from the rest of the layout. Mike 

If that's really true, then it's impossible to have your programming affect other decoders on the layout itself. Otherwise, how are the programming commands getting back to the layout? Through the ether? Or maybe via tacheon fields that were generated by all the quantum interference?

Sounds like the other loco was already programmed to the same address as your loco, and when you placed your loco back on the layout, commands got received by both locos who happened to have the same decoder address.

With dual-decoder BlueLine locos, all kinds of odd scenarios are possible, depending on the addresses of the various decoders. The extra complexity and quirky behavior that's possible with dual decoder arrangements are enough that I don't recommend dual-decoder arrangements unless you're desperate and very techy. When dual-decoders work, it's fine -- you don't need to be a rocket scientist. But when things go bad, you'll need a good understanding of the technical details to get to the root cause of wierdness like this. 

Even then you may not be able to figure out what happpened unless you can duplicate it again. 

Well I mean it is connected to our main system (the chief) but it isnt powered like the rest of the layout it is insulated. And his was 003 because he doesnt know anything abuot electronics and his engine is really messed up and he does know how to program. Mike 

[jfugate]

Yep, that's what I suspected.

It sounded like the other loco that went bananas was still on address 3 and had never been reprogrammed to a more suitable address. Leaving locos on address 3 permanently is just asking to get reprogrammed while you're trying to program a loco with a new decoder, since *all* new decoders come set to address 3. 

The idea is you need to change that address to something more appropriate ASAP. Otherwise, look out!

[NSlover92]

Good point, ok, I will reprogram mine back, and see if I can get his to somehow go back, to 03 so I can reprogram it to it's real road number. MIke

[Paul3]

NSlover92,
Digitrax decoders are formatted thusly: "D" for either digital or Digitrax, then the scale ("H" for HO, "N" for N, "Z" for Z, etc.), then the constant amperage rating (usually "1" for 1 amp), then the number of functions ("2" or "6" being the usual modern types), and the last number is the rev. type ("3" or "5" being typical these days).  The most common modern Digitrax HO decoders being DH123, DH163 & DH165.

To program Blueline sound decoder, you need to "lock out" the motion decoder.  Likewise, to program the motion decoder, you need to "lock out" the sound decoder.  It's in the manuals, supposedly.  Simply plugging the motion decoder into the Blueline sound loco and trying to program them both at the same time is not going to work.

You've said you have a DCS100.  Do you have any boosters, and what kind?  They should be DB150's or DB200's.

jfugate,
Did you not read my post (maybe the "tachyon fields" prevented my text from appearing on your screen )?  It's certainly possible to have a Digitrax layout reprogram most locos sitting on the layout even when using a seperate program track.  I've seen it done twice, and I had to personally re-program some 40 engines both times.  Trust me, it's possible for the reasons I stated above.

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

[locoworks]

just a quick step back to the booster part??   is the command station a DCS50,100 or 200?? and are there other boosters on the layout DB***.  i'm wondering if you have boosters and  you put a loco on the programming track to program it.  even though the command station has been told to go into programming, how does it know when you have selected OPs mode not to send the signal to the track itself or indeed any of the boosters on the layout??  i'm thinking that no matter what, if you select OP's by mistake it will send out the programming signal to the mainline and the boosters??  even if it senses a loco on the programming track, it may still send the signal to boosters?  it could just be operator error??

[CSX Robert]

...It's certainly possible to have a Digitrax layout reprogram most locos sitting on the layout even when using a seperate program track. I've seen it done twice, and I had to personally re-program some 40 engines both times. Trust me, it's possible for the reasons I stated above...

There is also another way to program all of the engines on the layout. If you select engine address 0 and do OPS mode programming, then all of the engines on the layout will respond to the programming because address 0 is the broadcast address.

just a quick step back to the booster part?? is the command station a DCS50,100 or 200?? and are there other boosters on the layout DB***. i'm wondering if you have boosters and you put a loco on the programming track to program it. even though the command station has been told to go into programming, how does it know when you have selected OPs mode not to send the signal to the track itself or indeed any of the boosters on the layout?? i'm thinking that no matter what, if you select OP's by mistake it will send out the programming signal to the mainline and the boosters?? even if it senses a loco on the programming track, it may still send the signal to boosters? it could just be operator error??

Actually, when you select OPS mode it does send the porgramming signal out to the track and to the boosters, and not to the programming track, that is the purpose of OPS mode(that is why it is sometimes refered to as "Programming on the Main"). When you do OPS mode programming, you have to give the address of the locomotive that you are wanting to program, and only that locomotive responds to the programming commands.

[locoworks]

i see, in that case perhaps it was down to another loco having the same address as the one being programmed??

[NSlover92]

I have to say I think it was because they left theirs at 003 and I was programming my new engine which was also 003. So I highly doubt that the boosters or anything was the problem, because I had just programmed another engine right before I did mine. It took it perfect, so I think it was just because theirs was at 003. Thanks for all the replies guys! I need to get going I am in school I get on the computers during my study hall. Mike

[jfugate]

jfugate,

Did you not read my post (maybe the "tachyon fields" prevented my text from appearing on your screen )?  It's certainly possible to have a Digitrax layout reprogram most locos sitting on the layout even when using a seperate program track.  I've seen it done twice, and I had to personally re-program some 40 engines both times.  Trust me, it's possible for the reasons I stated above.

Paul A. Cutler III

Paul:

Yeh, it must have been the tachyon fields ...

Actually, I did see your post, but what I was refererring to was the OP's insistence that the programming track was not connected to the layout.

I envisioned a piece of flex track somewhere with a system connected to it for programming locos. If the programming track was truly disconnected like this, there's no way programming a loco could somehow also affect the layout.

But if the programming track is connected to the same system that is also connected to the layout, then yes, you make a very good point. It's a bit scarey that it's possible to have a Digitrax system accidentally reprogram all the locos on the layout!

In an backwards sort of way, it makes the fact that an NCE system actually shuts down the layout while using the programming track somewhat comforting.

While we're discussing programming, programming on the main (POM) becoming popular makes it rare you need to program locos on the programming track any more. It's still a good idea to first test a new decoder install on the programming track, since the power levels are low enough you're much less likely to burn things out. Otherwise, POM will work for just about everything.

Once you retrain yourself to prefer POM, about the only time you really need the programming track is to test a new decoder install, or to read back CV values (can't do that with POM). In other words, the programming track becomes a testing and debugging track only -- not something you would typically do in the middle of an ops session. So NCE's dropping of the layout track power when using the programming track becomes somewhat reasonable behavior -- especially if it keeps you from accidentally reprogramming your entire fleet to the same settings! 

[CSX Robert]

...It's a bit scarey that it's possible to have a Digitrax system accidentally reprogram all the locos on the layout!

In an backwards sort of way, it makes the fact that an NCE system actually shuts down the layout while using the programming track somewhat comforting...

You make it sound like the Digitrax system decides on it's on to reprogram all of the locos. The situation that Paul is talking about can only happen if people do not follow the rules when setting up the layout. When you use a Digitrax command station as a booster, you can set it up to be a booster only(with a jumper or an option switch setting) or you can leave it set to be either and make sure that you turn your command station on first. I believe the main reason for the second option is for modular clubs. Members can have their own command stations that they use at home or on their own modules, and when they combine their setups they do not have to reconfigure their commmand stations.

It's also possible to have the NCE system accidentally program all the locos on the layout. One of the options when programming with NCE is broadcast programming, which does OPS mode programming to address 0(the broadcast address), which will programm all of the locos on the layout.

[jfugate]

CSX:

It does sound like it's a bit easier to accidentally program all the locos with Digitrax if you elect to install a certain configuration and don't realize the implications. With NCE, you have to deliberately select broadcast POM programming, and the decoders have to also understand the command is a broadcast command -- so it's less likely this could happen by accident with NCE, sounds like.

It might help to have Digitrax and NCE system users weigh in with personal experiences here. So far, one Digitrax system user has said he's seen a "broadcast" programming glitch happen several times on Digitrax layouts. Any NCE system users out there who've seen accidental broadcast programming glitches happen, and how often have you seen it?

Since NCE users aren't likely to be reading this thread, I think I'll post the question over on one of my DCC forum clinic threads. 

[UpNorth]

I tried it on my DCS100. Set up my DT400 in Radio mode (it then only programs in POM) to decoder address "0" and then sent out a CV 03=00 (momentum)  change out.  All 5 locos on layout got the same info and all leaped forward.  If someone is dumb enough to send CV8=2 to address 0 he could screw up every engine on layout.

But who works with address 0 in the first place. Only he who is not up to speed on DCC.  The thing that surprises me is someone who is not up to speed in DCC, doing programming on a Club layout, not to be insulting

[CSX Robert]

...So far, one Digitrax system user has said he's seen a "broadcast" programming glitch happen several times on Digitrax layouts...

Joe,
First of all, according to Paul he has seen it twice, not several times, and it was only one layout, not layouts.

Second, I think you may still be unclear on the situation that Paul described. It did not involve using the broadcast address with OPS mode programming, I mentioned that as another way to program all your locos at once. For what Paul described to happen, you have to have a DB150(Empire Builder command station). If all of your boosters are DCS100's, DCS50's and/or dumb boosters, it can not happen. The Empire Builder does not have a seperate program track output, so when you do service mode programming with it as the command station, the program commands are sent out the main outputs(I don't know if the DB150 puts the service mode programming commands on the rail sync lines or not so I don't know if it would just program the engines in the power district powered by the DB150 or if it would be the whole layout). If you are intending to use a DCS100 as the command station but are actually using a DB150, when you try to do service mode programming on the programming track of the DCS100, it instead uses the main outputs of the DB150. I could be wrong, but I would think that this situation would be rare, and if you pay attention to instructions, it should not happpen.

One situation that probably is more common is having a DB150 as the command station, forgetting to turn off the layout to do service mode programming, and programming all of the engines that way, which is one reason I do not reccomend that people get the Empire Builder. I would also think that would be a common mistake with the PowerCab(but not the PowerHouse Pro) since it does not have a seperate program track output either. NCE does make the Auto-SW for the PowerCab which turns off the layout power when you do service mode programming(it can also be used with the DB150).

[jfugate]

...So far, one Digitrax system user has said he's seen a "broadcast" programming glitch happen several times on Digitrax layouts...

Joe,
First of all, according to Paul he has seen it twice, not several times, and it was only one layout, not layouts.

Second, I think you may still be unclear on the situation that Paul described. It did not involve using the broadcast address with OPS mode programming, I mentioned that as another way to program all your locos at once. For what Paul described to happen, you have to have a DB150(Empire Builder command station). If all of your boosters are DCS100's, DCS50's and/or dumb boosters, it can not happen. The Empire Builder does not have a seperate program track output, so when you do service mode programming with it as the command station, the program commands are sent out the main outputs(I don't know if the DB150 puts the service mode programming commands on the rail sync lines or not so I don't know if it would just program the engines in the power district powered by the DB150 or if it would be the whole layout). If you are intending to use a DCS100 as the command station but are actually using a DB150, when you try to do service mode programming on the programming track of the DCS100, it instead uses the main outputs of the DB150. I could be wrong, but I would think that this situation would be rare, and if you pay attention to instructions, it should not happpen.

One situation that probably is more common is having a DB150 as the command station, forgetting to turn off the layout to do service mode programming, and programming all of the engines that way, which is one reason I do not reccomend that people get the Empire Builder. I would also think that would be a common mistake with the PowerCab(but not the PowerHouse Pro) since it does not have a seperate program track output either. NCE does make the Auto-SW for the PowerCab which turns off the layout power when you do service mode programming(it can also be used with the DB150).

CSX, thanks for extra explanation. Paul made it sound like anyone using a Digitrax DB150 better look out, which is certainly more than one layout ... 

I did understand that with Digitrax the problem is a hardware configuration, not an ops mode programming boo-boo. But the net effect is still a form of "broadcast" (notice the quotes around broadcast) programming where all locos are affected. I'm defining "broadcast" programming as all locos on the layout get affected, regardless of how.

[Paul3]

jfugate,
Yep, if you don't follow the directions, Digitrax boosters can program all of the locos on your layout.  This is a result of Digitrax boosters also being command stations.  If you're using them as boosters, then you have to make sure they won't power up as a command station.  You can either use a jumper wire or an OPSW function in the programming (my club uses both...now).  What had happened to us is that the screws on the wire jumper backed off on a couple boosters, which resulted in random reprogrammings (until we tracked it down).

BTW, the comment about how it's sort of a good thing that NCE shuts down the mainline for programming is rather like how folks say it's sort of a good thing that you have to plug in a Digitrax throttle to acquire an engine.  Sure, both have their positive sides, but I think we can both agree that neither one is very desirable. 

I don't particularly like POM unless it's with a sound loco with verbal feedback (which is cool).  I use it to speed match all kinds of locos with CV's 2, 3, 4, 5, & 6, but when I'm programming addresses, resetting decoders, and doing complicated CV's, I like to use the programming track.  I like the confirmation from Page Mode, especially for addresses.  Several times I've tried POM for addresses and have had it go to some oddball number that makes no sense.  I don't see the need to "retrain myself" to prefer POM.  POM has it's uses, but for my money, I'd rely on the programming track for most programming operations.

While I don't think that every DB150 owner should "watch out", I do think that every DCS100 owner that also has a DB150 as a booster should be aware of this potential problem.  If they follow the directions (or always power up their DCS100 first), there won't be a problem. 

UpNorth,
Believe me, having inexperienced members programming on the club layout is more the rule than the exception.  That's why we created a completely seperate programming cart with it's own DCS100.  At least it keeps the carnage to a bare minumum. 

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

[UpNorth]

... Believe me, having inexperienced members programming on the club layout is more the rule than the exception. 

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

Tell me this a typo ... Hope " NOT "

[CSX Robert]

...BTW, the comment about how it's sort of a good thing that NCE shuts down the mainline for programming is rather like how folks say it's sort of a good thing that you have to plug in a Digitrax throttle to acquire an engine. Sure, both have their positive sides, but I think we can both agree that neither one is very desirable. ...

I think it's kind of funny that Digitrax calls this "Safety Selection." I really like the design of Loconet but one by-product of it's design is that you have to have two-way communication to select a Loco because the throttle has to request a free slot. Since Digitrax's radio and infrared are both one-way, there was no way to allow for wireless loco selection.

[locoworks]

I think it's kind of funny that Digitrax calls this "Safety Selection." I really like the design of Loconet but one by-product of it's design is that you have to have two-way communication to select a Loco because the throttle has to request a free slot. Since Digitrax's radio and infrared are both one-way, there was no way to allow for wireless loco selection.

Yet.  Digitrax is working on their Duplex, it should be out shortly.

David B

 that old chestnut again, the duplex has been coming out soon/shortly according to an email i got from them in August 2004

[Paul3]

UpNorth,
As much as I'd like it to be a typo, it's not.  We have a large membership, and not all of them even have decoders, let alone a DCC set up at home.  And since all members also have keys to the joint, it's not like I can keep them from "experimenting" with DCC.

Therefore, we decided to 1) discourage usage of the layout "brain" for programming (there is no longer a programming track on the layout), 2) build and support a programming "cart" that has another DCS100 and some track on it, and 3) encourage use of the attached computer on the programming cart that's running Railroad&Co.'s software.

So while I can't stop inexperienced-at-DCC members from messing around with the layout and programming locos, I can try to steer them to safer waters.

CSX Robert,
Well, what did you expect for them to call it?  It's not like they are going to call it "Antiquated Radio Mode" or something.    It's like a Dilbert cartoon: "That's not a bug, that's a feature!"  That being said, I will point out to folks that of the "big three" in DCC, Digitrax was the first to come out with any radio throttle at all years before NCE, and Lenz still has none.

locoworks,
Yep, it's been a long time coming, that's for sure.  I've been told by Digitrax personnel at the Springfield (MA) show that the duplex radio is a working prototype, and that the hang up has been to get the same kind of range that Digitrax owners expect from their radio throttles.  Also, that the duplex radio would be an upgrade of the DT400.

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************