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What Sort of Locomotive is this 4-6-0?

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What Sort of Locomotive is this 4-6-0?
Posted by RedDogF5 on Friday, July 30, 2021 6:25 PM

Here is the pictures:

https://content.wisconsinhistory.org/digital/collection/cwdp/id/595/rec/1

I knoow little about steam engines, and my internet searching has turned up nothing definitive.  I am primarily interested in the far rearward final drive wheel, if that placment is specific to a certain builder or just a timeframe, and where to find a model of it.  The few models I have found are Mantuas, which seems to be closely followed by the words "too large" "out of scale" and "poor performing".  Any information is greatly appreciated, thanks!

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Posted by Lakeshore Sub on Monday, August 2, 2021 9:33 AM

Hi RedDog.

I'm sure that more of the steam afficiandos will respond at some point but here goes. 

As trains got heavier in the  1870's - 1890's, builders needed bigger engines so they lengthened 4-4-0's with bigger boilers and a third driver set.  The offset third driver set gave more support for the larger boilers and you see this with locomotives from different builders so I don't believe that it is builder specific.

As far as the models, I am assuming HO scale since you are finding Mantua engines on E-Bay.  You don't have a lot of options for the oldest 4-6-0's build one possibility is to back date the current Bachman 4-6-0 with the 52" drivers to a close approximation.   It doesn't have the offsset third driver set but  would run better than the Mantua models that you find on E-Bay.

That said,  if you are up for a challenge, many people turn the Manuta 4-6-0 into a fine running locomotive.  I believe that the body is oversized.

Good luck.

Scott Sonntag

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Posted by RedDogF5 on Monday, August 2, 2021 10:12 AM

Thanks, that makes perfect sense.

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, August 2, 2021 10:26 AM

Lakeshore Sub
As trains got heavier in the  1870's - 1890's, builders needed bigger engines so they lengthened 4-4-0's with bigger boilers and a third driver set.

It's minimum lengthening, in part, that's behind this.  Think of the 'added' axle as going between the cylinders and the lead driver pair of a 4-4-0, not 'behind', and the structural analogy with a 4-4-0 will become clearer.

Passenger engines benefit from having deep fireboxes, and the 'evolved and perfected' 4-4-0 provides one that can go down nearly to track level.  Naturally this fits between the frames at the back of the locomotive, and for stability you find the driver pairs flanking it fore and aft, with the length of the side rods "longer" to accommodate this.

When you expand to three driver axles, you still have the rear two on opposite ends of the firebox... which is still narrow with deep drop.  But now there is an incentive to shoehorn the two 'leading' driver pairs together and with the new lead pair close to the trailing wheel of the engine truck.

Our modern eyes are used to seeing drivers close together, often so close that brake hangers have to ride outboard, so we 'read' the wheel arrangement as having the rear pair extended, rather than recognizing it as accommodation for stability, deep firebox efficiency, and weight distribution all together.

Note that 4-6-0s with equal spacing and deep fireboxes will have the spacing relatively long (equal in fact to what the firebox requires); 4-6-0s with wide fireboxes carry them above the drivers and have relatively little limitation on wheelbase and relative axle position vs. equalized weight distribution.

The best of both worlds turned out to be wide and deep fireboxes, which necessitated a small carrying wheel at the rear -- in early examples this replaced a rear driver pair in pedestals.  This extended a 4-4-0 to a 4-4-2 and a 4-6-0 (with equal close driver spacing) to a 4-6-2, and that was the first real revolution in modern fast steam.

In my opinion, if you're freelancing a 4-6-0 the added 'size' of the Mantua is only a drawback if it dwarfs the cars you're using.  I would rework the cab to 'scale' when detailing, and just consider the engine to have been built larger.  

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Posted by BEAUSABRE on Monday, August 2, 2021 10:49 AM

The closest thing I can come to what you are looking for in HO is the old "Petticoat Junction" TV Show locomotive by Tyco (Tyco and Mantua were two heads of the same beast, with Tyco, in my early teenaged opinion, being for the train set crowd and Mantua appealing to the modelers)

image.jpg (864×242) (hakes.com)

This was based on Sierra #3, which enjoyed a long career as Hollywood's go-to steam locomotive (the stack on the PJ engine was a fake built around the real one)

Sierra No. 3 - Wikipedia

As far as the position of the third drive axle, a quick glance at my copy of The American Steam Locomotive Vol I Evolution shows the majority of the 2-6-0's and 4-6-0's built between 1870 (the start of the book) and 1900 followed this practice. Unfortunately, the  book doesn't explain this design feature. I would presume this was done so the firebox could be carried between the second and third driving axles rather than partially suspended in space aft of a more normal axle spacing. From what I understand, this spacing made for some very rough riding machines. But the roadbed, rails and bridges of the period - with the exceptions of sections of the East - were not intended for fast running, so the speed was kept low to accomodate this, which meant that trains' speeds were too slow for this rough riding to become a major problem.

 

 

 

 

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Monday, August 2, 2021 10:52 AM

Picture of the locomotive:

I looked through the pictures of 4-6-0s at Brasstrains Dot Com, and could not find one with the correct domes and driver wheel spacing.

-Kevin

Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by Southgate 2 on Monday, August 2, 2021 11:20 AM

As mentioned, the long space between the 2nd and 3rd driver's axles allowed the firebox to be as long and deep as possible, when the practice was to have it between, not behind or above the drivers.

The Mantua-Tyco isn't as grossly oversized as some claim. It checks out favorably with at least one locomotive drawing in Model Railroader's Clyclopaedia of Locomotives, Vol 1 Steam.  The cabs however are pretty hokey looking. Finding one from MDC-Roundhouse old timers locomotives isn't real hard on ebay, and they improve the appearance greatly. 

These run as nicely as any Mantua, and can be made better with a rare earth magnet, or stack of them in the original motor. 

I used a motor from MDC's Shay kit when I couldn't conquer it, in the Mantua 4-6-0.   This 4-6-0 loco is a WIP, and still packed away, but I'll get it out and take pictures if anyone's interested in seeing the MDC cab on the Mantua-tyco boiler. May just do that anyway! Dan

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Posted by Southgate 2 on Monday, August 2, 2021 11:52 AM

Yes. Here it is.

   

 

I cut off some detail below the rear part of the running board, and added a sheet brass fire box dimpled, probably with a pounce wheel. MDC cab, and some other details so far. 

As I mentioned above, the locomotive itself checks out size-wise with at least a couple engines in the clyclopaedia, and no doubt with a great many more not in that book. I thought at first the tender looked large, but it too compares well with some comparable sized locomotives in the drawings. 

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Posted by snjroy on Monday, August 2, 2021 1:01 PM

I for one would be interested to hear about how the Mantua 4-6-0 can be improved. I don't own one - I've avoided the model as I've only read bad press about it. Is it a similar mechanism than the one Mantua used for the 2-6-2? The model is somewhat unique...

Simon

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Posted by Southgate 2 on Monday, August 2, 2021 4:12 PM

It uses the same motor and gear as the 2-6-2. So that's pretty much the same mechanism. I put a rare earth magnet in my 2-6-2, that helped it run smoother. If you're happy with how the 2-6-2s run, you can expect the same from the 4-6-0. It will be geared a little taller due to tha larger drivers.

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Posted by dknelson on Monday, August 2, 2021 4:50 PM

The Milwaukee Road 4-6-0 in the photo somewhat resembles the Sylvania Central 4-6-0 that Arbour offered as a white-metal kit many years ago -- to my eyes a closer resemblance than the Sierra 4-6-0 that Tyco/Mantua offered (but of course more rarely found).  It too had the rear driver pushed back to under the cab.  A number of 4-6-0s, and a few 2-6-0s, had this sort of irregularly spaced drivers.  I assume the goal was a longer firebox (it was between the drivers so it couldn't get wider) for more steaming capacity

Dave Nelson

 

 

 

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Posted by BEAUSABRE on Tuesday, August 3, 2021 12:24 AM

Southgate 2
I cut off some detail below the rear part of the running board, and added a sheet brass fire box dimpled, probably with a pounce wheel. MDC cab, and some other details so far. 

A very nice job. just repaint the orange tender and you'd have her fresh from the builder or shop. Paint the boiler and piping black and you'd have a nice short or branch line loco for the local or mixed after 1890 or so. After 1920, convert the headlight to electric by converting the acetylene one or installing a new electric one along with a turbo generator to power it (detail parts from Bowser for example) and she could serve until she was replaced by a hand me down steamer from a Class 1 which would give way to a EMD SW1, ALCO S1 or S3, BLW VO-660 or DS-4-4-660 or GE  44 or 70 tonner (all available in HO)

As a teen, I used to pedal my bike down to Cranford Junction (Aldene) where the RV interchanged with the CNJ and B&O's SIRT subsidiary and I went to school at Penn State - where the BC provided coal to the University power plant and general freight service to the town of State College

Rahway Valley finished out the steam era with two second-hand 2-8-0's and went on to GE 70 tonners

header3.jpg (1506×578) (trainweb.org)

7705.1604588907.jpg (1024×782) (railpictures.net)

fc187994ba460d7b2bf675774a6abbdb.jpg (950×660) (pinimg.com)

Rahway Valley 15 - Wikipedia

GE 70-ton switcher - Wikipedia

Bellefone Central, with its heavy gypsum traffic went with more powerful power and replaced its old steamers after WW2 with three ex-PRR class H9 2-8-0's which were replaced in turn by an EMD SW9 and an EMD SW1200 in the Fifties

Bellefonte_Central_2-8-0_20_action_with_limestone_canisters_coleville.JPG (1569×705) (pennsyrr.com)

BCEN+5323+V.jpg (768×524

EMD SW9 - Wikipedia

EMD SW1200 - Wikipedia

BTW, BC numbered its diesels using an interesting scheme, for example, #5523 was purchased in 1955 and was the 23 locomotive owned by the line. H9's have been available from Bowser. MTH and BLI and SW9/1200's (virtually identical externally except for the louvers on the battery box, internally the leak prone 567B engine was replaced by the 567C - a kit was available from EMD to convert your leaky 567B on older power to a leak proof 567BC) from a variety of sources

 

 

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Posted by Southgate 2 on Tuesday, August 3, 2021 2:57 AM

Thank you. The 4-6-0 is still being built. It will be "modernised" as you mention, and painted up kind of like this 4-4-0, also built from a tyco 4-6-0 boiler, but shortened to fit the MDC 2-6-0 chassis, which in turn was converted to 4-4-0. The MDC cab was used as well here. The close up is brutal, showing it needs some touch up paint...

   

Thanks for the photo links. I really like 70 tonners and the like!

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Posted by ndbprr on Tuesday, August 3, 2021 8:39 AM

The PRR had a fleet of 4-6-0 engines used in commuter service where fast acceleration was required.  Mostly used around Pittsburg and on the Long Island railroad.  Modernized and running at the end of steam.  One is currently being restored to operate.

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, August 3, 2021 8:48 AM

ndbprr
The PRR had a fleet of 4-6-0 engines used in commuter service where fast acceleration was required.

Keep in mind that the G5s is completely different from the locomotives they were discussing: it is basically an E6s boiler with its relatively wide and deep firebox perched over a three-driving-axle chassis with lower drivers.

As with many deep-firebox designs, the E6s boiler has a grate that angles down toward the throat, with more radiant area in the legs in that area.  Design of the chassis does involve accommodating that 'dip' between the second and third driver pairs to get the boiler as low as possible for stability while getting weight distribution through the equalization correct.

It might be added that much of the rear-end stability issue in the G5s design could be handled by pushing the lead tender truck as far forward as possible, with the front axle well forward of the tender deck (as in some German and Japanese practice) and close-coupling engine and tender with a good reverse radial buffer arrangement.  In theory this should give Baltic-like riding stability by controlling the rear of the locomotive chassis with only minimal difficulty separating engine and tender for maintenance.

This would be an interesting thing to model...

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Posted by RedDogF5 on Wednesday, August 4, 2021 4:56 PM
Thanks for all the responses, I lost this thread somehow. In summary, the wheel spacing is an evolution of 4-4-0 spacing to accommodate longer boiler between frame rails, and isn't necessary a specific model from a specific builder. For HO scale models, the option seem to be: Arbour white metal kit of Sylvania Central 4-6-0 (very rare) or Tyco/Mantua Sierra 4-6-0 (needs work) or Scratch building something - Model Railroader Cyclopedia, Vol. 1: Steam Locomotives may have info/drawings. The picture I posted is pre1909, is it possible that engine would remain in service in the 1920s? And does anyone know of any scaled drawings available on the net?
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Posted by Southgate 2 on Wednesday, August 4, 2021 8:38 PM

It's very possible that a pre-90s engine could work into the 20s and beyond, especially in branchline service. 

Arbour Models are notorious for being difficult to build. 

You might also look into offerings from MDC-Roundhouse and Bowser for a more diverse selection of 4-6-0s. There are others also. Bachmanns are available. Others can vouch for their quality, I hear they're nice. Dan

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Posted by Lakeshore Sub on Friday, August 6, 2021 5:21 PM

Would you believe that there is actually an Arbour Models 4-6-0 out there as Dave mentioned, on E-Bay right now that looks fairly close to the MILW engine.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/373668065202?hash=item57005a2fb2:g:uVUAAOSw1e1hBvUh

Scott Sonntag

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Friday, August 6, 2021 11:05 PM

Lakeshore Sub
looks fairly close to the MILW engine.

It really does.

-Kevin

Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by RedDogF5 on Wednesday, August 11, 2021 6:53 AM

Thanks for posting that, I did my typical ebay bid on it - "I should bid on this, but first I'll do this 'honey-do' thing for my wife" <5 hours later> "Auction Ended - darn"

I did order one of the books mentioned with drawings in it, maybe I will try to scratch build one.

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Posted by snjroy on Wednesday, August 11, 2021 9:44 AM

I see 10 wheel Mantuas all the time on Ebay... Ok, a bunch are "Mechanic's specials" but many are advertized as good runners.

Simon

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Wednesday, August 11, 2021 3:13 PM

RedDogF5
"I should bid on this, but first I'll do this 'honey-do' thing for my wife" <5 hours later> "Auction Ended - darn"

I cannot tell you how many auctions ended when I went to do something in the garage "for just a couple of minutes", then five hours later...

-Kevin

Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by 7j43k on Wednesday, August 11, 2021 7:34 PM

After "forgetting" a few auctions, I just went with a sniper service.  Never "forgot" another.

 

Ed

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