"White eye" on the Big Ivy.

[OT Dean]

Hey, gang, I just finished reading James McCague's epic novel of turn of the century railroading, "The Big Ivy."  My late brother gave me a copy of it a few years before he died, in 1967, and I think I've read and reread it nearly every year since.  Somewhere along the line, I picked up the knowledge that some early railroads used clear or white signal aspects instead of green (which I always thought was dangerous: if the red lens was broken on the signal, "Send for the big hook!").  The firemen would call out, "White eye!" and the engineer would echo, "White eye!" and for the Ivy Flyer, the signals were always white.  However, even after reading it 40 or 50 times (I wore out the first copy and had to find another!), I'd somehow never noticed that a couple of times the signal aspects were described as "red, green, and white," which has me a little bit "at sea."  Can any of you experts clear this up for me?

Happy railroading--and STAY SAFE, everyone.

Deano

[dehusman]

In the 1800's and early 1900's, the colors for signals were:

Red - stop

Green - caution

White/clear - proceed

If you ever look at the old Edison films of railroads, you will see track gangs and employees along the right of way waving "hankerchiefs" at the passing trains, those are actually white "clear" signals telling the approaching train they are off the track and to "hiball".

After about 1910 and certainly by WW1 the railroads had changed over to red-yellow-green that we use today.

[wjstix]

I believe early electric signals like the Hall "banjo" signal actually used clear class on both sides, so light would shine thru it to indicate the way ahead was clear. If the block ahead was occupied, a lens would swing into place to show red. 

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1586239

Later as railroads began running at night, an electric light was added. As noted earlier, a disadvantage was a broken out red (or green) lens would show as clear also. By using three colors, a white signal would mean a lens was broken - and railroad rules said if the signal was perceived to be inoperative, it was to be judged to be giving the most restrictive signal possible, basically 'stop'.

Later, white or "lunar" came back into use eventually for unusual situations. Some railroads have used lunar to indicate a spring switch for example.

[OT Dean]

Thanks, guys.  I thought it was red, yellow, white.  Seems peculiar, to me at least, to have both white and green aspects.  Some modern electric signals have had fail-safe features so if anything went wrong, red would show.  I still haven't figured out how that worked with the upper quadrant semaphore signals, unless there was something in the linkage to the blade that could fail.  I always pictured it as some gearing you'd hear moving the blade if you were near enough...  Oh well, I'm too old to waste time on things that don't affect me.  (Even though I'll never build anything larger than the enginehouse diorama I'm currently working on, I still find myself thinking about how I'd rig switch stands to move with motor type switch machines 'n' stuff like that.)

Stay safe, everyone!

Deano

[dehusman]

OT Dean

Some modern electric signals have had fail-safe features so if anything went wrong, red would show.

Never heard of that.  The failsafe of color lights is that if its something other than normal or the light is out, it means stop.

The failsafe for lights on a semaphore is the semaphore.

OT Dean

I still haven't figured out how that worked with the upper quadrant semaphore signals, unless there was something in the linkage to the blade that could fail.

The failsafe for semaphore blades IS upper quadrant semaphores.  If the linkage breaks then the blade falls to its lowest position, which is stop. 

[oldline1]

Deano,

I have that book and have loved it since I got it about 1973 and read it quite often. He spins a good story.

Another good one is "Long Trains Roll" by Stephen Meador.

oldline1

[OT Dean]

oldline1

Deano,

I have that book and have loved it since I got it about 1973 and read it quite often. He spins a good story.

Another good one is "Long Trains Roll" by Stephen Meador.

oldline1

 

I reread the Meader book after I finished IVY.  I first read "The Long Trains Roll" from our school library back in the '50s, but couldn't remember the title until I asked the MR Discussion group, with a description.  Two others I remember from my school days were "Jeff Roberts, Railroader (B&O)" and "Halloran's Hill (predessor to the Missabi iron roads)."  All three are good, but all three authors were either fed bum dope or their notes were wrong.  Though still a good read, I hadn't remembered Meader had his hero go out solo on his first firing job, during wartime, and also had him jumping down from the cab to throw switches and couple/uncouple from the train.  The Jeff Roberts book was equally good, but the author's research had a lot of info about B&O steam locos wrong.  "Halloran's Hill" was good, too, with a lot of authentic details about railroading through Proctor, MN, but some old-timer sold the author on some nonsense that firemen wore leather aprons to protect their legs and the heat from the open firebox door would crack their shoes (old-timers called these "telling a windy")!

I'm currently finishing "Murder on the Line," by William L. Rohde, which takes place in New England after WWII.  Antoerh longtime favorite of mine is "Iron Bronc," by Will Ermine, about early 20th century railroading out west.  It's a great Western and suffers only from Ermine's story that the Wolf River & Northern is powered by a couple of second-hand, outdated "4-4-2s" on a mountain road in the pre-WWI period.  (I originally whited-out the wheel arrangement and inked in "4-4-0" so it didn't intrude.  When my original copy fell apart and I replaced it (abebooks.com) I didn't bother because my mind was trained to think of "8-wheelers.")  There are a bunch of railroad themed Westerns on my shelf, too, But "The Big Ivy" is the best there is.

Stay safe, evereybody!

Deano

[cv_acr]

OT Dean

Thanks, guys.  I thought it was red, yellow, white.  Seems peculiar, to me at least, to have both white and green aspects.

Seems peculiar to us now, since Red/Yellow/Green has been universally adopted, but at the time there was no such convention.

Recall as well that even in the early 20th century STOP signs were yellow, not red.

[dknelson]

This discussion reminds me of a few things

The late 19th century patented "Nunn" order board was a paddle type order board which turned on a threaded spindle, controlled by an operator using rope or chains or whatever, but if a chain broke the order board on its threaded rod was designed to rotate to the "stop" indication.  It was one of the early supposedly "fail safe" signals, not unlike semaphores. 

I am also reminded a bit of a famous 1972 head-on wreck on the BN near Maquon between Galesburg and Peoria - there were many factors which resulted in the wreck, as is often the case, but one of them is that the crew may have been confused by a semaphore train order signal at Yates City which was supposedly set at stop but the afternoon sun MIGHT have been burning through the exposed green lens.  A "phantom" clear in other words.  

The official recommendation was that the BN change the design of its train order signals (it was likely a CB&Q original) so that there is no possibility that a phantom aspect will be displayed.

As long as we are also discussing railroad literature, anybody else here ever read "Whispering Smith"?  I refer to the novel by Frank Spearman.  It inspired three silent movies (which I have never seen), a Technicolor movie with Alan Ladd among others, and an early TV show starring war hero Audie Murphy.  Smith is a railroad detective.  

Dave Nelson

 

 

[OT Dean]

dknelson

This discussion reminds me of a few things

The late 19th century patented "Nunn" order board was a paddle type order board which turned on a threaded spindle, controlled by an operator using rope or chains or whatever, but if a chain broke the order board on its threaded rod was designed to rotate to the "stop" indication.  It was one of the early supposedly "fail safe" signals, not unlike semaphores. 

I am also reminded a bit of a famous 1972 head-on wreck on the BN near Maquon between Galesburg and Peoria - there were many factors which resulted in the wreck, as is often the case, but one of them is that the crew may have been confused by a semaphore train order signal at Yates City which was supposedly set at stop but the afternoon sun MIGHT have been burning through the exposed green lens.  A "phantom" clear in other words.  

The official recommendation was that the BN change the design of its train order signals (it was likely a CB&Q original) so that there is no possibility that a phantom aspect will be displayed.

As long as we are also discussing railroad literature, anybody else here ever read "Whispering Smith"?  I refer to the novel by Frank Spearman.  It inspired three silent movies (which I have never seen), a Technicolor movie with Alan Ladd among others, and an early TV show starring war hero Audie Murphy.  Smith is a railroad detective.  

Dave Nelson

 

 

 

Thanks, I realized the railroads, as was so often the case, originated signals, so as you said, they were making it up as they went along.  Signals for automobile traffic came along later.  I'm glad you mentioned "Whispering Smith," as I'd somehow left it off of my list of railroad fiction.  It's yet another of my favorites.  I grew up with a 1934 paperback in the funny little bookrack under a fancy cast iron, beveLed wood top table on our sun porch.  The cover says:

"THE PARAMOUNT FILM STARRING ALAN LADD, ROBERT PRESTON, BRENDA MARSHALL, DONALD CRISP WAS BASED ON THIS NOVEL."  (Yeah, loosely based: they left out just about everything, including the entire plot--and even changed Smith's first name from "Gordon" to "Luke!")

It's a top-notch Western, based on the Union Pacific's battle with the Hole in the Wall gang, that's rich in detail that couldn't really be captured in 90 minutes of running time.  I found a DVD of the movie a few years ago and while the script lacks most of the actual story, the railroad equipment used is valuable to modelers of old-time railroading.  A good friend of mine, who operates a mail order store dealing in Western fiction and non-fiction hardcover books, gave me a hardcover copy of it, but I still prefer to read the paperback.  It's like and old friend.  Thanks for reminding me.

Stay safe, everybody!

Deano

[wjstix]

cv_acr

Recall as well that even in the early 20th century STOP signs were yellow, not red.

I believe the recommendation to change STOP signs to red was in 1956 or thereabouts, but yellow ones remained in some areas for some time.

The earliest stop-and-go signs for automobiles (usually manually operated by a traffic cop) were semaphores, not electric lights.

Re semaphores - as mentioned, the semaphores themselves were the failsafe. On electrically controlled signals, like automatic block signals, electricity was required to move the blade up to clear or caution. If the electricity was cut off, the blade was balanced such that the weight of the blade would make it go down to the 'stop' indication.

 

[NittanyLion]

I know where a yellow stop sign is still hanging around in rural western Pennsylvania. I'm just surprised that it hasn't been stolen. 

Here in DC, the Metro uses lunar as the proceed color. The failsafe against missing lenses is the pattern of lights is different between lunar and red. Stop is two reds, proceed is one lunar, and proceed on diverging route is flashing lunar. Missing red lenses would still present two lights which must mean stop, as proceed is only one light. 

[OT Dean]

Sounds sensible.  The railroad industry pretty much had its act together, for a while, anyway.

Deano

[jeffhergert]

Lunar white is still used by the railroads for some signal indications.  Normally it is associated with restricted speed.  Either as requiring restricted speed after passing the signal or with an advance signal indicating restricted speed is required at the next signal. 

Jeff  

[zugmann]

jeffhergert

Lunar white is still used by the railroads for some signal indications.  Normally it is associated with restricted speed.  Either as requiring restricted speed after passing the signal or with an advance signal indicating restricted speed is required at the next signal. 

Jeff  

 

I've seen lunar used to indicate you are lined into a gauntlet track at some stations.  If you approach a station and have a lunar, and you're running a freight train - you gonna wanna stop, and quick. 

One cool thing I've seen done was with Amtrak's LED color postion signals:

They use lunar for the bottom half of the restricting aspect (slow approach which is similar, except the bottom diagonal goes the other way, uses amber).  It's just an added layer of distinction which I thought was cool.