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Turning A Veranda Turbine

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Turning A Veranda Turbine
Posted by caldreamer on Saturday, December 29, 2018 8:46 PM

Would the UP detach the fuel tender from a Veranda Turbine run it onto a turntable and when turned run it off and reatach the fuel tender?

  Thanks In Advance

   Ira Goldberg

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Posted by 7j43k on Saturday, December 29, 2018 8:51 PM

Not if they could help it.  They'd use a wye or loop first.

Of course, if it fits on the turntable WITH the tender, they wouldn't disconnect it.  In this picture, note that the length of the 0-6-0 is about as long as the tender would be:

 A veranda is the same length as the above.

 You might be asking this question because you want to turn YOUR veranda on a small-ish turntable.  I think it was a very rare day when UP did that.  These critters had very particular runs, and I'm sure turning at the end of those runs was well thought out.  They didn't stray much, so the problem of the small turntable had to have been rare.

 

Ed

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Posted by caldreamer on Saturday, December 29, 2018 9:24 PM

Ed:

  You are correct.  My veranda turbine with the tender will not fit on a smaller turntable with the tender attached.  The turbine it self is six inches in length.  The only turntable that will work will be the Walthers 130 ft modern turntable which has a table length of 10.375 inches.  If I use the 8 axle steam tender made by Bachmann instead of the original ConCor tender, I will have 3/8 of an inch to spare, which is cutting it close, but it would fit.

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Posted by 7j43k on Saturday, December 29, 2018 11:16 PM

Since you are doing things that UP didn't do, you might as well do it with gusto.

Meaning.  Uncouple the tender.  Turn the turbine.  Shove the tender onto the turntable.  Turn the tender.  Run the switcher onto the tender.  Shove the tender onto the turbine.

Works for me!

Or.

The verandas ran without tenders for awhile without tenders (looks like maybe 200 yards, or so).  So, leave the tender off.

Ed

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Posted by caldreamer on Sunday, December 30, 2018 8:39 AM

Ed:

  I have both the ConCor turbine tender and the Bachmann 4-8-4 8 wheel tenders.  I can use either one with the veranda turbine. The 8 wheel tender was converted to have MT couplers on both ends as does the Con Cor tender.  A while ago I posted a question as what it would take to convert a gas turbine to use diesel fuel.  The answer was replace the fuel pump. fuel nozels and burn box.  This would allow me to standardize on diesel and use the fuel tenders for multiple units to extend the range of my locomotive fleet.  I is too bad that UP never thought of that.

     Ira

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Posted by 7j43k on Sunday, December 30, 2018 11:08 AM

Ira,

I would be very surprised if UP people never thought of the possibility of using diesel fuel.  But if the turbines had been converted to use diesel fuel, the savings of using Bunker C would have been lost.  That might have been seen as unacceptable.

It has been reported (I think) that the turbines weren't very fuel efficient.  That can be acceptable if the fuel is cheap.  If it gets expensive......

 

Ed

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Posted by caldreamer on Sunday, December 30, 2018 12:16 PM

Yes, but would the ability to extend travel distances by using a fuel tender for multople units mitigate the additional cost fo diesel and time and manpower to refuel the engines?.  I figured out that the 8 axle tender would hold over 31000 gallons of diesel, since it would become one large tank, instead of two (one for fuel oil and the other for water).

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Posted by dti406 on Sunday, December 30, 2018 12:41 PM

I seem to remember when reading a book about the UP Turbines that the price of Bunker C exceeded the price of diesel and the Turbines burned diesel instead.  But since they were fuel hogs the cost of running the Turbines was no financially sound so they were traded in for the Alco C-855’s and the GE U50d’s and U50c’s.

Rick Jesionowski 

Rule 1: This is my railroad.

Rule 2: I make the rules.

Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!

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Posted by caldreamer on Sunday, December 30, 2018 1:43 PM

Rick:

  I was also thinking of saying that my veranda turbine had the new GEVO computerized electronics which would greatly add to the efficency of the locomotive.  This was also asked when I asked about using diesel in the veranda turbine.  It was stated that would be very feasable.

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Posted by 7j43k on Sunday, December 30, 2018 2:14 PM

caldreamer

Would the UP detach the fuel tender from a Veranda Turbine run it onto a turntable and when turned run it off and reatach the fuel tender? 

I see by your later comments that you're doing a sort of alternate reality thing with the veranda. 

The answer to your question itself is pretty much no.  But your implied question, which is more of a "could" rather than a "would", could be answered "Yes".

I found one picture that shows couplers (instead of a drawbar) between the turbine and its tender.  That should be a convenience for you.

Seems you want to keep yours running "today".  And you're right; the efficiency would HAVE to have been improved.  But since gas turbines are powering airplanes even today; it seems doable.

But.  Good news/bad news.  Almost surely the mods would have produced external changes in the locomotive.  They wouldn't have stayed looking the same.  YOU, however, get to think up some believable equipment to hang on yours.

For a bit of UP inspiration, study up on the "Omaha GP20's".

 

Ed

 

PS:  I am no stranger to alternate reality model railroading.  For a VERY long time, I've had a project to build a duplex drive 4-6-6-6.  I've got just a few of the parts, too.

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Posted by caldreamer on Sunday, December 30, 2018 4:38 PM

I can not think of any external changes to the veranda turbine.  All changes would be with the combustion system.  Parts replaced with new ones and a new electrtical cabinet with all new wiring for the computerized controls.

Please expand on what external changes you are thinking of.

    Ira

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Posted by jeffhergert on Sunday, December 30, 2018 4:38 PM

Utah Rails has info on the turbines.  The orginal small turbines didn't have tenders for a couple of months, or years for the very first.

 http://utahrails.net/up/gte-tenders.php

They also used diesel fuel to start the turbines and then switched over to Bunker C.  Good information on bunker C fuel, which was also used in steam engines, and why it fell out of favor as the cost of it rised.  

http://utahrails.net/up/bunker-c.php

Jeff

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Posted by caldreamer on Sunday, December 30, 2018 8:54 PM

Jeff:

  Interesting reading about the tenders and bunker C fuel.  Today with modern refineing processes and the ultra low sulfur diesel the problems of contaminants on the turbine blades would be greatly reduced.

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