What if the NC&StL expanded?

[ncandstl576]

I don't know if asking "what if" questions on railroad history is frowned upon here, but I thought I might give it a go. 

The Nashville, Chattanooga & St. Louis Railway was one of the premier railroads of the South, but was left a surrogate of the larger Louisville & Nashville Railroad after the latter's hostile takeover in 1880. If the L&N had failed to acquire a controlling interest in the NC&StL, how could the latter have expanded? Assuming it still manages to lease the Western & Atlantic, what other smaller systems could it have gained control over to get to cities such as St. Louis (so they could finally live up to their name)?

[richhotrain]

You might want to pose that question on the Classic Trains forum. They thrive on that type of speculation.

Rich

[ncandstl576]

richhotrain

You might want to pose that question on the Classic Trains forum. They thrive on that type of speculation.

Rich

 

D'oh! I wondered how long it would be before I posted something in the wrong place. If it's an issue, can the mods please delete/lock this thread?

[dknelson]

I'd keep the posting here.  Modelers are more familiar with where this kind of informed speculation is supposed to lead.  You'd get very different input elsewhere.  

It isn't too hard to imagine a "what if" scenario when the L&N itself was taken over by JP Morgan interests and handed over to the ACL.  Since the NC & StL was operated separately, that means that at all times it could have been disposed of -- spun off or sold to another parent company - at any time had a need for cash arisen.  Pre WWI.  But would it have prospered without the deep pockets of solvent L&N ownership?  My hunch is that it would have been a more hand-to-mouth operation, keeping old steam, perhaps even old L&N hand me downs, going as long as it possibly could right up to dieselization, in the manner of the M & St L or Rutland, and ironically avoiding most of the streamlined passenger train expenses to boot.

Dave Nelson

 

[dixieflyer]

Easy answer and a long story made very short, the NC&StL would have grown into a trunk line stretching from St. Louis, MO to Savannah, GA. The "hostile" takeover killed that off as the L&N gained control of not only the NC, but also the short lines that the NC was going to take over here in western Kentucky which would have halped secure the northern part of that trunk. At the time the NC was in negotiations with some lines south/southeast of Atlanta to Savannah. 

Such is the world of business, survivial of the fittest, and evidently the NC didn't move fast enough or smart enough. The NC got eaten by the L&N fish, which was in turn eatern by the ACL fish. That's how things go.

I can try to give you some more info if you want it, what little I have. 

Warren

[ncandstl576]

dixieflyer

Easy answer and a long story made very short, the NC&StL would have grown into a trunk line stretching from St. Louis, MO to Savannah, GA. The "hostile" takeover killed that off as the L&N gained control of not only the NC, but also the short lines that the NC was going to take over here in western Kentucky which would have halped secure the northern part of that trunk. At the time the NC was in negotiations with some lines south/southeast of Atlanta to Savannah. 

Such is the world of business, survivial of the fittest, and evidently the NC didn't move fast enough or smart enough. The NC got eaten by the L&N fish, which was in turn eatern by the ACL fish. That's how things go.

I can try to give you some more info if you want it, what little I have. 

Warren

 

Yes please, I'd be quite interested, feel free to PM me. Thanks to all the other posters as well, I find this kind of speculation very interesting, and I may start threads like this for lines like the Tennessee Central and Minneapolis & St. Louis.

[richhotrain]

Take a look at this thread. It may be helpful in that it lists railroads serving St. Louis Union Station at one time or another in the 20th century. One of them could be your desired route into St. Louis via acquisition.

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/13/t/158393.aspx

Rich

[ncandstl576]

richhotrain

Take a look at this thread. It may be helpful in that it lists railroads serving St. Louis Union Station at one time or another in the 20th century. One of them could be your desired route into St. Louis via acquisition.

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/13/t/158393.aspx

Rich

 

Thanks, this should come in handy.

[NHTX]

     Those with an interest in railroad expansion and the machinations involved would be well served by books covering the history of the company of interest.  There are two titles on the NC&St.L that may serve you well:

     Nashville, Chattanooga, & St. Louis--A History of the Dixie Line

         Author: Dain L. Schultz          Publisher: TLC Publishing

     Nashville, Chattanooga, & St. Louis Railway

         Author: Richard E. Prince       Publisher: Indiana University Press

     There are a number of sellers of railroad books, just check them out for the best prices.  Good luck.

[Doughless]

dixieflyer

Easy answer and a long story made very short, the NC&StL would have grown into a trunk line stretching from St. Louis, MO to Savannah, GA. The "hostile" takeover killed that off as the L&N gained control of not only the NC, but also the short lines that the NC was going to take over here in western Kentucky which would have halped secure the northern part of that trunk. At the time the NC was in negotiations with some lines south/southeast of Atlanta to Savannah. 

Such is the world of business, survivial of the fittest, and evidently the NC didn't move fast enough or smart enough. The NC got eaten by the L&N fish, which was in turn eatern by the ACL fish. That's how things go.

I can try to give you some more info if you want it, what little I have. 

Warren

 

That sounds like the Central of Georgia.  It stretched from Chat to Sav by bypassing Atlanta to the west.  Would have made an excellent extension for a more westerly or northerly RR to have access to the Savannah port.

[ncandstl576]

This is all likely old news to everyone here, but what happened to TLC Publishing? To have such a wide catalogue, it just seems they disappeared. I don't mind paying a little more, but $100+ for a book in poor condition is a little too much to ask.

[NHTX]

      Not knowing the story with TLC, I can offer the following.  Karen's Books,  ph:760-736-9288 (www.karensbooks.com) lists the TLC book at $35.95.  Amazon has some used, like new copies for less than $50.

[ncandstl576]

NHTX

      Not knowing the story with TLC, I can offer the following.  Karen's Books,  ph:760-736-9288 (www.karensbooks.com) lists the TLC book at $35.95.  Amazon has some used, like new copies for less than $50.

 

Thanks, this site has several of the ones I was looking for!

Going into a bit of modelling philosophy, when we model a "what if" scenario, how much do we change? Using the example in this thread, could the NC&StL still have diesels painted in blue/gray and red/gold, running under similar (if not the same) timetables, with the same locomotives? Does the 'butterfly effect' do away with this?

[NHTX]

      NC7StL 576. When I model a scenario, I take my guidance from the prototype.  Even if we freelance, most of us have a prototype we have an affinity for and, although we freelance locations, industries, even motive power and rolling stock rosters, there is a prototype that tends to influence our decisions.

     As to whether or not the NC&StL would have locomotives running in different paint schemes simultaneously depends on a number of factors.  What is the financial health of the railroad?  A railroad with cash flow problems will put painting equipment far down on the list of expenditures--if it even registers at all.  Another factor is the size of the fleet.  As of last year I saw two different AC4400CWs in full Southern Pacific paint except for yellow patches for the numbers, in service on the UP, over 20 years after the takeover by UP.  When Penn Central took over New Haven and it's group of 45 Alco RS-3s in 1969, they wore five different paint schemes, including delivery from 1950!  Minneapolis & St. Louis was also notorious for multiple paint schemes.  I have a photograph of Gulf, Mobile and Ohio 627, a GP-35 in original black and white paint, on an SP freight between Sanderson and Marathon Texas in 1980.  The GM&O merged with the Illinois Central in 1972.  One more factor in deciding whether or not a locomotive gets repainted into the latest paint scheme would be the likelihood of it being retired soon.  In the 1960s and 70s this was especially true for minority builders products. No reason to paint an engine that is going to the torch, trade-in, or the XYZ Central in a few weeks or months.

    You are on the right track in learning and following your prototype in practice. Enjoy. 

[ncandstl576]

NHTX

      NC7StL 576. When I model a scenario, I take my guidance from the prototype.  Even if we freelance, most of us have a prototype we have an affinity for and, although we freelance locations, industries, even motive power and rolling stock rosters, there is a prototype that tends to influence our decisions.

     As to whether or not the NC&StL would have locomotives running in different paint schemes simultaneously depends on a number of factors.  What is the financial health of the railroad?  A railroad with cash flow problems will put painting equipment far down on the list of expenditures--if it even registers at all.  Another factor is the size of the fleet.  As of last year I saw two different AC4400CWs in full Southern Pacific paint except for yellow patches for the numbers, in service on the UP, over 20 years after the takeover by UP.  When Penn Central took over New Haven and it's group of 45 Alco RS-3s in 1969, they wore five different paint schemes, including delivery from 1950!  Minneapolis & St. Louis was also notorious for multiple paint schemes.  I have a photograph of Gulf, Mobile and Ohio 627, a GP-35 in original black and white paint, on an SP freight between Sanderson and Marathon Texas in 1980.  The GM&O merged with the Illinois Central in 1972.  One more factor in deciding whether or not a locomotive gets repainted into the latest paint scheme would be the likelihood of it being retired soon.  In the 1960s and 70s this was especially true for minority builders products. No reason to paint an engine that is going to the torch, trade-in, or the XYZ Central in a few weeks or months.

    You are on the right track in learning and following your prototype in practice. Enjoy. 

 

NHTX

      NC7StL 576. When I model a scenario, I take my guidance from the prototype.  Even if we freelance, most of us have a prototype we have an affinity for and, although we freelance locations, industries, even motive power and rolling stock rosters, there is a prototype that tends to influence our decisions.

     As to whether or not the NC&StL would have locomotives running in different paint schemes simultaneously depends on a number of factors.  What is the financial health of the railroad?  A railroad with cash flow problems will put painting equipment far down on the list of expenditures--if it even registers at all.  Another factor is the size of the fleet.  As of last year I saw two different AC4400CWs in full Southern Pacific paint except for yellow patches for the numbers, in service on the UP, over 20 years after the takeover by UP.  When Penn Central took over New Haven and it's group of 45 Alco RS-3s in 1969, they wore five different paint schemes, including delivery from 1950!  Minneapolis & St. Louis was also notorious for multiple paint schemes.  I have a photograph of Gulf, Mobile and Ohio 627, a GP-35 in original black and white paint, on an SP freight between Sanderson and Marathon Texas in 1980.  The GM&O merged with the Illinois Central in 1972.  One more factor in deciding whether or not a locomotive gets repainted into the latest paint scheme would be the likelihood of it being retired soon.  In the 1960s and 70s this was especially true for minority builders products. No reason to paint an engine that is going to the torch, trade-in, or the XYZ Central in a few weeks or months.

    You are on the right track in learning and following your prototype in practice. Enjoy. 

 

Thanks NHTX, if I understand correctly, blue and gray was the NC&StL passenger scheme, while red and gold was the freight scheme. 

[NHTX]

      I'm not that familiar with NC&StL, although I do have the two books I recommended and an interest in railroading in the south.  If your interest is what NC&StL did, go for it!!   Many major class ones had different paint schemes for passenger, freight and even yard power.  PRR, ATSF, SLSF, MP, C&O, CB&Q, NYC, etc, etc.

[dixieflyer]

ncandstl576

Thanks NHTX, if I understand correctly, blue and gray was the NC&StL passenger scheme, while red and gold was the freight scheme.

 

No, not quite. The red/gold scheme was for the GP's, switchers, etc. in freight service, and the blue/grey was for their F units which could be found in both passenger and freight service if memory serves.

Warren

[ncandstl576]

dixieflyer

 

 

ncandstl576

Thanks NHTX, if I understand correctly, blue and gray was the NC&StL passenger scheme, while red and gold was the freight scheme.

 

 

 

No, not quite. The red/gold scheme was for the GP's, switchers, etc. in freight service, and the blue/grey was for their F units which could be found in both passenger and freight service if memory serves.

Warren

 

Thanks, I'm guessing any other cab units the NC&StL bought would have received the blue and gray scheme?

Thanks to dixieflyer, I know the two lines the NC&StL was trying to acquire were the Owensboro & Nashville Railroad and the Louisville, Henderson & St. Louis Railroad. Had the NC&StL managed to absorb them, they would have gained access to St. Louis rather than the L&N. What would the L&N have done here to reach that city here?

What happens in this universe to the trains the L&N shared with the NC&StL, assuming they still exist? What other railroads will the two have to use? I'm guessing the NC&StL could use the SAL to get to Florida like the L&N did with the ACL (of course, the L&N also shared the Gulf Wind with the SAL). Would they still be able to use the C&EI and Central of Georgia?

[NHTX]

     NCandStL576;

     Are you aware of the NC&St.L Preservation Society?  They are dedicated to all things NC&St.L and would probably be able to provide you access to a lot of information on subjects of interest to you.  Their web site is www.ncps-576.org.  Their annual membership costs $20 per single member.  The good thing about these groups is they often have people who actually worked for the company of interest but, since the NC became part of the L&N in 1957, there may not be many if any, by now.  Another feature of some groups is an on-line forum for the exchange of information.  Without a major rewrite of history (Family Lines, Seaboard System, CSX, Amtrak, Southern, Central of Georgia, Savannah & Atlanta, etc, etc.) who is to say what today would look like if none of the foregoing had never occurred?

 

[ncandstl576]

NHTX

     NCandStL576;

     Are you aware of the NC&St.L Preservation Society?  They are dedicated to all things NC&St.L and would probably be able to provide you access to a lot of information on subjects of interest to you.  Their web site is www.ncps-576.org.  Their annual membership costs $20 per single member.  The good thing about these groups is they often have people who actually worked for the company of interest but, since the NC became part of the L&N in 1957, there may not be many if any, by now.  Another feature of some groups is an on-line forum for the exchange of information.  Without a major rewrite of history (Family Lines, Seaboard System, CSX, Amtrak, Southern, Central of Georgia, Savannah & Atlanta, etc, etc.) who is to say what today would look like if none of the foregoing had never occurred?

 

 

Thanks, I was aware of the NC&StL preservation society, and I'll definitely consider membership. I've sent them a few messages over the past few months, but so far none have received a response (of course, they're probably just busy).