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SP Color Scheme

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  • Member since
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SP Color Scheme
Posted by Old Fat Robert on Monday, June 11, 2018 9:57 AM

On a recent visit to the LHS, I was shown the newly introduced BLI Southern Pacific Cab Forward. What a truly beautiful model! One of the things that got my attention was the paint scheme: Soft grey boiler and the red cab roof along with some silver and white details. I am not a follower of the SP so I must ask what, if any, routes had this scheme? Passenger use maybe?

Old Fat Robert

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Posted by RR_Mel on Monday, June 11, 2018 10:28 AM

I’m an SP Nut and my SP goto web site is ESPEE Modelers Archive and there is no mention of a Cab Forward with any grey boiler or red roof.
 
 
 
I have all but one of my 16 Cab Forwards painted black with silver smoke boxes, early 50s era.  I grew up in El Paso in the early 50s, El Paso was the eastern end of the Southern Cab Forward route and every Cab Forward I saw was black with silver.
 
The BLI is a very early Cab Forward (AC5 1929) and could have been painted red from Baldwin, all the early pictures of the AC5s are monochrome.
 
SP Historical & Technical Society site.
 
 
 
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by VOLKER LANDWEHR on Monday, June 11, 2018 10:42 AM

The grey boilered cab forward might be BLI's interpretation of the following Baldwin builder's photo (SP 4133): http://www.railpictures.net/showimage.php?id=639176&key=4177752

If BLI got the colors right I don't dare to judge. If yes I doubt that the locomotive was delivered to SP in this paint scheme.

For me it looks like a paint selection for a builder's photo used to get optimal photo results showing all details.
Regards, Volker

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Posted by Old Fat Robert on Monday, June 11, 2018 11:55 AM

Mel & Volker: Thank you for your replies. BTW, that is a cracking good picture of the locomotive Volker. I am not trying to find fault or error, I just wanted to know if the SP had such a color scheme. The idea of a (builders') paint job to show the details for a client makes sense.It does make me wonder in a very small way what sort of documentation was used to produce this outstanding model.

Old Fat Robert

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Posted by RR_Mel on Monday, June 11, 2018 12:47 PM

The California Railroad Museum in Sacramento has the blueprints for the Baldwin Cab Forward and the Lima AC-9.  The problem is they are archived using the manufactures labeling to witch a normal model railroader can’t decipher.
 
I spent two days searching the archives for information in the late 90s to make a HO model of an AC-9 and finally gave up.  
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by VOLKER LANDWEHR on Monday, June 11, 2018 12:54 PM

I think, SP never had a paint scheme like BLI's #4133.

Since 1913 SP had company wide paint standards for their steam locomotives:

- Officially From 1913: https://railroadheritage.org/local/data/images/Img--00003170.jpg

- Officially from 1916: https://sites.google.com/site/atlanticsteamlocomotives/_/rsrc/1406038463249/home/atlantics-built-1895-1901/1902/1903/1904/IMG_0006-010.jpg

- Officially from 1946: http://www.steamlocomotive.com/whyte/4-8-0/USA/photos/sp2914-weber.jpg

In all paint scheme the boiler, cab, tender are black. Smokebox and smokebox front are graphite except front in aluminum since 1946.

That doesn't mean that all locomotives were repainted at the given dates. New locomotives got the schemes when delivered and others when repainting was due.

Old Fat Robert
It does make me wonder in a very small way what sort of documentation was used to produce this outstanding model.

For one they had the photo. On the other hand Baldwin had standardized paint styles that were used when the railroad didn't specify a paint scheme. Perhaps Baldwin used the standard of the time and BLI had it.

Here is Style 220 for a tank engine around the turn of the 20th century: http://loggingmallets.railfan.net/sub/paintdiagram.gif

Or Style 291 for a locomotive with tender in the same time period: http://www.pacificng.com/ref/locobuilders/blw/style/stylediag/S219-CairnsMulgrave-B13-4-6-0.png

Perhaps BLI just exchanged the olive green with black. The grey areas were planished iron.
Regards, Volker

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Posted by VOLKER LANDWEHR on Tuesday, June 12, 2018 4:39 AM

After looking through a number of photos of early SP steam it seems clear to me that SP received locomotives with planished iron cladded boilers well into the 1900s.

A number of Atlantics were specified this way in 1902. I've seen the specs. http://espee.railfan.net/nonindex/steam-02/3048_sp-steam-a03-byron_bostwick.jpg

There are photos of cab forwards too.

MC-2 4004 in 1909?: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/sp4004.jpg

AC-6 4126 in 1930?: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/sp4126.jpg
AC-6 4133 again, not dated: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/sp4133.jpg

I'd understand that a locomotive builder invests the effort of a builder's photo paint job to the class locomotive, but to several? 

So when was the last planished iron boilered Baldwin steam locomotive delivered to SP? So the change from planished iron to black is not clear to me anymore.

I checked my dates given in the previous post against the "Southern Pacific Painting and Lettering Guide". They show lettering changes. The guide states all as basic black in the steam era after 1913.

Baldwin delivered a planished iron boilered locomotive to the McCloud River RR with its 2-8-2 #19 in 1915.
Regards, Volker

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Posted by VOLKER LANDWEHR on Tuesday, June 12, 2018 11:51 AM

I have searched for Baldwin's order specifications and found some here: http://digitalcollections.smu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/rwy/id/32

It can be troublesome and time consuming to find a special locomotive as only the volume number is given but not the years of the collected documents.

Volume 82 contains the specs for SP AC-4, AC-5, and AC-6: https://sites.smu.edu/cdm/cul/extra/degolyer/rwy/BaldwinManuscripts/mss0061_02_82_opt.pdf

Sorry, the file is almost 370 MB large and can take quite some time to load depending on one's internet connection.

- AC-4, pages 612/613: Painting: black, no striping
- AC-5, pages 645/646: Painting: black, no striping
- AC-6, pages 677/678: Painting: black, no striping

So SP AC-6 #4133 was ordered complete black with no grey boiler or mineral cab roof.
Regards, Volker

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Posted by Old Fat Robert on Tuesday, June 12, 2018 6:56 PM

Volker, you are amazing. Terrific research. I and my new found knowledge salute you. Thanks again.

Old Fat Robert

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Posted by VOLKER LANDWEHR on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 9:25 AM

Thanks, you're welcome.

I got a bit confused by my own research and had doubt if I was right. For my own sake I looked for the order specification sheets as last resort and was lucky.
Regards, Volker

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Posted by Old Fat Robert on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 10:24 AM

Volker: Using a university library as a "base camp" for your research is brilliant. I wish I knew why I did not think of it. Yet I am curious (not in any way judgemental) -  why SMU? Before any readers get their knickers in a twist, I know that SMU is a world class institution. Just wondering about the relationship.

Old Fat Robert

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Posted by VOLKER LANDWEHR on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 1:27 PM

Old Fat Robert
Volker: Using a university library as a "base camp" for your research is brilliant.

I was just lucky. I remembered I had seen Baldwin specifications on the net somewhere but didn't remember where. A Google search led to the SMU.

The SMU's library is called DeGolyer Library and is named after Everette Lee DeGolyer who made the library possible with a gift. I read somewhere that the Baldwin specifications came from Mr. DeGolyer's collection.
Regards, Volker

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Posted by Old Fat Robert on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 5:58 PM

Thank you again for your research.

Old Fat Robert

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