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SD-40s and other delights... Same thread new questions...

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SD-40s and other delights... Same thread new questions...
Posted by NWP SWP on Tuesday, April 10, 2018 11:07 PM

What are the models of the SD-4x lineup specifically the variants. I am trying get to find a picture of a SD-45M that supposedly was built 34 strong for the Erie Lackawanna, I googled it and can't find anything. Thanks!

HERE'S MY NEW QUESTION:

I was reading about EMD's F45 and that supposedly (according to Wikipedia) BN/GN ordered the units to protect their crews from the elements, and ATSF bought them for aesthetics.

Now the BN/GN reasoning somwhat makes sense due to another supposed (I forget the source but it wasn't Wiki, maybe a rail DVD) anyways supposedly Espee crews on Donner preferred the Cowl units like Fs, Es, and PAs over hood units like Geeps and Seeds, because they had more "protection from the elements" now whether all this is true is questionable. Thanks!

Steven

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, April 10, 2018 11:30 PM

NWP SWP
I am trying get to find a picture of a SD-45M that supposedly was built 34 strong for the Erie Lackawanna

Are you thinking of the SDP units that were bought specifically for the larger fuel-tank capacity?

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Posted by NWP SWP on Tuesday, April 10, 2018 11:35 PM

This is the article I read.

"The Erie Lackawanna Railroad ordered 34 SD45Ms in 1969 and 1970. Intended for freight service, these units had a long metal head end; the extra space aft of the radiators had concrete ballast. Their longer frames permitted a larger fuel tank which gave the locomotives a greater range between fuel stops"

So the answer to your question, yes.

Steven

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Posted by SSW9389 on Wednesday, April 11, 2018 12:19 AM

Here is a whole page of photo links of Erie Lackawanna SDP45s: 

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/loco/sdp45.html 

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Posted by SSW9389 on Wednesday, April 11, 2018 12:31 AM

There were two orders to EMD for these units. 

34976-34994 05-06/69 (7174)
Erie Lackawanna 3635-3653

 

36658-36665 07-08/70 (7246)
Erie Lackawanna 3654-3661

 

36880-36886 08/70 (7246 cont'd)
Erie Lackawanna 3662-3668

Diesel data from A. J. Kristopans. You will find that the majority of information about these Erie Lackawanna units will call them SDP45s. The 1990 EMD Product Data shows that 33 of these SDP45 units were still on the Conrail roster. 

 

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Posted by gmpullman on Wednesday, April 11, 2018 1:07 AM

Athearn Genesis produces a very nice likeness in HO!

 EL_3666b by Edmund, on Flickr

I used to see them running near the ore docks around Cleveland and on the main line in the Meadville, PA, Kent, Ohio, area.

 EL_3666 by Edmund, on Flickr

Occasionally I would see them M-Ued with some of the displaced passenger E-8s. Now that made for a sharp-looking train! Someday I have to get around to lowering those horns. The Erie had them mounted lower and more forward to clear the low tunnel leading to the Cleveland Ore docks.

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, April 11, 2018 10:38 AM

One of these survives, reasonably intact, in the back lot of the Museum of Transportation (VMT) in Roanoke.  If I recall correctly, its principal issue is a bad turbo.  I get a little comfort every time I see it there and know it's safe.

It would be interesting to know how many of these still survive with later owners and in lease fleets.  The information on the fallenflags site indicates some of the history, but not the present status.

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Posted by dti406 on Wednesday, April 11, 2018 12:33 PM

The SDP45's (SD45M's on the EL) were purchased primarily for the ability to have a 5,000 gal fuel tank, similar to the last group of SD45's that the EL purchased where the air tanks were moved to the end of the long hood so they could also have the larger fuel tank.

And contrary to popular belief they did not have the large fuel tank to go from NY to Chicago on one tank of fuel, but they were to go from Marion, OH (where the EL had a large diesel facility), to either Chicago or NY and back in order to take advantage of the lower taxes on fuel in Marion versus refueling in either Chicago or NY.

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Posted by NWP SWP on Wednesday, April 11, 2018 2:40 PM

" these units had a long metal head end; the extra space aft of the radiators had concrete ballast."

What's the "long metal head end" the article refers to?

Steven

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Posted by dti406 on Wednesday, April 11, 2018 3:13 PM

On a standard SDP45 the area aft of the radiator fans held a steam generator and water tanks for passenger service, since these were in freight service they did not have the flat end like the SP or GN units, but a pointed real end that was filled with concrete to give extra weight for traction, especially as the fuel tank emptied.

Rick Jesionowski

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Posted by mbinsewi on Wednesday, April 11, 2018 10:10 PM

The WC had one, #6634.  It was former EL 3656.

Mike.

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Posted by NWP SWP on Wednesday, April 11, 2018 11:04 PM

I wonder if EMD ever proposed a successor to the DDa40x units, maybe a DD45 or a HT-B-B 45 unit (borrowing from the experimental HT-B-B truck they tested with BN on a SD45)

Another idea for the files of the NWP-SWP shops is a SDP45-2T that's a Special Duty Passenger 45-2 Tunnel, that's to run passenger trains over the several mountain passes on the NWP-SWP system.

 

Back to the subject at hand, so the EL units were basically SDP45s with increased fuel capacity, sans steam generator, and ballasted for higher traction?

Steven

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, April 12, 2018 9:39 AM

NWP SWP
I wonder if EMD ever proposed a successor to the DDa40x units, maybe a DD45 or a HT-B-B 45 unit (borrowing from the experimental HT-B-B truck they tested with BN on a SD45)

The DD units were to my knowledge never seriously considered by any road other than UP.  At that time most Eastern roads would not have considered double-diesel designs to be particularly 'economical', particularly in the sandwich configurations for long, heavy trains that EMD had been marketing up to the era of the Centennials.  We will not go into issues of track mechanics and lateral motion in general long-term use, but there are reasons no railroad would want a limited number of specialized D-truck locomotives in an era when much high-speed early intermodal was still optimized around non-Flexicoil B trucks.

The same is my takeaway from the HT-B-B testing: if there had been the least shred of demand for the idea, some railroad or other would actually have ordered a locomotive with the arrangement on both ends.  I think we can say categorically that BN saw no meaningful reason to place actual orders, or even conduct extended testing.  (This aside from the general success, partly driven by expediency and partly by necessity, of the span-bolster B-B truck arrangements as used in Brazil). 

What you saw at the time was an emphasis in different directions, culminating on the one hand in much higher achieved HP per axle (with slip and creep control) and various combinations of ZWT and radial-steering arrangements in conventional B and C truck geometry and secondary 'pivot' arrangements.  I do not think that any aspect of the 'market failure' of 6000hp C-C locomotives can be attributed to the truck configuration (and while the GE version of steerable axles still strikes me as extremely strange, CSX operates locomotives with those trucks to this day, albeit with derated or replaced prime movers).

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Posted by NWP SWP on Thursday, April 12, 2018 8:21 PM

I see. 

What are some of the other variants of SD4x series?

Steven

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Posted by xdford on Friday, April 13, 2018 4:14 AM

NWP SWP

I see. 

What are some of the other variants of SD4x series?

 

Hello Steven

Check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GM-EMD_locomotives. I got it by typing in "EMD SD diesel locomotives" into the browser

Regards from Australia

Trevor

 

 

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Posted by NWP SWP on Saturday, April 14, 2018 4:59 PM

I saw a picture of a GP40PH-2, looks like a GP40 and a F40PH  MU'ed and had this.

Was there ever an SD version?

Steven

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Posted by gmpullman on Saturday, April 14, 2018 5:18 PM

NWP SWP
Was there ever an SD version?

You could start here and replace the cab with one from a donor, or get one from Cannon or one of the diesel detail suppliers.

 Amtrak_SDP2 by Edmund, on Flickr

 

Cannon site:

https://shop.cannonandco.net/category.sc?categoryId=9

Good Luck, Ed

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Posted by NWP SWP on Saturday, April 14, 2018 8:30 PM

I'm looking at a few on eBay, I think I have the money to spend on a project like this, the question is do I use the chassis and cab of a SD45 and just use a FP45 shell for the body or use a FP45 chassis and body and a SD45 shell for the cab, decisions, decisions. Laugh

Steven

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Posted by xdford on Saturday, April 14, 2018 9:26 PM

NWP SWP
he following post 4 hours ago: I saw a picture of a GP40PH-2, looks like a GP40 and a F40PH  MU'ed and had this...

Was there ever an SD version?

Hello Steven,

While not exactly what you are looking for, there is a loco in Australia that was a cross between an E9 and an F45  to wit...

http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr0404/anrcl5.jpg

the last of which was built in 1972. I am of the belief that Amtrak wanted to use the Bulldog nose for the first cowl units it bought in 1973 and those locos could have looked like the Commonwealth Railways/Australian National CL classes.

Before there were models of these locos available, I toyed with the idea of making a similar loco using an FP45 body on an F45 chassis with an F unit front.  I liked the D&H scheme applied to the PA's and thought a hypothetical replacement for PA's could have been...

The fun of modelling, quelled at the time by career needs and raising children...

Regards from Australia,

Trevor

 

 

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Posted by mbinsewi on Saturday, April 14, 2018 11:19 PM

If I were to build this loco, I would start with an F40ph, saw off the cab, and replace it with a spartan cab style from a GP40.

There would be some scratch building, to get the body to fit the cab.

Mike.

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Posted by NWP SWP on Saturday, April 14, 2018 11:24 PM

I'll add that to my list of projects. Hopefully I can start on it soon.

Steven

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Posted by NWP SWP on Saturday, May 26, 2018 8:05 PM

Not to dig up an old thread, but I guess it's better than starting another, why did BN and ATSF order SD45s as F45s, Wiki claims that ATSF did it for aesthetics and BN did it to protect crews from the elements, is this true?

Steven

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Posted by NWP SWP on Saturday, May 26, 2018 11:34 PM

Copied from the OP so nobody misses it.

I was reading about EMD's F45 and that supposedly (according to Wikipedia) BN/GN ordered the units to protect their crews from the elements, and ATSF bought them for aesthetics.

Now the BN/GN reasoning somwhat makes sense due to another supposed (I forget the source but it wasn't Wiki, maybe a rail DVD) anyways supposedly Espee crews on Donner preferred the Cowl units like Fs, Es, and PAs over hood units like Geeps and Seeds, because they had more "protection from the elements" now whether all this is true is questionable. Thanks!

 

Steven

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Sunday, May 27, 2018 9:02 PM

Steven, what happened to all the miryad of other projects you have discussed on MR forums.  They seem to change week to week, even day to day.  My head shakes and spins with it all Tongue Tied The wind seems to change so often have you actually followed through with anything as you lead all these poor men on Mr toads wild ride.  DeadDots - Sign

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Posted by PRR8259 on Monday, May 28, 2018 12:23 PM

NWP SWP--

Some of the questions you've been asking are easily answered with a little bit more research and reading...perhaps you are too busy? idk.

There were thousands of SD40's and their variants built.  They were great engines, very rugged and dependable if not meeting all of today's specs.  There was an SD40A model, unique to Illinois Central, that I believe also was a larger fuel tanked version...not sure if it rode on a Dash 2 frame...don't know as it's not available in HO other than in brass.

You have asked, apparently several times about the Santa Fe's cowl units.  The FP45 was designed first and foremost for Santa Fe to replace aging passenger units.  As documented by author Fred Frailey in Twilight of the Great Trains, Santa Fe was the one railroad characterized as being the "true believers" in the continued viability of long distance passenger travel.  They had the best maintained equipment, and more of it, than anybody else.  Much of Amtrak's starting fleet was former Santa Fe equipment.  They were by far the largest railroad to seriously consider staying out of Amtrak entirely.  (Rio Grande and Southern both did, along with D&H, but none of them lasted beyond 1984 or so with passenger operations).

By the late 1960's Santa Fe's passenger diesels were aging, and they asked all 3 builders to design and construct replacements.  GE built the U28CG and the U30CG, and EMD provided the FP45, all 3 models for passenger service.  Alco declined to provide a new passenger diesel.  Once the mail contract was lost, I believe during fall of 1967, the bottom fell out of the passenger operations (the U.S. Mail business was helping to subsidize the passenger trains)...and suddenly Santa Fe had new high speed diesels without a need for them.

They pioneered the fastest scheduled intermodal freight train in history, the Super C, starting I think sometime during 1969 and last till about 1975, and authorized 90 mph running over long stretches of the Santa Fe (some engineers were seriously pushing 100 mph with the piggyback flats).  The FP45's, and later, the F45's were used for those trains, as well as other priority Santa Fe trains.

Yes, ATSF and GN and Milwaukee Road loved the F45/FP45 for winter maintenance, so that the crews could have access under the shelter of the long hood rather than out in winter weather, but the whole design concept in the first place was primarily due to the Santa Fe's need to replace worn out F units and Alco PA's with something that looked good for high speed passenger service.  The other northern roads just saw the possibilities of how it could be useful to them.

Without the Santa Fe having asked for the cowl units, we do not know that the F45's would ever have been conceived and built.

John

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Posted by NWP SWP on Monday, May 28, 2018 7:50 PM

John, I am a tad busy, but also I only have Internet access with a smart phone. Where would be an accurate source for information on the web?

I was looking at SD4X variants one of which is SD45X a 4200HP SD45 variant, identifiable by its four, FOUR radiator fans!

Steven

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Posted by mbinsewi on Monday, May 28, 2018 9:22 PM

Check out this link, buildt by a very talented modeler.

http://www.pbase.com/tracktime/sd45x_elizabeth_allen&page=all

Found very quickly and easily on Google.

Mike.

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Posted by PRR8259 on Monday, May 28, 2018 9:47 PM

Accurate information on the web?  Isn't that an oxymoron...well on some issues, yes it is. But I digress...

www.rrpicturearchives.net

You can search by railroad, by fallen flag railroad, by locomotive model, by freight car official classification group (site explains the grouping)...many different ways.  It is an invaluable website.

Sometimes the contributors make mistakes in their identification of diesel models, but the pictures themselves never lie!  Looking at the surrounding pictures of the same item usually results in one being able to catch the occasional mistake.  One can learn an awful lot on this website alone.

Another great site...search for fallen flag rail photos...

John

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Posted by NWP SWP on Monday, May 28, 2018 9:48 PM

I saw that, very skilled execution of a model of that unit!

How was the X uprated to 4200 HP?

I did a few searches and found that the unit was powered by a EMD V20 645E3A Turbo, could the extra cooling capacity be the source? I see that the engine had a slightly higher max RPM, 950 instead of 900, does 50 RPM make that much of a power increase? I guess it could because more air moves through the engine per second thereby spinning the turbo faster and in turn pushing more air into the engine.

Steven

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Posted by NorthWest on Tuesday, May 29, 2018 12:09 AM

The SD45Xs were very much testbeds for a lot of things, including the then-new HTC truck and Dash-2 electronics and an uprated 645. Bumping the prime mover to 950 RPM is how EMD made the 16-645 3500/3600 horsepower in the SD50, though they had reliability issues.

The SD45Xs didn't last long in service, barely making 1980. This likely means either problems or enough uniqueness to make them troublesome in the shops.

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