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Implications Of Moving Abandoned Locomotives And Rolling Stock

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Implications Of Moving Abandoned Locomotives And Rolling Stock
Posted by NWP SWP on Monday, March 20, 2017 12:58 PM

Hi I have an interesting conundrum for all of you. Ok first on a highway near my house there is a grade crossing for a unused railline (at least it was/is at the moment but it will probably be in use soon due to all the track work going on) and when I look down the line I see a caboose that appears to be either in a siding or something what would be the logistical implications of moving it about ten miles away to my house (I live on 8 acres so space isn't a problem) now this is just curiosity so its not like I'm actually going to do it. Here is a link to Google Maps Earth View of the cabooses current location: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ethel,+LA+70730/@30.7177489,-91.2152609,109m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x862684069cfdb7d3:0x57910e232d72e70f!8m2!3d30.7905788!4d-91.1313095

And now for my second question, I was googleing about NYC P2 Boxcabs when I learned of a few locos and some rolling stock that is just rotting away in Glenmont, NY at Beacon Island and I was wondering what would it take to get some or all of the equipment out of there and all the way down here to Louisiana I'm especially interested in the boxcab in the picture below. Also here's a link to a Google Map of the area: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Beacon+Island/@42.6004263,-73.7658747,291a,35y,270h/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89dde19154cfa573:0xa8ef729b1a81baee!8m2!3d42.6034132!4d-73.765399

T-3 #278/NYC S-1 #100 Glenmont 2012

NYC T-3 #278

Modeling the combined lines of the Southern Pacific, Western Pacific, and Northern Pacific after a fictional Depression Era merger forming the SouthWestern Pacific and NorthWestern Pacific Railroads. SP, WP, and NP operations remain independent but also operate alongside NWP and SWP equipment.

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Posted by carl425 on Monday, March 20, 2017 1:45 PM

The most serious implication would jail.

If this is truly an academic curiosity, there are several articles and videos about moving cabooses.  Try google.

Here's a guy that did it for just over 9 grand.

http://www.caboosenut.com/movingcaboose.htm

I have the right to remain silent.  By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.

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Posted by 7j43k on Monday, March 20, 2017 2:01 PM

If a person were going to move either of those things (the caboose or the locomotive), they could be moved either on the rails pretty much as they are OR as a load.

The former is almost impossible, because the equipment would have to be "brought up to code", so to speak.  And with permission of what I would think would be a vast number of large corporations and government agencies.

OR.

As a load.  Nobody much cares about the condition of a load, other than it be secured, not overweight, and not leaking non-approved chemicals.  You could transport it with a wheeled vehicle (a flat bed or low boy) or on rails.  Either might have to be partially diassembled, mainly for clearances during transport.

For something only a few miles away, diligent effort might find a clever low-cost method.  MAYBE.

 

FWIW, when I was just a few years older than 16, I and a buddy were offered a real live PRR gas-electric for $1.  I believe the "guts" still worked, as it was owned by a trolley museum that was using it for power until they got a real utility drop.

Oh, the fantasies we had!

Of course, we had to remove it from the property at our own expense.

 

Ed

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Posted by SouthPenn on Monday, March 20, 2017 2:03 PM

Looks like someone knows they are there. The bearing caps are wrapped in plastic.

South Penn
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Posted by NWP SWP on Monday, March 20, 2017 2:05 PM

Of course one would get the ownership of the equipment FIRST!!!

Modeling the combined lines of the Southern Pacific, Western Pacific, and Northern Pacific after a fictional Depression Era merger forming the SouthWestern Pacific and NorthWestern Pacific Railroads. SP, WP, and NP operations remain independent but also operate alongside NWP and SWP equipment.

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Posted by NWP SWP on Monday, March 20, 2017 2:10 PM

How much would you think the owner would sell it for? Thats the T-Motor. But also the caboose.

Modeling the combined lines of the Southern Pacific, Western Pacific, and Northern Pacific after a fictional Depression Era merger forming the SouthWestern Pacific and NorthWestern Pacific Railroads. SP, WP, and NP operations remain independent but also operate alongside NWP and SWP equipment.

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Posted by mlehman on Monday, March 20, 2017 2:14 PM

I think Carl has a pretty good guess, as I was going to say $10k or so for a short local move with the caboose, assuming there's no bridges or other obstructions that force a longer route.

For that big electric, $1 million is probably ballpark, but could be more. The main issue are what I assume it has under it, old school "friction" bearings. They are no longer allowed in interchange and would need -- count the axles -- replacement with roller bearings...$$$$$$...to move on it's own wheels...and that's just for starts. Shipment as a load would require breaking it down onto separate flats, maybe even depressed center flats, cranes at either end...local drayage...it's going to be real expensive...Surprise

 

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Posted by NWP SWP on Monday, March 20, 2017 2:16 PM

Ok what about via truck? And how much would it be to just purchase the equipment?

Modeling the combined lines of the Southern Pacific, Western Pacific, and Northern Pacific after a fictional Depression Era merger forming the SouthWestern Pacific and NorthWestern Pacific Railroads. SP, WP, and NP operations remain independent but also operate alongside NWP and SWP equipment.

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Posted by mlehman on Monday, March 20, 2017 2:30 PM

The caboose is light enough to flatbed, but that big electric...I very much doubt it would be street legal without being in bits and pieces.

As for cost? The caboose could be anywhere from the proverbial $1 to $10k or more. When cabooses were coming off freight trains, you could find them for $1,000 and up pretty easily. Not so much anymore unless one finds someone that needs a caboose removed...

The big electric likely has historical value which makes it worth far more than the scarp value. Sort of one of those "they'll name the price and if you flinch, it's likely your wallet isn't fat enough." Often in such cases, a historical society or museum already has an interest in it, but haven't raised the bucks to move it to a place that can protect and restore it.

Mike Lehman

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Posted by 7j43k on Monday, March 20, 2017 2:33 PM

Frank (z-stripe) is a trucker.  I recommend you contact him, if he doesn't show up here.  That's what I'd do for a quick guess on road transport.  Distance is important, so have that info ready.

I think buying the equipment without a rock solid plan on moving it would be a mistake.  Which the current owner may not even allow.

Suppose you give the owner of the electric $50,000 to buy it.  Now YOU own it.  On HIS land.  So he can charge you rent/storage.  OR.  He can give you a 30 day notice to remove it.  At any time.  He MAY let you keep it sitting there for 5 years for free.  After all, he has his money.  When it becomes an irritant--30 days.  Unless the owner is, uh, mentally absent, he will only sign a contract that doesn't damage him.  Which I would also recommend you do.

As far as "how much for the big pile of rust?", it could be anything.  If the owner has been yearning to get rid of it but can't afford to move it, you coming along with maybe even $10,000 and a contract to remove will make him THRILLED.  On the other hand, he may not have given up plans to fully restore it and run it back and forth for fun.  THEN he may not have a price at all.  There's a story that a cereal company offered Irv Athearn MANY dollars for his company.  He refused it, saying his life was good just the way it was.  That's the story, anyway.

 

 

Ed

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Posted by NWP SWP on Monday, March 20, 2017 2:41 PM

Ok so the caboose would need a big rig to move not just a big pickup with a gooseneck, right? And far as the electric I believe its owned by Beacon Harbor LLC at least the land its on is so a big company would probably want to get rid of a rusting heap (to them its that not me) as easily as possible, correct?

Modeling the combined lines of the Southern Pacific, Western Pacific, and Northern Pacific after a fictional Depression Era merger forming the SouthWestern Pacific and NorthWestern Pacific Railroads. SP, WP, and NP operations remain independent but also operate alongside NWP and SWP equipment.

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Posted by mbinsewi on Monday, March 20, 2017 3:04 PM

Ed answered your question, in his last post.  Why don't you just call them and see?

Mike.

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Posted by rrinker on Monday, March 20, 2017 3:12 PM

 Perhaps - but someone is taking care of it by covering the journal covers with plastic to keep water out and rusting the axles in place. SO someone wants it in as best a condition as they can keep it, for now.

Even if they did sell it to you, transport costs would far exceed whatever you paid for the loco. It's too big to transport in one piece, so there would eb work removing the trucks and probably dropping all the wheels - this is a couple of oversize loads already. Then the main body. Long distance trucking or train haul of an oversize load is NOT cheap, EVERY jurisdiction it passes through needs clearance checks and permits. Then the crews, with fuel costs, heavy equipment (cranes) to get it loaded, and the required escorts ahead and behind the trucks. I don't know if they published their costs, but an idea could be gotten from how much it cost the Fire Up 2100 organization to move Reading 2100 from Washington State to Ohio. And that loco HAS roller bearings and could be pulled in a regular train, however they did have to put it on a flat car because one of the main rods looked bent and ANY defects are enough for a Class 1 to say "no way".

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Posted by NWP SWP on Monday, March 20, 2017 3:18 PM

I see, in all of your expert opinions how much would it cost to bring it to code so it could be moved dead in train? And far as the covered journal boxes that could've been done by a train enthusiast.  

Modeling the combined lines of the Southern Pacific, Western Pacific, and Northern Pacific after a fictional Depression Era merger forming the SouthWestern Pacific and NorthWestern Pacific Railroads. SP, WP, and NP operations remain independent but also operate alongside NWP and SWP equipment.

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Posted by NWP SWP on Monday, March 20, 2017 3:44 PM

The toughest part would be the last 5 to 10 miles from the nearest railline to my house but thats trough the country so that would require truck(s) transport.

Modeling the combined lines of the Southern Pacific, Western Pacific, and Northern Pacific after a fictional Depression Era merger forming the SouthWestern Pacific and NorthWestern Pacific Railroads. SP, WP, and NP operations remain independent but also operate alongside NWP and SWP equipment.

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Posted by 7j43k on Monday, March 20, 2017 4:04 PM

cascadenorthernrr

I see, in all of your expert opinions how much would it cost to bring it to code so it could be moved dead in train?

 

I think you will get more accurate answers over on one of the Trains forums.  I know that when I had some technical questions, a person kindly answered them and taught me more than I ever knew there was to learn.

There have been similar moves before.  I'm thinking of maybe a big E8, or something like that.  You might track down someone who did one and see what they went through.  I just did a search for "diesel locomotive restoration" and found some interesting sites.

 

Ed

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Posted by NittanyLion on Monday, March 20, 2017 4:11 PM

Acquiring, repairing enough for dead in tow, and moving that motor would be a multimillion dollar project. 

For one, it is completely isolated. The spur it is on isn't connected to anything. For second, the NRHS chapter that owns it doesn't seem to exist anymore, so lawyering is required to even figure out who you're tendering an offer to. Third, there's not even a road to it. Fourth, the safety appliances are going to run into the hundreds of thousands. Fifth, it hasn't turned a wheel in 30 years, so you've got a lot of work to do with all those wheels. 

You'd have an easier time building a sheet metal clone. 

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Posted by mbinsewi on Monday, March 20, 2017 4:12 PM

And I just did a search for "moving a locomotive", and also found some interesting stuff.

Look for a heavy rigging and hauling co. either in your area, or where the loco is at, to find out what it would take.

Museums have done this.  Read some interesting stuff on a move in Chicago.

Tell dad he'll have to get out the check book!

Mike.

 

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Posted by RobertSchuknecht on Monday, March 20, 2017 4:13 PM

In the mid 1990's a friend of mine looked into purchasing a caboose and having it shipped by rail. The railroad wanted $7 per mile to ship it. What is the distance by rail between where the equipment currently sits and your property?

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Posted by NWP SWP on Monday, March 20, 2017 4:20 PM

But the point would be owning the only surviving T-Motor (I got that from Wiki so I could be wrong) I will contact a heavy haul company to get an idea. And far as funding I could start a crowdfunding campaign to pay for it because after all it is quite a noble cause to preserve a nearly one hundred year old piece of railroading history.

Modeling the combined lines of the Southern Pacific, Western Pacific, and Northern Pacific after a fictional Depression Era merger forming the SouthWestern Pacific and NorthWestern Pacific Railroads. SP, WP, and NP operations remain independent but also operate alongside NWP and SWP equipment.

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Posted by tstage on Monday, March 20, 2017 4:22 PM

Kalmbach has done the work for you.  Check out their "Moving a Prototype Locomotive From the Middle of Nowhere to the Middle of Nowhere" by R.U. Gullabell.  Very inciteful resource...

http://www.newyorkcentralmodeling.com

Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.

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Posted by NWP SWP on Monday, March 20, 2017 4:30 PM

I see, hardy har har.

Modeling the combined lines of the Southern Pacific, Western Pacific, and Northern Pacific after a fictional Depression Era merger forming the SouthWestern Pacific and NorthWestern Pacific Railroads. SP, WP, and NP operations remain independent but also operate alongside NWP and SWP equipment.

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Posted by chutton01 on Monday, March 20, 2017 5:04 PM

Moving the Glenmont locomotives has been hashed and rehashed in this railroad.net thread - Private Equipment collection at Colonie and Glenmont. The consensus is that its not really feasible without outragous amounts of money.

Also, according to Google Earth view that crossing (Rt 964?) you posted seems to have been paved over - have they done other work on the line?

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Posted by BMMECNYC on Monday, March 20, 2017 5:06 PM

According to what I read on the Ogauge Railroading forum, the S motor and T motor have been acquired by the Danbury Railroad Museum of Danbury, CT as of some time in 2015.  They are looking into the costs of moving them onto the railroads property. 

I have no idea as to the accuracy of this statement.  Their website has not been updated with any info about the locomotives.

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Posted by NWP SWP on Monday, March 20, 2017 5:11 PM

One yes that sat view is outdated they have since reinstalled the crossing signals and replaced the grade crossing itself (I'm not 100% sure they have replaced it but if not they are preparing to) and replaced many ties along the line to the point where they have begun using a small three track yard to store tank cars and covered hoppers. Two I actually have an aunt in Danbury.

Modeling the combined lines of the Southern Pacific, Western Pacific, and Northern Pacific after a fictional Depression Era merger forming the SouthWestern Pacific and NorthWestern Pacific Railroads. SP, WP, and NP operations remain independent but also operate alongside NWP and SWP equipment.

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Posted by BMMECNYC on Monday, March 20, 2017 5:14 PM

cascadenorthernrr
Two I actually have an aunt in Danbury.

Next time you visit her, go to the museum? 

The S Motor parked behind the T motor would be easier to move. 

Rule 108: In case of doubt or uncertainty, the safe course must be taken.
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Posted by NWP SWP on Monday, March 20, 2017 5:25 PM

And that's because it's smaller. The reason I like the T-motor is because it's: A; closest thing to a P-Motor (my favorite NYC loco) in existance to my knowledge, B; I am originally from NY, C; I think it would be a fun project to convert it into a livable space like the GN loco at the Izaac Walton Inn.

Modeling the combined lines of the Southern Pacific, Western Pacific, and Northern Pacific after a fictional Depression Era merger forming the SouthWestern Pacific and NorthWestern Pacific Railroads. SP, WP, and NP operations remain independent but also operate alongside NWP and SWP equipment.

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Posted by NWP SWP on Monday, March 20, 2017 5:27 PM

But I wouldn't just scrap the innards of the loco I would reuse them somehow.

Modeling the combined lines of the Southern Pacific, Western Pacific, and Northern Pacific after a fictional Depression Era merger forming the SouthWestern Pacific and NorthWestern Pacific Railroads. SP, WP, and NP operations remain independent but also operate alongside NWP and SWP equipment.

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Posted by BMMECNYC on Monday, March 20, 2017 5:29 PM

Also getting a crane in there will be difficult, as the locomotives are located just north of some of the transmission lines leaving the power plant.  Track would likely have to be re-layed to re-connect with the rail spur that used to serve the power plant.  The locomotives would then have to be rolled out to a location where cranes capable of lifting the locomotives could pick them up.  The S motor weights 228,000lbs.  The T motor weighs 285,000lbs.  Not a trivial lift to transport in 1 piece.  Transporting in several pieces is problematic, depending on the level of overall deterioration.  6000 is quite a historic piece. 

I did not know they existed, thank you for calling my attention to this. 

My suggestion: find out who actually owns them (what museum, historical society, etc), and what plans they have for them (ie restoration, movement etc). 

Offer to donate money to that restoration/movement project. 

Rule 108: In case of doubt or uncertainty, the safe course must be taken.
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Posted by NWP SWP on Monday, March 20, 2017 5:30 PM

By the by, my family is planning to go to NYC to see Billy Joel live at MSG so we would probably go to see my aunt and go to see the loco in person.

Modeling the combined lines of the Southern Pacific, Western Pacific, and Northern Pacific after a fictional Depression Era merger forming the SouthWestern Pacific and NorthWestern Pacific Railroads. SP, WP, and NP operations remain independent but also operate alongside NWP and SWP equipment.

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