The trackside experience is revelatory. The few minutes it takes to sit by a crossing, hear the signal bells and horn, feel the world-coming-to-an-end rumble, man. It's fun to watch their eyes go wide.
Stu
Streamlined steam, oh, what a dream!!
Shock Control Part of what drew me to model trains as a kid was the sight of a real train. There was so much more variety then, in terms of the types of cars, the shapes, the colors, the names of the many railroads, their slogans in large brush script across the box cars, the bulldog F-unit locomotives, and the caboose at the end of the train. When I see a freight train now - on the rare occasion that one actually lumbers by - I see a locomotive pulling a string of colorless, blank shipping containers, all of identical size and shape. It makes me wonder if kids are actually inspired by trains anymore, and if they are, if it is primarily through an existing layout in their grandparents' basement as opposed to the real objects. Thoughts?
Part of what drew me to model trains as a kid was the sight of a real train. There was so much more variety then, in terms of the types of cars, the shapes, the colors, the names of the many railroads, their slogans in large brush script across the box cars, the bulldog F-unit locomotives, and the caboose at the end of the train.
When I see a freight train now - on the rare occasion that one actually lumbers by - I see a locomotive pulling a string of colorless, blank shipping containers, all of identical size and shape.
It makes me wonder if kids are actually inspired by trains anymore, and if they are, if it is primarily through an existing layout in their grandparents' basement as opposed to the real objects.
Thoughts?
Rich
Alton Junction
Shock ControlIt makes me wonder if kids are actually inspired by trains anymore, and if they are, if it is primarily through an existing layout in their grandparents' basement as opposed to the real objects.
First allow me ask you do you railfan or just see a occasional intermodal train? Spend some time on you tube watching railroad videos or better still go railfaning and see the big picture.
If you lived in this area you would find freight trains is as exciting as ever since you see boxcars,flats,bulkheads,gons,covered hoppers, tank cars just like the old days. Unlike the old days you never know what motive power will show up in the locomotive consist.
The younger modelers have a better grip on today's railroads then most believe and in all truth far more knowledgeable..
BTW.The same was said when I was a teen in the 60s.. Does today's boring look alike diesel locomotives interest kids like steam locomotives?
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE Shock Control It makes me wonder if kids are actually inspired by trains anymore, and if they are, if it is primarily through an existing layout in their grandparents' basement as opposed to the real objects. First allow me ask you do you railfan or just see a occasional intermodal train? Spend some time on you tube watching railroad videos or better still go railfaning and see the big picture. If you lived in this area you would find freight trains is as exciting as ever since you see boxcars,flats,bulkheads,gons,covered hoppers, tank cars just like the old days. Unlike the old days you never know what motive power will show up in the locomotive consist. The younger modelers have a better grip on today's railroads then most believe and in all truth far more knowledgeable.. BTW.The same was said when I was a teen in the 60s.. Does today's boring look alike diesel locomotives interest kids like steam locomotives?
Shock Control It makes me wonder if kids are actually inspired by trains anymore, and if they are, if it is primarily through an existing layout in their grandparents' basement as opposed to the real objects.
I don't have time to be a railfan. Perhaps it is simply the geographical regions where I've lived in recent decades, but I can promise you, all I see is engines and shipping containers. And while my love for trains may be clouded by elements of nostalgia, the amount of variety on a train is an empirical fact and not an opinion. A string of identical shipping containers with no discernable markings on them inherently has less variety than a train with box cars, tankers, flat cars with various loads, hoppers, gondolas, reefers, etc. It is good to know that there is more variety on the freight trains where you live.
I am not a railfan, but have watched trains for a lot of years!
What I see now I don't like, endless strings of look alike tank cars, gray covered hoppers that all look alike with tons of graffiti, rusty boxcars that are ready for the scrap heap, and intermodal cars with look alike containers.
Even when the railroads were going bankrupt in the 70's there were various colors on the boxcars that were well kept up compared to today, as well as more railroad companies. Same with Covered Hoppers etc. The railroads took pride in the look of their equipment, now it is the almighty dollar that counts and not the image.
Rick Jesionowski
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
50 years ago, you might have seen a greater variety in cars than today, but less variety in locomotives. For example, in the last couple of years I've seen quite a few unit tank trains. 50 black tank cars with minimal lettering isn't that exciting. However, years ago, you would only see the engines of that railroad pulling trains. Now, due to run through agreements, I get to see tank trains with Norfolk Southern (including many of the retro paint schemes like NYC, Reading, etc.) and Kansas City Southern, even FCM (I think that's what it's called now, used to be Nacional de Mexico?)...despite the fact that those railroads nearest connection is hundreds of miles away from where I'm at.
I like looking at intermodal trains. Each container is like looking at one individual freight car.
Are you sure it wasn't trash train. A long flat car with 4 small containers. Colors may very by company.
Amtrak America, 1971-Present.
wjstix 50 years ago, you might have seen a greater variety in cars than today, but less variety in locomotives. For example, in the last couple of years I've seen quite a few unit tank trains. 50 black tank cars with minimal lettering isn't that exciting. However, years ago, you would only see the engines of that railroad pulling trains. Now, due to run through agreements, I get to see tank trains with Norfolk Southern (including many of the retro paint schemes like NYC, Reading, etc.) and Kansas City Southern, even FCM (I think that's what it's called now, used to be Nacional de Mexico?)...despite the fact that those railroads nearest connection is hundreds of miles away from where I'm at.
I saw plenty of different engines right in my back yard, NKP, Wabash, C&O, D&TSL, B&O, PC, N&W, TT and WM. This is all in one week, every week, not just once in awhile. If I went a little further you could add EL and DT&I along with visiting engines of the SP, Southern and others.
Now most of what I see is NS and filthy CSX engines, with an occaisonal UP and BNSF.
I like variety, and I agree there's not a lot of variety to be seen in modern freight trains. I have modern railfan friends who find a lot of interest there. They know more about the modern engines, cars, and operations than I do. I can't fault them for finding their satisfaction in areas that don't excite me.
I prefer the transition era in Ohio because there are many reasons for variety:
1. Lots of different railroads as well as private owners are represented in the interchange car fleet. This means a big variety in liveries.
2. The change from composite to all-steel cars was still not complete, and there were more carbuilders represented, including railroad shops. There were a lot of approaches to problem solving, and there was no "typical" freight car.
3. Trucking was having an impact on the railroad industry, but it had not taken over to the extent it has today. Railroads still offered LCL and served small industries that are mostly truck-served today.
4. There were more work trains and more interesting flanged-wheel work equipment. Hulcher doesn't excite me.
5. Diesel motive power was more interesting. There were diesels from 5 major builders: EMD, Alco, Baldwin, F-M, Lima Hamilton, plus industrial engines from GE, Plymouth, and others. They ranged from switchers through A and B cab units, B-B hood units, to C-C hoods.
6. Steam motive power was still in operation, which meant lots of variety in designs and functions, even within the roster of a single railroad.
7. My chosen geographical area, Ohio, boasted a concentration of railroads that compares pretty favorably with most other areas. East-West mainlines of the NYC, NKP, B&O, PRR, Erie, N&W, and C&O ran through. Important regionals such as B&LE, DT&I, and AC&Y were prosperous contributors to the mix. There was a lot of interchange work.
8. I know this conversation relates to freight operations, but I must add the difference in passenger operations. I consider the transition era to be more interesting in that respect. I say this as an Amtrak retiree who always had to keep his job duties separate from his hobby interests. Passenger diesels came in a variety that nearly matched the freight diesels, from the same builders, and the colors and variety of passenger cars and operations can't be beat.
But that's just my opinion. Proponents of the modern scene may wax eloquent on their favorites, and that is their right.
Tom
Until recently, I lived near active Norfolk Southern tracks. I have to agree with those in the boring camp. Many of the trains were nothing but coal hoppers headed to power plants.
The only thing that changed was the graffiti, something I absolutely detest. Even the other freights provided little in the way iof nteresting variety, other than the ever present graffiti.
CG
For those that model the 50/60s you need to dirty your layout..Railroads was filthy,ran down and in overall deplorable condition.Passenger train was filthy,late and apt to have a break down enroute. There was few exception but,the heyday was over and Government bailouts was the norm.
As a youthful and naive modeler I got a shocking surprise once I became a student brakeman I learn the cold facts breakdowns,bad track, poor equipment was the norm---just like my railroading family said.
I don't know about rusty boxcars because I haven't seen any and I railfan daily even if its from my man cave window that faces the NS Sandusky mainline. My man cave is the former master bedroom that is now filled with my video gaming table with 32" LED TV,switching layout,work desk and computer desk. I spent most of the morning reading MR,Trains Magazine,Railfan and watching NS trains.
angelob6660 I like looking at intermodal trains. Each container is like looking at one individual freight car. Are you sure it wasn't trash train. A long flat car with 4 small containers. Colors may very by company.
Last year I "camped out" next to BNSF tracks on the Columbia River for a few days. I photographed every car in every train I saw.
I assure you, neither the cars nor the containers were all the same. And each train was different than the others. For a start, there were the "JBHunt" trains, which had a whole lot of, yup, JB Hunt containers (in at least three versions). And fewer of the three different kinds of orange Schneider. And those were just the biggies. There were also a small assortment of reefers. And the occasional 20' tank container. And then there were the trailers. LOTS of different trailers. The cars tended to be 3 unit 53' well cars plus 53' and 57' spine sets. But there were other cars, too. An assortment of 53' singles, plus, as I recall, a 5 unit 40' well car (with 53' boxes on the top of the first, third, and fifth well).
And then there's the "international" container trains. Those are carrying 20', 40', and 45' boxes. Typically on 5 unit 40' well cars. But, again, not always. The 53' wells show up. And there's even an occasional 56'. And the paint schemes on those containers varies with each train. There'll be an "Evergreen" train, or a "Hyundai/Hanjin" train, for example. And those trains also carry a vast mix of other leased and other lines' boxes.
The container trains of today remind me a lot of the "typical" freight train of the forties: a lot of boxcars, mostly 40', from various lines. Many of the schemes repeat. Many don't. There's an occasional tank car (see 20' tank container mentioned above), or a reefer (also, see above). Haven't seen any 40' stock containers. Yet. Also, there are flat and bulkhead containers, but I don't recall seeing any last year.
I sorta agree about the coal trains. Except that when I examine my photos of those I shot at that one location, there are at least 5 different kinds of cars and there are at least 5 different BN/BNSF paint schemes and a whole slew of leased cars.
Oh, yeah. There was a garbage train every day. I admit I DID NOT photograph every car in every one of those trains. They are likely the most repetive trains, plus I just will not ever model a garbage train. Ever.
There WERE a few "old style" trains with mixed cars. Pretty darn interesting, I do say.
Ed
BRAKIE For those that model the 50/60s you need to dirty your layout..Railroads was filthy,ran down and in overall deplorable condition.Passenger train was filthy,late and apt to have a break down enroute. There was few exception but,the heyday was over and Government bailouts was the norm.
When I rode my second cross-country passenger train in 1964 (first was 1950 on the Super Chief), it was from Washington through Chicago, Portland to Berkeley CA. On the run to Chicago (on the B&O), it certainly looked like what Brakie describes.
But I also recall crossing on the GN line, where every station I saw looked freshly painted and weed free. Many had flowers in window boxes (September).
The GN certainly would have been one of those exceptions.
A year ago I stayed the night at an Amtrak station in downtown Austin, TX and slept out there all night. 2 homeless people were sleeping there also. I was planning to catch the morning train to back east. The tracks were 50 to 75 feet away. Every hour a BNSF freight train went by with all kinds of cars with it. The noises that came with the trains were more intriguing than the cars themselves. Wish I had a recorder with me. The wheels squeeling, the reefers reefing, the engines, and other strange noises. The Amtrak cars are not clean either inside or out. I take an Amtrak at least once a year to visit Sister.
I have to agree that watching a train now isn't as exciting as it was in the 1950s and '60s. The lack of railroad names, colors, car types and all just isn't as inspiring. I remember the steam to diesel transition and I always thought the diesels were pretty exciting too.
I lived for 35 years in Scum City (Houston) and when I first got there in 1978 a couple RRs were semi friendly but a few were downright hostile. It only got worse to the point where watching and taking pictures on public streets generally brought a rude, fat, hostile RR Cop waving a pistol in your face. Thank God HPD seemed to understand and could control these jerks. After several of those experiences and the lack of neat RRs sucked up by the Horrible Yellow Horde it just wasn't worth going out any longer. I fully understand theft, trespassing, etc but viewing from a public acess point should never have brought those actions from a RRcop.
My grandsons are of the Thomas age and love seeing model trains, train shows and even the new locomotives but I watch them lose interest as the long stacks of containers start passing by. They just aren't as exciting.
Some people like all the vulgar graffitti on the cars and locomotives but I don't see that as "art" and see it as a very negative thing and I don't waste my time looking at it.
Watching the A&M in my new area is another thing all together. While UP stack trains seem to bore them, they get very excited with the A&M and the noisy Alcos and passenger trains.
Things change and that's why we all live in the past through our model trains and slide collections.
My 2¢,
Roger Huber
oldline1 I lived for 35 years in Scum City (Houston) and when I first got there in 1978 a couple RRs were semi friendly but a few were downright hostile.
I lived for 35 years in Scum City (Houston) and when I first got there in 1978 a couple RRs were semi friendly but a few were downright hostile.
Did one of the latter start with an "S"? And end with a "P"?
I live near the CSX. Lots of trains, but little variety. Most are solid trains of containers. Next in number would be coal, auto racks, covered hoppers. Only occasionaly will a classic freight come by with a mix of cars. Most locomotives are blue and yellow CSX. Once in a great while there will be a UP or BNSF in the mix.
When we get over to South Carolina on the NS, there seems to be more variety in the individual trains. So it may be a regional thing.
jim
Ed,
Yep, the very hostile ones were indeed that one and the one that started with an "M" and ended with a "T" and had a "K" in the middle somewhere.
The Mop, AT&SF and HB&T were fairly friendly to folks with cameas as long as you didn't act stupid.
It does sort of depend on the area you're in. Up here in Palmer, MA, I see stack trains, mixed freight, auto racks, and tank trains all equally. But other places may see almost all coal, or stack, or other. There are usually 1 or 2 gems hidden in a mixed freight, such as ex-Milwaukee cars for salt, or an array of patched lease boxcars.
In al fairness, Im sure there are those in the 40s and 50s who didn't find long trains of brown 40' boxcars exciting either.
Modeling whatever I can make out of that stash of kits that takes up half my apartment's spare bedroom.
Bundy74 In al fairness, Im sure there are those in the 40s and 50s who didn't find long trains of brown 40' boxcars exciting either.
Lemme see. A continuous parade of brown square things with slightly different lettering on some but not all? Led by an always black thing?
Nah!!!!!
Who is actually pretty fond of such things.
Bundy74In al fairness, Im sure there are those in the 40s and 50s who didn't find long trains of brown 40' boxcars exciting either.
I think growing up in that era started my love for boxcars and the icing on the cake was the colorful IPD short line boxcar era. Now I still see lots of boxcars and been noticing the freight leasing companies has started to branch out into the boxcar market so,now besides Railbox we are begining to see boxcars from other leasing companies.
BRAKIE Bundy74 In al fairness, Im sure there are those in the 40s and 50s who didn't find long trains of brown 40' boxcars exciting either. I think growing up in that era started my love for boxcars and the icing on the cake was the colorful IPD short line boxcar era. Now I still see lots of boxcars and been noticing the freight leasing companies has started to branch out into the boxcar market so,now besides Railbox we are begining to see boxcars from other leasing companies.
I would add to Larry's comments. While most boxcars of the classic era were some variant of red or brown, there were a few exceptions in green, black, and a very few more colorful ones. The great variety came in the ages and construction of cars, ranging from short to tall, short to long, and wood to composite to steel in many variations. The second source of interest was the many railroads that we now consider fallen flags, with their distinctive logos.
I would love to see a train.. Nearest ones are 80 miles away and then there are only a couple of acid tank trains a week, one or 2 bauxite trains and the daily passenger train... We used to have a daily wood chip train here but they closed the line about 7 years ago and now another dead line in this state...
More than half the railroads in this state are closed or even completely ripped up...
The ones that are left of the state government railway only see grain trains and a couple of short lines have acid/bauxite and the other line is iron ore...
The national line(standard guage) has iron ore and containers plus a weekly passenger train inter state and a daily rural train...
It becomes a lot of long distance driving if you want train spot..
So back to my model trains and freelancing(theres way more action on the layout and the yard is still the start and the end of the line)..
As some one said, "its the mighty dollar", that comes first...
This is one of the more interesting posts I have read in a while. There are many different and interesting opinions on then vs today. I grew up in MI and always thought a GTW GP-38 was boring. However when I went to the neighboring city on the Chessie, I never knew if I was going to see a B&O, C&O, or Chessie power. Today I miss all of them.
Today i live in OKC, and while I agree that some unit trains are boring they have aspects that are very interesting. Nothing worse than a BNSF covered hopper unit train, they don't even have graffiti on them! Those are so boring. However as someone mentioned the intermodal trains can get interesting with the different trailers. While all the power is big six axle, you never know what road name might come through on the front or end of a train. Once in a while you will see a manifest come through town and it is fun to see if paint is fading and the previous road name show through. I have seen a Great Northern box car and an EL gondola in the last few years.
I am also lucky enough to work near the end of a branch line that has an auto receiving customer. They have their own GP-7, it is black and I can't determine the original owner. So in the city I get to see a littlet bit of everything.
* I do miss the ATSF SD45-2 that used to come through as recent as 8 years ago.
For those that would like to see the older EMD switchers and Geeps railfan short lines and for the most part boxcars ladings are their bread and butter.
Its great to see a old GP9 pulling 6 or more boxcars..Some shorties still use a Alco end cab switcher as well..
As a kid growing up in southern Ontario, I railfanned (unaware of that term at the time) locally, pretty-well wherever I could walk or bike, or, from the back seat of Dad's car when we got "stuck" at a crossing. Watching the plethora of roadnames rolling by was like looking at a map of North America (my hometown of Hamilton, Ontario was probably the most industrialised city in Canada) with rail cars from all over the continent, and four railroads serving the city. It mattered not that the cars were pretty-much all the same colours - boxcar red or black - because the cars themselves were so varied, even among ones of the same type....single sheathed, double sheathed, steel...low cars and high, short and long, clean or dirty, and new or almost at the end of their service life. I saw the end of steam and the takeover by diesels, so yes, the trains of today can be boring by comparison.While I still do a little railfanning locally, a lot of the industry has left...mostly gone south or east, so train frequency isn't what it had been.The majority of my railfanning nowadays is done when visiting friends in Ohio and Pennsylvania, and while it's definitely not like the old days, it definitely is interesting. Both friends have railroading backgrounds, with knowledge of places the average fan wouldn't be aware, and access to many sites where railfans wouldn't necessarily be welcomed.I see lots of intermodal trains (containers and trailers), Roadrailers, autoracks, coal trains, mixed trains, tank trains, and diesels from all of the major North American railroads. I've seen trains on headways so short that the locos of the second train can be photographed in the same frame as the last cars of the one ahead of it. I've been in scenic locales where waiting for the train is an enjoyable diversion, and when the trains are few and far between, the conversations can be as interesting as if a steam engine were passing by our cameras.I've watched rail-grinding trains (both working and in-transit), seen high & wide special moves, business trains, and employee specials, and most of the NS Heritage units. I've ridden in modern high-horsepower diesel locomotives and in a 1943-built Alco, too.
I'm not yet approaching boredom.
Wayne
While we are discussing old 40' boxcars I would like to mention two of my all time favorites.
The West India Fruit & Steamship Company 40' boxcar with a car ferry logo with Florida to Havana Railroad Car Ferries on the side of the ship. From the little research I did these boxcars hauled Cuban cigars and rum. WFI also owned reefers for hauling fruit.
My second all time favorite 40' boxcar was GN's Jade Geen,black ends with Rocky(GN's goat) standing next to the slanted Great Northern.
I just realized nobody has mentioned an important difference between the trains of today and those of yore. Cabooses! Or vans, or waycars, or cabins, or what-have-you.
If a FRED is the period that ends a modern train's sentence, then a caboose was more of an exclamation point in years past. Even if you missed seeing the engine, you knew the owning road by the livery and distinctive architecture of the caboose, accompanied by the flagman's friendly wave.
That friendly wave is a reminder that railroads were, by and large, more welcoming to railfans in the past. I have a harder time warming up to people, or institutions, that are unfriendly to me.
Shock ControlIt makes me wonder if kids are actually inspired by trains anymore, and if they are, if it is primarily through an existing layout in their grandparents' basement as opposed to the real objects. Thoughts?
Since young folk today have no point of reference to compare modern trains to old trains of 25 or 50 years ago, then how or why would they feel board by what they see? Does that make sense? They would be seeing trains as you did when you were young, and either be drawn to them or not. Some kids are naturally drawn to trains and some, probably most, don't see them as anything special.
I might agree with you otherwise, but I have been watching trains since I was a kid in the 1960's but mostly began to take notice of them when I moved to California and lived along the SP lines in northern California.
As for today, to some degree, my feelings are like Liz Allen, "it's all crap now". Trains these days do not look like they did back in the 70's and 80's, they are all patched and often have graffiti and things have changed a lot. However, there is a certain amount of drama so even these days I still like to watch trains go by.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Growing up on long Island in the early 70's, all I saw were LIRR passenger trains. When i would venture out to Sunnyside Yard in Queens, NY, I would see more passenger trains and some freight trains sitting there. When traveling on family vacations, I would see both freight and passenger. Now, I see, as others do, mostly intermodal and tank trains, along with auto racks. In NJ, where I now live, I can watch on YouTube a live feed from CSX CP10 and see it many dedicated trains as well as mixed freight with lots of colorful (and dirty) freight cars of all types. On my model railroad layout, the box cars are from various railroads, very colorful, and I enjoy it as do others when we run trains.
Neal
When my best friend Bill and I would watch trains on the C&NW in the mid 1960s one of our favorite games was "this car could have been pulled by steam." There were still wood single sheathed box cars in use back then, and locally a tannery got its hides in them. The early built dates intrigued us. There were also still wood ice bunker reefers and now and then, a 2 bay "war emergency" hopper that had not had its wood sides replaced by steel. Most of those wood hoppers were CB&Q it seems to me. 8000 gallon riveted side tank cars were also still quite common.
Most freight cars seemed to be boxcars back then and when you'd see a long train, the differences in car height were amazing. And of course the 1960s also saw very large cars, auto parts boxcars, huge tank cars, and so on. The variety and the disparity between newest and oldest was astounding.
I still enjoy seeing any kind of train but I do think the 1960s saw the most interesting blend of modern era large capacity cars with cars dating back to the wood car/early steel era and everything in between.
Dave Nelson
Now I understand what I was feeling all these years when watching the real trains. I just couldn't pinpoint what it was, or put it into words. But basically most of you just did that. Thank-you. Although, I feel sad about it as it's the way of the future.
Oh, and someone mentioned graffiti on autoracks and hoppers. That's about the only cheerful thing I look forward seeing when a train passes by nowadays. To me, graffiti break up the monotony of colours (lack thereof) and shapes and bring a temporary disruption.
Lastly, I hate to say it, but watching the vehicles on the highway seems more interesting than watching trains on the railroad, if we consider the variety in appearance (I just drove back from the LHS and was stuck on the highway for an hour, go figure).
YouTube Channel
Website
TrainzLuvr Lastly, I hate to say it, but watching the vehicles on the highway seems more interesting than watching trains on the railroad, if we consider the variety in appearance (I just drove back from the LHS and was stuck on the highway for an hour, go figure).
Really? It appears we're awash with a whole lot of cars that look the same and are painted silver.
Why, when I was a lad, things were MUCH better:
Tailfins and swoopy's all over the place. Why the '59 Chevy could slice off an arm. And probably did. And then there were TWO-TONE cars! And real fake wood on things called station wagons. Giant glass windows. White wall tires.
You kids, today. You don't know what you missed.
Station wagons are still around. They just renamed them SUVs.
CentralGulf Station wagons are still around. They just renamed them SUVs. CG
"Crossovers" are station wagons in everything but name.
I can see busy tracks from my office window and I think people are dismissive of the variety of equipment and road names that are out there. Even a stack train could have eight or nine different types of rolling stock and dozens of container owners.
Cars all look the same these days and I suppose to some extent you could say the same about trains.
Joe Staten Island West
riogrande5761 Since young folk today have no point of reference to compare modern trains to old trains of 25 or 50 years ago, then how or why would they feel board [sic] by what they see? Does that make sense? They would be seeing trains as you did when you were young, and either be drawn to them or not. Some kids are naturally drawn to trains and some, probably most, don't see them as anything special.
Since young folk today have no point of reference to compare modern trains to old trains of 25 or 50 years ago, then how or why would they feel board [sic] by what they see? Does that make sense? They would be seeing trains as you did when you were young, and either be drawn to them or not. Some kids are naturally drawn to trains and some, probably most, don't see them as anything special.
I didn't see steam engines as a kid - they were before my time - but I knew what they were, from photos, films, and model trains. I could appreciate them intrinisically without experiencing them firsthand. It is possible that a kid could be interested by the variety seen in model trains moreso than in contemporary real-world freight trains, especially when they are nothing but strings of shipping containers (as they are in my region).
A lot of the "things are all the same" discussion really means people aren't familiar with the differences so don't see them or don't bother to learn the differences.
The transisition era was all 40 ft boxcars and twin hoppers until people started learning the difference between the various car types (a PRR X29 is not the same as a USRA steel boxcar).
People tell me the 1880-1910 era cars are "all the same", but there is a huge variety of cars. If you know what to look for and actually take the time to look for them.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Regarding boxcars, one thing that was interesting back in the day was seeing the various railroads' slogans sprawled across the cars - "The Route of Phoebe Snow," "Way of the Zephyrs," "The Peoria Gateway," "The Silver Meteor," etc. The slogans seemed to suggest a magical world waiting to be explored.
Shock Control Regarding boxcars, one thing that was interesting back in the day was seeing the various railroads' slogans sprawled across the cars - "The Route of Phoebe Snow," "Way of the Zephyrs," "The Peoria Gateway," "The Silver Meteor," etc. The slogans seemed to suggest a magical world waiting to be explored.
You mean how like Hamburg Sud (Germany), ZIM (Israel), MSC (Switzerland), CMA CGM (France), Hanjin (South Korea), COSCO (China), and Mitsui O.S.K. (Japan) on all those containers suggest a magical world waiting to be explored? All those boxes full of the produce of the world, brought right to our doors, from exotic lands.
NittanyLionYou mean how like Hamburg Sud (Germany), ZIM (Israel), MSC (Switzerland), CMA CGM (France), Hanjin (South Korea), COSCO (China), and Mitsui O.S.K. (Japan) on all those containers suggest a magical world waiting to be explored? All those boxes full of the produce of the world, brought right to our doors, from exotic lands.
There's no magic left, it's all pure, cold hearted, commerce now. Boxes full of produce heading for walmarts around the country.
NittanyLion You mean how like Hamburg Sud (Germany), ZIM (Israel), MSC (Switzerland), CMA CGM (France), Hanjin (South Korea), COSCO (China), and Mitsui O.S.K. (Japan) on all those containers suggest a magical world waiting to be explored? All those boxes full of the produce of the world, brought right to our doors, from exotic lands.
NittanyLion Shock Control Regarding boxcars, one thing that was interesting back in the day was seeing the various railroads' slogans sprawled across the cars - "The Route of Phoebe Snow," "Way of the Zephyrs," "The Peoria Gateway," "The Silver Meteor," etc. The slogans seemed to suggest a magical world waiting to be explored. You mean how like Hamburg Sud (Germany), ZIM (Israel), MSC (Switzerland), CMA CGM (France), Hanjin (South Korea), COSCO (China), and Mitsui O.S.K. (Japan) on all those containers suggest a magical world waiting to be explored? All those boxes full of the produce of the world, brought right to our doors, from exotic lands.
I don't see large text on shipping containers, at least not on the ones in the region where I live. I see blank containers. If the name is on the container someplace, it is not legible from reasonable distances. On the mid-century boxcars, the slogans generally took up a quarter or more of a side.
Right.
EVERGREEN spread all along the side of a green container is being shy and dainty?
Visually, the paint and lettering schemes on the sides of containers are exactly the same as boxcars fron the '50's and '60's.
Actually, I will agree. Sort of. As much as I see a pretty broad use of "big letters" across containers, I don't see ANY great graphics.
THAT is pathetic.
All hail McGinnis!!!!
I'm fortunate enough to live close to a CN line and a NS yard. The variety of locos and cars is great! Regional short lines in our area also make for varied consists. Check out the Facebook "Foamer Nation" page managed by one of our local modelers and see stills and video from all over the country, as well as our area.
Hi!
Can't disagree with the OP............ I've been a train nut since the late "40s" (that is 1940s) and spent my youth marveling at the CNW and IC trains in Chicago and southern Illinois. Those awe inspired experiences drove me into the hobby (Marx, then Lionel, then HO).
Most of the trains today (that I see) are consisted of the same type cars - auto carriers, or container flats, or covered hoppers, or tank cars. It is very unusual to see a mixed car freight train here.
I still marvel at the immensity and power and size of the trains, but they just don't inspire me at all.
As far as their effect upon youth......... well I would like to think they are impressed and in awe as I once was, but I suspect most are not..........
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Maybe it's because I don't see them too often, but the only time I'm bored/disappointed with a passing train is when it's really short.
To me the containers look better in a yard setting where you wil see all the differrent colors from my collection for example
Zim(burgandy) P&O (white and Blue some silver) CMA CSM (blue and white) Matson (White with big blue letters) Hanjin (Red) US Army (Olive) Evergreen (Green and White or White on Green).
Thats why I have an intermodal yard The SIW has no room for long trains but then neither does Staten Island :) So having a yard full of containers and one string of Kato well cars works for me.
I've always thought that the Santa Fe 40' boxcars with the system maps were cool. I learned my geography as a kid from watching those cars! I also loved the way railroards used their boxcars to advertise their named trains. The Chief, The Super Chief, The El Capitan, The Grand Canyon, etc. Each one as exciting as the next.
"Shovel all the coal in, gotta keep 'em rolling" John.
I agree there is a lot of variety in the names on those modern containers, but I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. A name like P&O, or Maersk, Hanjin, or Matson, or even Evergreen, may evoke something in somebody's imagination, but not mine. In the old days, those names were accompanied by slogans: "Everywhere West"; "Linking Thirteen Great States With The Nation"; "The Southern Serves The South"; "The Route of Phoebe Snow". I agree with Ed (7j43k): Logos were more distinctive, perhaps best examplified by New Haven's intertwined script. My imagination is not jolted and captured by those modern paint schemes, irrespective of the equipment they are painted on.
Another factor that the OP may be getting at is that modern trains tend to be unit trains. All one commodity or rolling stock. Looking at 150 well cars with domestic containers all labled "JB Hunt" for example or 150 tank cars etc can get tedious.
I still call mine a station wagon even if FORD does not:
And it is interesting that its major dimensions match this very close:
Yes, without question, "boring" is in the mind of the individual........
I don't like modern trains or most modern cars......But the FLEX, well that is the best car I have owned since I owned one of those Checkers......
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
VERY nice, Sheldon! You sure don't see too many of those these days. I bet the back seat of a Checker has more room than the entire interior of most modern economy cars.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
7j43k Right. EVERGREEN spread all along the side of a green container is being shy and dainty? Visually, the paint and lettering schemes on the sides of containers are exactly the same as boxcars fron the '50's and '60's. Actually, I will agree. Sort of. As much as I see a pretty broad use of "big letters" across containers, I don't see ANY great graphics. THAT is pathetic. All hail McGinnis!!!! Ed
I think they accept the realities of their environs that the containers live in. They have short, brutal lives getting banged around and exposed to salt air. Why waste paint?I watched an intermodal train go by my office today and learned (from the side of a bright blue CMA CGM container) that some containers use bamboo flooring these days.
And Dong Fang's little dolphins amuse me. I miss Mitsui OSK's alligator. Haven't see one of those in a long time.
tstage ATLANTIC CENTRAL VERY nice, Sheldon! You sure don't see too many of those these days. I bet the back seat of a Checker has more room than the entire interior of most modern economy cars. Tom
Tom,
I learned to drive on a 1969 Checker wagon almost identical to the one in the photo, same colors and all. My father special ordered it brand new. Then I later owned three others, two sedans and a wagon.
All Checkers have a flat back seat floor, no drive shaft tunnel. The sedans have 57" of leg room, about 30" of flat open floor, the rear seat is basicly behind the doors. The wagons have less for the folding seat, but still have plenty of room.
That 1969 wagon I learned to drive on lasted 14 years, 270,000 miles, when my sister crashed it........others had similar life spans in terms of mileage....in a day when most cars only lasted 100,000 miles.
I saw American Graffiti seven times at the drive-in in that red Checker wagon.......
The FLEX is the first modern car to have the comfort, utility and space that can compete with the Checker design, combined with modern features - 360 HP twin turbo V6, all wheel drive, etc. The Checker actually got slightly better gas mileage than the FLEX does. Some of the Checkers had V8's, they got about 20 mpg on the highway. Some had inline 6 cylinders, the wagon I had with a six got 28 mpg highway......from a full sized car.
The red FLEX in the photo is actually gone now, the wife was in a crash and totaled it in Oct 2015, but it has been replaced with an all white 2015 FLEX LIMITED with all the same features. The car saved the lives of my wife and grandchildren, no question, only the most minor injuries.
Yes, we love our big boxy "station wagon", and with 360 HP from twin turbos, it runs away from a lot of "sporty" cars.....
ATLANTIC CENTRAL All Checkers have a flat back seat floor, no drive shaft tunnel. The sedans have 57" of leg room, about 30" of flat open floor, the rear seat is basicly behind the doors. The wagons have less for the folding seat, but still have plenty of room. That 1969 wagon I learned to drive on lasted 14 years, 270,000 miles, when my sister crashed it........others had similar life spans in terms of mileage....in a day when most cars only lasted 100,000 miles.
Sheldon,
With a 35" inseam, 57" of leg room is music to my thighs.
I had heard that the Checkers had great life spans; making them quite adept for taxi service - with the bonus of their abundance of rear seating room for multiple fares. I've known only one other person to have owned a Checker. And I remember it being a very quiet car - both inside and out.
NittanyLion I think they accept the realities of their environs that the containers live in. They have short, brutal lives getting banged around and exposed to salt air. Why waste paint?I watched an intermodal train go by my office today and learned (from the side of a bright blue CMA CGM container) that some containers use bamboo flooring these days. And Dong Fang's little dolphins amuse me. I miss Mitsui OSK's alligator. Haven't see one of those in a long time.
Myself, I'm especially fond of Evergreen: Big old billboard lettering. AND. They haven't changed the lettering scheme in about forever. Very convenient, era-wise.
As opposed to Hanjin and Hyundai, that each have at least two lettering variations to consider.
I'm also fond of this one:
http://www.athearn.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=ATH27847
It's Saudi. Not something ya see too often over here.
If you have to repeatedly put a child into a car seat and get them out again, you'll notice there is much more to the difference between a station wagon and an SUV than just the name!
riogrande5761 CentralGulf Station wagons are still around. They just renamed them SUVs. CG If you have to repeatedly put a child into a car seat and get them out again, you'll notice there is much more to the difference between a station wagon and an SUV than just the name!
Respectfully, that depends a lot on the "station wagon". The long, low, miserable cars of the 60's and 70's, yes. The low, small, cramped cars of today maybe so, but few of even the "crossovers" truely qualify as a "station wagon" in my view.
We care for two grandchildren at our house, and we have owned our share of SUV's, namely FORD EXPLORERS, and we are now 60 years old, plus or minus.
As a daily passenger/pleasure vehicle I don't want a vehicle that I have to "climb up into", nor do I want a vehicle I have to "fall down into" and then "climb out of". The FLEX requires niether, just like a Checker or a 55 Chevy, the seats are at the correct height for easy entry and exit. A fact not lost on my wife who has Rheumitoid Arthritis.
Originally, SUV's were just station wagons built on a pickup truck chassis. They have evolved, but winter weather/light off road ground clearance still requires them to be high enough to require "climbing up".
For work and winter weather I have this:
Most cars have not been designed for real utility in more than 50 years now. In most cases, it is all about "style", or fuel economy, or ego gratification, or as much of all three as they an squeeze in.
The FLEX defies the 50 year trend and captures much of the utility of the CHECKER, or the INTERNATIONAL TRAVELALL - form follows function.....so far, like the CHECKER, the FLEX body design has not materially changed in the 9 years it has been on the market. While CHECKER made improvements, the core design was the same from 1956 until the end of production in 1983.
It's real easy to get the grand kids in and out of their car seats in our FLEX station wagon.......we didn't have car seats like today when I raised my kids driving a CHECKER.
Yes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. To me the Checker is a great looking car, so is the FLEX. Corvettes, not so much. Judging on looks alone, my all time favorite is the 58 Impala. Most all new cars are boring, just like modern freight trains. And I really hate the non discript washed out metalic paint colors on cars in the last 30-40 years........
BRAKIE For those that model the 50/60s you need to dirty your layout..Railroads was filthy,ran down and in overall deplorable condition.Passenger train was filthy,late and apt to have a break down enroute. There was few exception but,the heyday was over and Government bailouts was the norm. As a youthful and naive modeler I got a shocking surprise once I became a student brakeman I learn the cold facts breakdowns,bad track, poor equipment was the norm---just like my railroading family said. I don't know about rusty boxcars because I haven't seen any and I railfan daily even if its from my man cave window that faces the NS Sandusky mainline. My man cave is the former master bedroom that is now filled with my video gaming table with 32" LED TV,switching layout,work desk and computer desk. I spent most of the morning reading MR,Trains Magazine,Railfan and watching NS trains.
Larry, I have studied a lot of pictures from the 50's, and I remember the 60's rather well.
I don't think the two eras can be lumped together so much.
From what I have seen, in the 50's, yes, trains were dirty, it is dirty business. And there was some degree of left over, worn out, over worked WWII rolling stock floating around. But there was masive reinvestment in rolling stock, larger better hopper cars, piggyback equipment, new bigger box cars, mechanical reefers being developed - and last ditch efforts at new, fast, shinny passenger trains. So, my studies say dirt?, yes. Decay?, not so much in the 50's.
The 60's and into the 70's, now that is a different story. That was truely the beginnng of the "we don't care", run down, rusty, paint peeling, junk eras, not unlike today.
Sheldon:
I am not a Ford fan but if I was to buy one it would be the FLEX for all the reasons that you state. My current ride is a 2014 Honda Odyssey. It is one of the most comfortable cars/vans/whatever that I have owned. Getting in and out is easy for both my wife and me. My lower spine is fused so ducking under a low roof line really messes up my hair (and I am bald on top!). A friend of mine recently bought a Honda SUV. In order to get in and out of the thing I have to drag the top of my head across the top of the door frame. What a stupid design!
Regards,
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Lets get real folks. Trains are used to move stuff, not entertain us.
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
hon30critter Sheldon: I am not a Ford fan but if I was to buy one it would be the FLEX for all the reasons that you state. My current ride is a 2014 Honda Odyssey. It is one of the most comfortable cars/vans/whatever that I have owned. Getting in and out is easy for both my wife and me. My lower spine is fused so ducking under a low roof line really messes up my hair (and I am bald on top!). A friend of mine recently bought a Honda SUV. In order to get in and out of the thing I have to drag the top of my head across the top of the door frame. What a stupid design! Regards, Dave
Dave, the Odyssey is by far the best of the mini vans, and Honda is a great company.
My personal objection to the mini van concept is the driver position, somewhat high and close to the front, but most importantly I don't care for front wheel drive.
Our FLEX is all wheel drive, a concept I am now sold on for passenger vehicles.
25 years ago I was not a FORD fan either, but 20 years of excellent experiances has changed my mind. That big green truck pictured above, just purchased in 2015, replaced a 2000 FORD F150 with 240,000 trouble free miles of construction work use.
Both FLEX's we have owned - first one crashed at 50,000 miles - have been trouble free, as were several Crown Vic's, several Explorers, and even a Focus our daughter put 170,000 miles on - can't say that about the Nissan she had.....
I restored/hot rodded/rebuilt this Chevy in my teens:
But I'm happy to be a FORD man today,
richg1998 Lets get real folks. Trains are used to move stuff, not entertain us. Rich
And cars are used to transport us and out stuff, yet look at the effort spent on making them attractive.....most of it unsuccessful.....
ATLANTIC CENTRALI restored/hot rodded/rebuilt this Chevy in my teens:
Now there's a roof line that I could be happy with!
My second car was an MGB which I managed to get about 200,000 miles out of through numerous rebuilds and some pretty creative patchwork. I could sit in that car with the top up and still wear my Reserve Officer's dress hat! Today, IF I could get into one (which I doubt) I would probably have to call the fire dept. to get me out again!
By the way, I always thought the Checkers looked pretty good too.
I have been considering a new vehicle. The Flex wasn't remotely on my radar, but after reading Sheldon's description, I will be sure to take a look at it when I decide to make the jump. I too am a big fan of all wheel drive.
Edit:
Apparently Ford has plans to kill the Flex by 2020 because it isn't a big enough seller.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I restored/hot rodded/rebuilt this Chevy in my teens:
'62/'63 Nova??? Had a '76 with the straight 6, 250 for a couple of years. Loved the simplicity and ease of working under the hood.
richg1998:
Yes, trains and containers are there to move stuff. But the more imaginative designs and liveries of the past illustrate the point that they can entertain us too, if the effort is expended. I'm more favorably disposed toward a company that interests me, and I don't care much for one that bores me. Whether that translates into a better bottom line for that company, is a question beyond my pay grade.
tstage ATLANTIC CENTRAL I restored/hot rodded/rebuilt this Chevy in my teens: '62/'63 Nova??? Had a '76 with the straight 6, 250 for a couple of years. Loved the simplicity and ease of working under the hood. Tom
Yes, 1963 Nova SS convertible. Nova convertibles only made 62 and 63. 63 only Nova convertible with the SS package , which was still a 6 cylinder. V8 not offered in the Nova until 64.
But, late in 63 the factory offered a dealer installed V8 package.
Mine was built as a 6, converted to a V8 by me with full 64 driveline and suspension upgrade. When I bought it, it did not run, the PO had started the V8 conversion and lost interest. I took it nearly completely apart, took nine months to restore/rebuild.
I built the 283 V8, 327 large valve heads, 327 factory hi lift cam, aluminum manifold, 600 cfm Holley carb, custom ignition curve tuning, headers, 2.5" exhaust - about 325 hp.
Muncie M20 4 speed, corvette clutch, heavy duty anti sway bars, adjustable shocks.
Body virtually stock with all SS trim, custom interior, 160 MPH in dash factory look speedometer, original SS full instruments.
Manual steering/manual drum brakes/manual convertible top
0-60 = less than 6 sec.
standing 1/4 mile = 14.5 sec.
top speed = 130+ (don't ask how I know)
fuel economy = 22 mpg highway/12 mpg city
Some not so great photos during the project:
It was my daily driver from 1976 until 1983, about 80,000 miles - then I sold it for nearly what I had invested in it.
It was great fun - so was the blonde........then I bought another Checker for the blonde and I to haul the babies around.......
I'm joining this discussion late so I might be repeating some things others have already said but I'll throw my in anyway.
First of all, I'm a transition era modeler so I don't have a lot of interest in modern day railroading. I haven't researched it at all so these are just casual obervations. It does seem like there is much less emphasis on retail railroading and much more on unit trains where a single commodity is sent by one shipper to one customer. A coal mine and a power plant for example. Most of the freights I see when I am stopped at a crossing will have no more than two or three different types of freight cars in long strings. I'm guessing these strings are all going to one place. I'm sure there are exceptions but I don't know of anywhere that you might see a peddler freight stopping to spot one or two cars. About the only variety I see is the grafitti on the cars, something that seems to have become prevelent in the last 20 years. What I really don't like about modern day freights is the lack of a caboose at the end. I know they have been gone for over 30 years and there is no reason to have one anymore but it still looks wrong to me.
Even on the little Ohio Central branchline that passes through my little burg of Utica, OH there is little variety. A single train travels from the mainline in Newark to the service the grain elevators in Mt. Vernon. The typical consist is 12-15 60' boxcars. On a couple of occasions I have seen a couple tank cars in the consist. To the best of my knowledge the grain elevators are the only customer on the line. There is a grain elevator in Utica as well but it doesn't have a rail siding anymore. Last year I did spot a spur a couple blocks south of the Mt. Vernon grain elevators that led to a covered platform. I wondered if this was a team track and whether or not it was still used but so far I haven't figured it out.
So yes, I do find modern railroading to be boring because of the lack of variety in most of the consists but that's not to say it's boring to everyone. Like everything else in this hobby, it's a matter of individual preference.
BRAKIE For those that would like to see the older EMD switchers and Geeps railfan short lines and for the most part boxcars ladings are their bread and butter. Its great to see a old GP9 pulling 6 or more boxcars..Some shorties still use a Alco end cab switcher as well..
Mostly what I see pulling the grain trains on the Ohio Central Newark-Mt. Vernon branch is an old EMD switcher, painted orange and white with no lettering. I used to see an occasional Geep as well. I live about 3 miles from Utica which the daily train passes through on its way up and back down the line. On most days I can hear the horn blowing as it negotiates the numerous grade crossings on the line.
Along my favorite stretch of railroad (BNSF at Lyle WA), I saw last year:
A whole lotta "unit" trains: coal, oil, grain, ocean intermodal, military, land intermodal, trash (ugh!).
And.
Some regular trains with "assorted" cars. Woodchip, centerbeam, tank, box, flats with steel sheet, flats with poles, gons with scrap steel...........
The local. I had a radio, so I could hear them discussing with the dispatcher about picking up or dropping off (can't remember which) a load of wood--I think at Bingen. And not tying up the main. Power for the local tends to be one or two GP38-2's and/or derated GP50's.
And one CABOOSE. Yup. Which prompted me to order one of the recent Atlas versions.
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe 60's and into the 70's, now that is a different story. That was truely the beginnng of the "we don't care", run down, rusty, paint peeling, junk eras, not unlike today. Sheldon
Very true but,there was a rainbow in the late 70s called the IPD boxcar era where very colorful and brand new 50' boxcars was seen everywhere.
Back to the 50s..The railroads was filthy,grimy and beginning to run down due to the State and Federal Governments forcing rails to operate unprofitable branch lines and passenger trains which cost millions to keep in operation. John G. Kneiling The Professional Iconoclast even stated railroads was doom if they didn't change their business as usual practices.
He preached unit trains,intermodal trains,smaller crews and cabooseless trains was the future of railroading if they wished to survive beyond the year 2000.
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL The 60's and into the 70's, now that is a different story. That was truely the beginnng of the "we don't care", run down, rusty, paint peeling, junk eras, not unlike today. Sheldon Very true but,there was a rainbow in the late 70s called the IPD boxcar era where very colorful and brand new 50' boxcars was seen everywhere. Back to the 50s..The railroads was filthy,grimy and beginning to run down due to the State and Federal Governments forcing rails to operate unprofitable branch lines and passenger trains which cost millions to keep in operation. John G. Kneiling The Professional Iconoclast even stated railroads was doom if they didn't change their business as usual practices. He preached unit trains,intermodal trains,smaller crews and cabooseless trains was the future of railroading if they wished to survive beyond the year 2000.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL The 60's and into the 70's, now that is a different story. That was truely the beginnng of the "we don't care", run down, rusty, paint peeling, junk eras, not unlike today. Sheldon
I think we need to seperate the early 50's from the late 50's.........
And, the railroads were all in for piggyback/intermodal, very soon after WWII - it was the government that was in the way.........
If rates and territories for both trucks and trains had been deregulated then, not 30 years later, railroads would have done better, trucking would be different but very effective, 100's of billions of gallons of diesel fuel would have been saved, and the highways would be less crowded and safer.......
My father worked in the trucking industry, he was offered a job with the Southern Railroad's piggyback operation. He gave it a try, but problems with regulations slowed its implimentation and he moved on back into the trucking side.
The early/mid 50's was full of new colorful box cars, B&O silver and blue, NYC red and grey, MP blue and yellow, and the piggyback shemes were bright and fancy too.
Did all that "new" last real long? Maybe not, but model railroading is like a snapshot in time........that's why I model 1954........
ATLANTIC CENTRALDid all that "new" last real long? Maybe not, but model railroading is like a snapshot in time........that's why I model 1954........ Sheldon
That's why I like 77/78 era,lots of colorful IPD short line boxcars.
There is a difference between the early 50s and late 50s as well as location.I remember well the PRR steam along side of brand new GP9s and RS11s in the mid 50s. I also recall N&W's GP9s and RS11s stayed cleaner then PRRs.
One thing I never seen modeled..The soiled toilet paper found along the track. You recall "Passengers will please refrain from flushing toilet while standing at a station".
My family took an overnight train from Montreal to Toronto in the early 50's. As I recall, it was a very pleasant experience.
In the mid to late 50's I hung out around the Bay Area SP stations, tracks, and yards. Stations and other facilities were still neat and clean. Equipment was painted, as far as I can remember. I know it was nothing like the horrid shape it later descended into.
In school there was a lot of talk about railroads, but it was all about the end of steam. Even the adults were sad.
jecorbett I'm joining this discussion late so I might be repeating some things others have already said but I'll throw my in anyway. First of all, I'm a transition era modeler so I don't have a lot of interest in modern day railroading. I haven't researched it at all so these are just casual obervations. It does seem like there is much less emphasis on retail railroading and much more on unit trains where a single commodity is sent by one shipper to one customer. A coal mine and a power plant for example. Most of the freights I see when I am stopped at a crossing will have no more than two or three different types of freight cars in long strings. I'm guessing these strings are all going to one place. I'm sure there are exceptions but I don't know of anywhere that you might see a peddler freight stopping to spot one or two cars. About the only variety I see is the grafitti on the cars, something that seems to have become prevelent in the last 20 years.
First of all, I'm a transition era modeler so I don't have a lot of interest in modern day railroading. I haven't researched it at all so these are just casual obervations. It does seem like there is much less emphasis on retail railroading and much more on unit trains where a single commodity is sent by one shipper to one customer. A coal mine and a power plant for example. Most of the freights I see when I am stopped at a crossing will have no more than two or three different types of freight cars in long strings. I'm guessing these strings are all going to one place. I'm sure there are exceptions but I don't know of anywhere that you might see a peddler freight stopping to spot one or two cars. About the only variety I see is the grafitti on the cars, something that seems to have become prevelent in the last 20 years.
This is extremely reliant on where you live though. Here in DC and Northern Virginia, the only unit trains are the Juice Train and coal moving to Georgia and South Carolina. Two out of three trains is a manifest freight. The most common thing I see is boxcars. It's a huge shift from Pittsburgh, where it was all coal, scrap, and coil cars. We don't even get autoracks through Virginia. They don't fit in the tunnel under Virginia Ave in DC.
Last year I had a motel room overlooking the tracks coming off of Long Bridge into DC. We're talking "stone's throw" distances.
Lotsa juice. Lotsa what looked like phosphates. Fair amount of chemicals.
I surely miss Pot Yard. And the grade crossing at Burke, VA.
And, occasionally, my yute. Near Burke. And Alexandria.
OK. If you insist: looking out the window of freshman english at the southbound tracks of Potomac Yard.
I take back the no autoracks because the first doublestacks just moved through Virginia Ave on saturday.
It depends on where you are. I see UP, NS, and CN freights through here along with regular Metra commuter traffic, and just about any type of freight car still in service runs through here pretty regularly. If I modeled modern day in my area, there would be *so much* to choose from.
I do wonder what's going on at the Vulcan Materials siding though, the same SSAM jennies have been sitting there for months.
Friday afternoon was funny stuff. 11 CN locomotives pulling 8 tank cars. Anyone sensible would probably see this as a power move, but I like to think of it as overkill :)
Julian
Modeling Pre-WP merger UP (1974-81)
I enjoy running My ATHG AT&SF Freight Blue/Yellow F3 A-B-B-A set on our clubs module layout. I discovered it is pretty easy to model a transition era freight train with any ATHG F3's/F7's, some steam era freight cars, and the right type of caboose. I know 50/60's are usually stagnant and don't change much, but that was my first train I started with when I joined the club. I'm slowly working on expanding my roster collection based on what I like, not what someone else says.
To put it another way, 50's/60's are usually stagnant while 70's/80's/90's are more dynamic, shedding at the older end while it adds at the upper end.
Example; ATSF drops SD45-2's and adds more SD75M's. Then SD75M's are retired and BNSF brings in C44-9W's and AC4400CW's. ES44AC's are next in line.
ATSFGuy To put it another way, 50's/60's are stagnant while 70's/80's/90's are more dynamic, shedding at the older end while it adds at the upper end. Example; ATSF drops SD45-2's and adds more SD75M's. Then SD75M's are retired and BNSF brings in C44-9W's and AC4400CW's.
To put it another way, 50's/60's are stagnant while 70's/80's/90's are more dynamic, shedding at the older end while it adds at the upper end.
Example; ATSF drops SD45-2's and adds more SD75M's. Then SD75M's are retired and BNSF brings in C44-9W's and AC4400CW's.
?????? What does this mean?
If you truely model a specific year, with a specific cutoff date, all modeling is stagnant. It is a fixed moment in time.
You don't have or represent anything after your cut off, it did not exist yet. The fact that it is "going to exist" has no bearing on your modeling.
The 60's may have been a "stagnant" or declining period for the railroads, the 50's was not. That's why I haven no interest in the "trains of my youth" that so many say "we are supposed" to be interested in modeling. I grew up in the 60's and 70's.
If, for example, it is September 25, 1954 on your layout, than you can have anything that existed before that time, that logicaly would still be in use, but if your are strict about it, than you will have NOTHING that has not been build yet, even if it showed up on September 26, 1954 - that is a "stagnant" or fixed snapshot in time - so is July 10, 1986.....
The newest loco on my layout is an SD9 - EMD produced the first ones in January 1954........
As for what was going in in railroading in the 50's, all thru the 50's the railroads were investing in massive conversions of flat cars into piggyback service, roller bearing trucks were being introduced widespread, nearly all the diesels were new, and EMD and ALCO could not build them fast enough, that's the only thing that really kept steam around as long as it did.
Some roads made last ditch efforts with new passenger equipment while others looked to eliminate passenger service while still others looked to re-invent passenger service with RDC's, the AeroTrain, etc.
Cushion underframes were introduced, plug doors introduced, mechanical reefers introduced, long flat cars introduced, container transport introduced/expanded, colorful paint schemes at least for diesel locos, piggyback vans, reefers and box cars in priority package services.
The railroads were rebuilding after nearly a decade of defered maintenence during the war, a war we entered at the end of a depression.
The 50's stagnant, I think not, now the "dip black" late 60's and 70's, that is boring.........and depressing.
My era is better than your era; na na. It had to come to this.
Didn't anyone else look at the title of this thread as being in the same category as: DC is Dead, DCC is Dead, Bluerail will replace everything, Model railroading is too expensive?
These types of threads gather the most coments of any; but to me it is not a discussion around the campfire with adult beverages. It is more like the discusion before the bar fight. These are the Drive-by threads, to paraphrase a popular radio commentator, designed to get people worked up over nothing.
If railroading was boring and uninspiring, why would any of us be here? We would be out having a good time with shuffleboard.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
BigDaddy My era is better than your era; na na. It had to come to this. Didn't anyone else look at the title of this thread as being in the same category as: DC is Dead, DCC is Dead, Bluerail will replace everything, Model railroading is too expensive? These types of threads gather the most coments of any; but to me it is not a discussion around the campfire with adult beverages. It is more like the discusion before the bar fight. These are the Drive-by threads, to paraphrase a popular radio commentator, designed to get people worked up over nothing. If railroading was boring and uninspiring, why would any of us be here? We would be out having a good time with shuffleboard.
Henry, it is not about one era being better or more interesting than the next, but it is about others misrepresenting facts.
Fact - In 1954 an F3 was not an old decrepit locomotive - the oldest F3 at that time was 9 years old, an the oldest F7 or GP7 was only 5 years old, as noted above a SD9 was brand new.
Now, if you are modeling 1973, an F7 is an old, about to be replaced, worn out 24 year old junker........
And I don't drink "adult beverages", or hang out with those who do, because for the most part they lead to people not behaving like adults.......
PS - and if others want to model some other era, or no era at all, or loosely collect and run trains from 1970 to 1990, that's fine with me.
They just need not tell me "what the 50's was like" because clearly they have not studied railroad history in any detail.
A few more thoughts, covered much earler, but just to be clear.
Railroading is generally a dirty business, the 50's was no different.
But there is a big difference between dirt vs rust and decay.
The late 40's and the early 50's was a time of rebuilding, replacing, repainting, repurposing (like 1930's boxcar underframes rebuilt into piggyback flat cars) and upgrading after the war time years of neglect.
So sure, there were still 1930's box cars and hoppers in not so great condition, but they were replaced or rebuilt as quickly as possible starting right away after the war.
By the early 50's, dispite a few bumps in the economy, the railroads were flush with cash, buying new diesels, building new bigger boxcars, offering flashing express services, investing in piggyback, repainting and rebuilding, etc.
True, by 1958, or 1963, not all of those investments had paid off as well as hoped.........but if you model 1954, that hope still exists....and that paint is still shinny........
And for those of you who model the PRR, or who observed the PRR in that time - other railroads did actually clean stuff..........
ATLANTIC CENTRALThey just need not tell me "what the 50's was like" because clearly they have not studied railroad history in any detail.
Or maybe they have and did a lot of railfaning in the 50s? I recall the decaying 50s when everything was filthy and to top that there was rows of dead steam engines covered in pigeon poo.
Study of those perfect 50 era photos in books doesn't tell the real gritty story that railfans of that era avoid taking photos of..
Ever wonder why I never had the desire to model the 50s era even though I toyed with the idea? The 60s told the story of dying railroads that was operating under Chapter 13 just to stay afloat.
You can be sure I have no desire to model todays railroads either.
Larry, that makes no sense? Those steam locos were lined up in the dead line because they had been replaced by brand new shinny diesels. We had lines of them here in Baltimore too, some still sitting around in the late 60's
And once again - dirty is different from rusty and broken - up close railroading has always been a dirty business - so is trucking, or ships........
I never disagreed with dirty...........EXCEPT, the Western Maryland and the N&W kept their locos nearly spotless.
The N&W had massive indoor shops were the steam locos, and later the diesels too, were serviced and steam cleaned all along various point on the line. It was part of their program to keep steam longer than other roads did, and to some degree it worked.
Everyone in this discussion seems to miss the point that selecting and modeling a set era means just that, a fixed snapshot in time, with no regard for what will happen next - because it is the future.
If you model 1954, you should model it honestly, but with the same optimism with which the railroads built thousands of piggyback flats, bought new diesels (even from ALCO), or the same optimism with which the ATSF and C&O ordered new passenger cars and the B&O bought a large fleet of RDC's.
If you model a different era, adjust you findings as needed........
But even the depression was not as "depressed" as some have chosen to model it.
At any moment in time, there will always be new things, and old things in the world. There will always be people who choose hope, and those who wallow in dispare. There will always be those who restore an old house, and those who drive a bull dozer through one - we all see the world from a different point of view.
Even looking at eras in railroad history I don't care for, there is good to be seen and modeled.
My father worked for CAROLINA FREIGHT in the 70's. They had a fleet of 1950's Mack B models they still used for local delivery. They had a continious program of total restoration - not one of those 20 year old trucks ever looked more than 5 years old. I personally watched the restoration of several of them in their Baltimore shop.
See the world however you like, I choose to see the better version......
The Transition era (steam-diesel) changes a little bit but not that much unless you model all fifties without a cutoff date.
It varies since every modeler is different.
if you model the 1970's, 1980's, or 1990's, remember that cabooses started to fade away after 1986.
On my railroad, 1990 is the cutoff year for cabooses. After 1990, the EOT is introduced and becomes the norm.
ATSFGuy The Transition era (steam-diesel) changes a little bit but not that much unless you model all fifties without a cutoff date. It varies since every modeler is different. if you model the 1970's, 1980's, or 1990's, remember that cabooses started to fade away after 1986.
The transistion era only "changes a little bit" from what? WWII, not really, hardly any diesels during WWII. Not much piggyback before 1950, I would call those a big changes.....
Again, if you are modeling a fixed year, than there is no "change", only that "present" and the past that lead up to it.
You can only depict "change" if you model more than one era, or if you imbrace a "window" of time - 1980 to 1990. Not an approach I have any interest in for any era of modeling.
Again, on my layout it is September 1954, we don't know what is going to happen in the future, we only know that our F7's are only a few years old and that two new SD9's just showed up from LaGrange, and we are still using steam and have decided like the N&W to keep it in reasonable repair for now - next year the bosses might feel differently - but like the movie "Ground Hog Day", next year never comes......
First, I guess we ought to agree on a definition of transition era. Most folks tend to think it's from a couple years before WWII to the end of steam. Some would say it started at the end of WWII. Depending on your prototype, that's about a 10-20 year period.
No matter how you define it, the suggestion that the transition era was even remotely like a static situation is absolute poppycock. During the 1930's, a lot of railroads made very few new purchases, but almost every railroad retired old, inefficient cars and locos or put them in storage. In a desperate attempt to gain efficiency, the NKP sold a bunch of older locos to raise money to buy a smaller number of brand new, more powerful and efficient Berkshires. Diesels began to make their appearances during this time, mostly in yard service. Some passenger and freight diesels came on the scene with a lot of fanfare, but steam was in charge overall.
Once the war got under way, the roads scrambled to get every available piece of equipment in service. Cars and locos were converted. New cars and locos were built. Some roads (like N&W) sold surplus locos to unlikely new owners. New cars were built, including war emergency designs that saved steel by using a lot of wood.
After the war, much of this equipment was completely worn out and needed complete replacement. New cars were almost all steel, and wooden components on the war emergency cars were often replaced with steel. Typical new-built boxcars were based on the 1937 AAR design from about 1937 until a couple years after the war. but the PS-1 was introduced in 1947 and that design went into serious large-scale production beginning about 1950-51. Diesel prime movers had been in short supply during the war because of military requirements, but peace meant the ability to retire steam in favor of diesels, and the railroads bought diesels like a golddigger in a jewelry shop. Long lines of retired steam engines began to grow in railroad yards all over the country, waiting for the best scrap prices. Long funeral trains of steam locos and/or old outdated cars were sometimes seen.
On the passenger front, every large railroad invested heavily in new passenger equipment to replace the equipment that had been run to death during the war.
During the 1950's, the numbers of covered hoppers increased dramatically. They had been a tiny fraction of the freight car fleet previously. In 1950, USRA hoppers were a common sight. By 1960 they were pretty rare, and by 1965 they were gone for all practical purposes. Cars with wood sides were very common in the 1940's, but they became increasingly rare. By about 1970, they were a very rare sight. Production of offset hoppers was seriously reduced by the late 1950's because of a tendency to rust at critical points. I think the last traditiobnal offset hoppers were built around 1964, and many roads started retiring them after that.
Changes occurred daily and often unexpectedly from the beginning to the end of the transition period, whenever you decide it began and ended. Nothing was static.
ACYChanges occurred daily and often unexpectedly from the beginning to the end of the transition period, whenever you decide it began and ended. Nothing was static. Tom
That holds true with today's railroads..A local could use a caboose for long reverse moves while others use a "noisy" caboose-that's a engine on both ends for long reverse moves.
I live in an area that sees freight drags and local service by CSX, and by NS not too far away.....in addition to the wide-cab double-stack container unit train stuff. Its interesting.
- Douglas
Dave, You're funny!!
What about this, let's say I model 1948-1973, possibly 1975. Then I model 1993-2004, maybe go to 2005 or 2010.
I've split my modeling eras into two parts. The past and present. One evolves, one doesn't.
Hopefully this makes more sense
ATSFGuy What about this, let's say I model 1948-1973, possibly 1975. Then I model 1993-2004, maybe go to 2005 or 2010. I've split my modeling eras into two parts. The past and present. One evolves, one doesn't. Hopefully this makes more sense
First, everyone should model whatever/however they like, or just buy/collect and run trains - BUT, if you are modeling 1948-1973, then you are effectively modeling 1973.
Any historically correct depection of anything includes the things that came before that are still in use, but does not include the things that came after.......
In 1973 lots of things from 1948 were still around, and lots of things from 1948 were long gone, so for me, that approach does not work........
Modeling the N&W freelanced at the height of their steam era in HO.
Daniel G.
I loved the 60s best. I really miss cabooses. Secondly, open autoracks allowed one to see the newest automobiles being shipped. No, you couldn't see every detail, but it was neat to be able to say, "look at those new Mustangs", for example. And there was a huge variety of trailer styles on piggybacks, though many required some knowledge of truck trailers to discern.
There were dozens of Class 1's...not just 7, and most boxcars represented railroads well. You could tell which railroad owned a boxcar in a train, even before it got close enough for you to see the reporting marks because of it's colors and large logo and/or motto, expression or phrase.
Sure, the railroads were in decline, and that's why my track does not look well maintained, and most everything "older than 10 years" is weathered quite a bit.
Mike
I agree freight trains are extremely boring and passenger trains aren't much better! I recently went to the Old Vicksburg Bridge and I got to go out about halfway across the bridge to the MS/LA borderline while a UP train was coming across (that's a whole other thread <check under my Prototype Information About Old Vicksburg Bridge and Thebes Bridge thread>) and the train was mostly made up of double stack or single stack intermodal containers, trailers piggybacking, and intermodal containers on piggyback cars; it was nice but more assortment would be nicer.
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
Because ES44ACs look exactly like SD70ACus....hint they dont. I find that I have generally good railfan luck. I believe this is entirely due to the fact that if I see a train I will stay to see the whole thing go past. I keep my camera ready as the whole train goes by, you never know what you may find.
I have seen and photographed freight cars painted for Maine Central, Boston and Maine, Pan AM, Guilford, Norfolk Southern, Norfolk and Western, Southern Railway, ATSF, UP, KCS, BNSF, CSX, Chessie System (as recently as Christmas I found a Chessie snow plow and caboose during an Amtrak trip), Providence and Worcester, SOO Line, Canadian Pacific, Canandian National (also Canadien), Conrail, Reading Blue Mountain and Northern, as well as a plethora of X cars (private owned cars of all shapes and sizes).
Edit: All of these sightings have occured 2015-present.
I was fortunate enough to visit the railfan bridge a Selkirk Yard on a couple of occasions before CSX obliterated it to put a new bypass in around the yard (admitedly it was falling apart). I was able to find locomotives from all class 1 railroads in one place at one time, plus some Pan Am units laying over and a cab end switcher (some sort of EMD SW product, it was pretty far away and painted for a private owner).
At Washinton Union Station I was treated to what I suspect is the oldest surviving SW-1 still in service (they started it up while I was on the platform taking a "smoke break" while Amtrak swapped power on the Silver Star or Meteor, dont remember which), painted for Amtrak, originally a NYC locmotive.
If railroads are boring, youre not looking hard enough or in the right places.
If I had to guess, the reason you are not seeing local frieghts is because the run them at night (P&W-Borg does that in south eastern CT).
I forgot to mention Borg units, more commonly known as Genessee and Wyoming. Ive managed to catch Indiana Southern Railroad units 3 or 4 times on trips back to Indiana, either waiting on crew or hauling coal or grain of some sort.
Also Connecticut Southern RR/New England Central (they even had a caboose, up in White River Junction, VT).
INRD SD9043MACs are also pretty cool and unique. There are not a whole lot of these out there, so if you see one, take a photo.
Most of the SD90H production has been scrapped due to their unreliability, or rebuilt into SD70ACus(NS)
BMMECNYCIf railroads are boring, youre not looking hard enough or in the right places.
And those are the same ones that says boxcars are no longer used and when they are presented with facts they revert back to "All I see is stack trains" or "I don't have time to railfan". Yet,they know today's railroads are boring with very little railfan experience.
I don't "railfan", never have really. Sitting by the tracks waiting to see a train is like watching paint dry or grass grow to me.
BUT, do I pay attention when I'm near the tracks and a train happens by? YES, I live near the northeast corridor, my day to day takes me by the tracks all the time, I see trains almost daily, especially AMTRAK.
Do I care what those modern locos are? No. Do I know much about many of those modern freight cars or passenger cars, no, only the basics.
My railroad knowledge is centered around historical trains, 50 years ago, 75 years ago, 100 years ago - that is what interests me, that is what I model.
Boring is not the right word, but todays trains are just a passing interest, not something I need to see or need to know the details about.
If you take any 10 year span, the train at the beginning of the span will be noticeably different than the trains at the end of the 10 year span.
As for boring, actually look at a rail yard in the transistion era. 90% of the cars are a reddish brown or black. If you are in an area that handles reefers maybe throw in yellow or orange.
Once again we agree more than we diagree, Sheldon. Will I watch a modern trin go by? Sure. Do I actively seek out prime times and locations to go watch them? No.
And modeling the mid 50's makes for a HUGE variety. Many railroads around, so lots of road names can appear in a train. You can legitimately have steam and diesel locos. And unless you are modeling a small shortline, you can have a huge variety of first generation diesels because all the builders were around, and many railroads at least sampled each of the major builders before deciding which ones to stick with. You can have some pre-war cars on the roads, because not everyone could afford that brand new '55 Ford. Things were changing fast - passenger trains were still a big deal but the Interstate highway system was under construction and car and truck traffic were on the rise. Car types were more varied - not everything was neatly packed up in boxcars, plenty of stuff still rode flats and in gons. Of course the caboose was still on every train.
A great time to model, even if I wasn't there to see it in person.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI don't "railfan", never have really. Sitting by the tracks waiting to see a train is like watching paint dry or grass grow to me.
That's how I feel about golf and sports in general with TV a tight second. I watch three hours of TV a day,Emergency! Chips and M*A*S*H..
A day at a railfan park or hot spot is refreshing and relaxing and the fans you meet sure enough beats staying home on a beautiful day.
With my railfan experience I can say with knowledge that boxcars are still quite common and you never know what you will see like SD40-2s/SD40-3s on a NS and CSX freight train in 2017. A BNSF "warbonnet" or a cream and green BNSF locomotive or a B&M gon or boxcar. I've seen older Seaboard System covered hoppers,few Chessie covered hoppers among other fallen flag railroads including a faded CR gon with a E-L diamond starting to show through the fading paint.
I haven't even touch the short lines with first and second generation locomotives.
Boring? Not likely..Watching grass grow sounds more like watching golf or baseball.
One guy whacks a little white ball with a miniature hockey stick and chases it down with the other guy hits a larger white ball with a round stick and then runs like the devil was chasing him and then he gets to walk back.
Well, Larry, I don't watch much TV, especially not sports. Stopped following any sports years go.........never really was a big deal to me. Was there some sort of big game last weekend?
Don't play golf........
I do enjoy a good movie on a regular basis, at home or in the theatre.
Otherwise I have plenty to keep me busy, lots of trains to build.
Even my interest in the social side of this hobby has been up and down. For years I was active in a local Round Robin here, just got to the point where I would rather work on my own stuff than "hang out" with anybody........
About the only exciting things that go through here are if one of the NS Heritage units is on the train, or when the East Penn Railway uses running rights with some older power they use. Otherwise about the only thing that goes by when it's daylight and I'm not at work are auto racks, tank trains, or (mostly) containers on well cars. There's a mixed freight each way, I don't know how many times each day or how many days of the week I've managed to see a few times, but usually it runs when I'm not there to see it. Very little switching in the immediate area. I do hear more trains than I see, several times at night I hear them blowing for crossings.
Guys,I just turn 69 and have a bad ticker so,I still enjoy railfanning on a beautiful Spring or Summer day since its a matter of time before I get called to what lays beyond the veil.
When the old mercury climbs into the 90s its time to model or railfan from my air condition man cave window-a former 10x12 foot master bedroom.
BRAKIE Guys,I just turn 69 and have a bad ticker so,I still enjoy railfanning on a beautiful Spring or Summer day since its a matter of time before I get called to what lays beyond the veil. When the old mercury climbs into the 90s its time to model or railfan from my air condition man cave window-a former 10x12 foot master bedroom.
I'm only 10 years behind you, but luckily in good health so far. I just prefer people in very small doses, and again, my primary interest in trains is more historical.
Now, that said, here is how I railfan. The Strasburg Railroad is only 50 minutes from my house, and they run most of the year, including weekdays. So I can jump in the car, with a friend, or the wife, or alone, and buzz up there, watch some steam action, ride the train, pop into the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum, go to the train shop, all in a nice afternoon.
Way more interesting than CSX, no matter how many times I have been there in the past. (been going since I was a small child.....)
ATLANTIC CENTRALNow, that said, here is how I railfan. The Strasburg Railroad is only 50 minutes from my house, and they run most of the year, including weekdays. So I can jump in the car, with a friend, or the wife, or alone, and buzz up there, watch some steam action, ride the train, pop into the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum, go to the train shop, all in a nice afternoon.
Sounds like a great way to kill a lazy summer Saturday.I would love to do that once.
However..
To my mind its make believe only because I have fond memories of N&W M1 4-8-0 #444 switching cars at Kroger bakery. This required 3 hours to switch due to the number and location of car spots.
Sadly around 1957/58 a GP9 replaced 444.
I also recall the last of PRR steam in every day service. The last PRR 0-6-0 was used by the salvage company until '60 for moving loaded gons of cut up steam engines..She to would be scrapped on site.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I don't "railfan", never have really. Sitting by the tracks waiting to see a train is like watching paint dry or grass grow to me. Sheldon
On my semi-decade-ly bouts of "railfanning", I bring a stack of books. Helps a lot. I also spend a good bit of time seeing what one doesn't see--sorta zen, that--noticing particular wildflowers and former water tank foundations. And watch the weeds (grass) grow.
Every 5 years (starting in 2005), I "camp out" next to my favorite rail location and photograph everything that goes by. Car by car. Well, not in '05, 'cause I was using film. And my winder couldn't have kept up. Not to mention, the film change every 36 shots. That problem/irritation has been SOLVED.
Back in 2005, I shot an SDP40 and a GP60B. And lots C44-9W's. And more.
In 2015, lotsa C44-9W's. And a dome-obs on the tail of an Amtrak train. And a mil-train. And more.
I try to record both the usual and the unusual that go by each time so as to get a sense of it. And then possibly model it. All this is, I guess, not really railfanning, but recording.
Back in the '70's, I'd go out to the local railroads and photograph "freight cars of interest". Again, not really the regular railfanning.
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL Now, that said, here is how I railfan. The Strasburg Railroad is only 50 minutes from my house, and they run most of the year, including weekdays. So I can jump in the car, with a friend, or the wife, or alone, and buzz up there, watch some steam action, ride the train, pop into the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum, go to the train shop, all in a nice afternoon. Sounds like a great way to kill a lazy summer Saturday.I would love to do that once. However.. To my mind its make believe only because I have fond memories of N&W M1 4-8-0 #444 switching cars at Kroger bakery. This required 3 hours to switch due to the number and location of car spots. Sadly around 1957/58 a GP9 replaced 444. I also recall the last of PRR steam in every day service. The last PRR 0-6-0 was used by the salvage company until '60 for moving loaded gons of cut up steam engines..She to would be scrapped on site.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Now, that said, here is how I railfan. The Strasburg Railroad is only 50 minutes from my house, and they run most of the year, including weekdays. So I can jump in the car, with a friend, or the wife, or alone, and buzz up there, watch some steam action, ride the train, pop into the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum, go to the train shop, all in a nice afternoon.
You watched 444 do switching, I have rode behind her sister 475 many times.....
You like freight trains, I like freight and passenger trains.......
You do realize there is a clear bias in everything you say against passenger trains and mainline operation?
I may be fixed on only one era, but I like all aspects of railroading, including industrial switching.
rrinkerAbout the only exciting things that go through here are if one of the NS Heritage units is on the train, or when the East Penn Railway uses running rights with some older power they use.
How about Reading, Blue Mountain and Northern (http://www.rbmnrr.com/). Headquarters is Port Clinton, PA (the Appalacian Trail runs right through their yard). Well worth checking out their railroad. Not sure when is best time to railfan, but thats where I found Soo Line covered Hoppers (Cressona, PA).
ATLANTIC CENTRALYou do realize there is a clear bias in everything you say against passenger trains and mainline operation?
Sheldon,I freely admit I would rather switch cars then run main line trains. The bread and butter of railroads is delivering the freight to its customers better known as switching.
As for passenger trains.. I'm under no delusion that they were at one time great trains but,in the 60s I saw the death knell of the passenger train and railroads begging to drop them since their passenger trains was losing millions if not billions to operate and maintain..
Trains Magazine of that era told the sad story of dying trains including many that was once proud flag ships of the railroads.. Trains frequently broke down enroute and could be hours late. I do not wish to model that.
The 50s was the beginning of the down hill slide of many once great railroads and the death knell was beginning to sound for passenger trains.
Again Trains Magazine told the sad story.Railfaning proved the stories to be all to true.
You rode behind the 475..I was in the cab of 444 when I was 8 years old.
But I don't model the 60's, in my world it has not happened yet.........and it will never happen because I have no interest in mving my era forward.
If I ever did change modeling era, I would go back farther, like 1910, the era in my home was only 9 years old.........
The whole point of historical modeling is to suspend time and capture the past, it cannot be influenced by a future that has not happened yet.
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe whole point of historical modeling is to suspend time and capture the past, it cannot be influenced by a future that has not happened yet.
But,was in the making with the coming of TWA,PAN AM,United Air Lines, American Airways and as improve two lane roads started showing up there went a lot of freight..The trucking industry was proving they could transport freight faster then rail and they had a strong influence in a certain city on the East coast.
The down hill slide of passenger trains did not happen overnight. The die was cast shortly after WWII.
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL The whole point of historical modeling is to suspend time and capture the past, it cannot be influenced by a future that has not happened yet. But,was in the making with the coming of TWA,PAN AM,United Air Lines, American Airways and as improve two lane roads started showing up there went a lot of freight..The trucking industry was proving they could transport freight faster then rail and they had a strong influence in a certain city on the East coast. The down hill slide of passenger trains did not happen overnight. The die was cast shortly after WWII.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL The whole point of historical modeling is to suspend time and capture the past, it cannot be influenced by a future that has not happened yet.
I know all that and I don't care, I build model trains to relax, have fun and get away from "input overload" from people.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI know all that and I don't care, I build model trains to relax, have fun and get away from "input overload" from people.
Since we are emulating railroads should we not emulate railroad history as well? Many of us do.
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL I know all that and I don't care, I build model trains to relax, have fun and get away from "input overload" from people. Since we are emulating railroads should we not emulate railroad history as well? Many of us do.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I know all that and I don't care, I build model trains to relax, have fun and get away from "input overload" from people.
But once again Larry, how we emulate 1954 should not be influenced by what we know about how things turned out later, we should model it as if we are in that moment and don't know how things will turn out. Why is this so hard to understand? Hindsight is alway 20/20, foresight not so much.
So some people were optimistic in 1954 and their hopes did not work out, we can still model those hopes.
You and George Sellios are most welcome to model from a pessimistic point of view, I prefer the opposite view both in modeling and in my actual day to day life.
One example, the railroads jumped into piggyback with both feet, it only paid off partly do to government short sightedness, resistence from SOME of the trucking industry, etc. But by 1954 they had jumped in, I model the jump, not the failings and struggles later with 40' trailers, stupid regulations, etc.
Again, feel free to model whatever depressing stuff you want.....
Still an optimist here,
ATLANTIC CENTRAL BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL I know all that and I don't care, I build model trains to relax, have fun and get away from "input overload" from people. Since we are emulating railroads should we not emulate railroad history as well? Many of us do. But once again Larry, how we emulate 1954 should not be influenced by what we know about how things turned out later, we should model it as if we are in that moment and don't know how things will turn out. Why is this so hard to understand? Hindsight is alway 20/20, foresight not so much.
Taking it a step further, when we model a specific era, we are emulating railroad history. If you want to emulate railroad futurity at the same time, you probably need to construct a double deck layout, one deck modeling your chosen era, the other deck modeling the current era.
In my case, modeling Chicago's Dearborn Station in the mid-1950s, I would need a second deck showing an abandoned area of station tracks and a deserted train station in 1971, and a third deck showing Dearborn Park, a residential area of townhomes and condominiums, in the 1990s replacing the track work and freight houses when Dearborn Station was in its glory.
I model every 5 years starting in 1945.
Why?
Well, I like steam: 1945 was quite a good year for steam where I'm modeling
I think container trains are fascinating: NOT 1945
Back in the day, I got into a tizzy when the GN went to Big Sky Blue. Outrageous and ugly, I said! Then they bought F45's. Then there was the BN merger. Outrageous and somethin', I said! Then I saw a whole buncha stuff painted in the BN scheme. Then there was BNSF. Outrageous and yukee, I said. Then I saw a set of dismals in the H2 scheme. My "horizons" kept expanding.
Point being is that I like/love many aspects of railroading, and don't care to choose.
Which results in kind of a problem: the layout
Now, one spot I am intent on modeling is Lyle, WA. 'Cause. It IS sort of a backwater. But it's MY backwater. It's changed a lot over the years: the station (which was painted in various schemes over the years) was wiped out by marauding grain hoppers in the '90's (as I recall). The last water tank was taken out at some time. In 2005, the foundation was still there. It's gone now.
Anyway, I'm faced with what to do about change over time.
The station will be removable. As in lift off the foundation. The real foundation was removed along with the station remnants, but I will be leaving a good part of my foundation. I suppose I could make several station models in different paint schemes.
Too, the water tank will probably lift off. And the foundation will remain.
It's an interesting challenge to (try) to make a time-convertible layout. Hope I'm up to it. I DO realize that I likely won't be able to pull it off for every detail.
richhotrainTaking it a step further, when we model a specific era, we are emulating railroad history. If you want to emulate railroad futurity at the same time, you probably need to construct a double deck layout, one deck modeling your chosen era, the other deck modeling the current era.
Actually a lot of the larger stations in the 50-60 era had track out of service because they was no longer needed. A lot of platforms was closed off as well..Even roundhouses for passenger locomotives was being downsized.
PRR went from 8,000 employees in the Columbus shops to around 2500 by '51. A lot of the shop buildings stood vacant.
So,one layout will fill a lot of history even in '54.
BRAKIE richhotrain Taking it a step further, when we model a specific era, we are emulating railroad history. If you want to emulate railroad futurity at the same time, you probably need to construct a double deck layout, one deck modeling your chosen era, the other deck modeling the current era. Actually a lot of the larger stations in the 50-60 era had track out of service because they was no longer needed. A lot of platforms was closed off as well..Even roundhouses for passenger locomotives was being downsized. PRR went from 8,000 employees in the Columbus shops to around 2500 by '51. A lot of the shop buildings stood vacant. So,one layout will fill a lot of history even in '54.
richhotrain Taking it a step further, when we model a specific era, we are emulating railroad history. If you want to emulate railroad futurity at the same time, you probably need to construct a double deck layout, one deck modeling your chosen era, the other deck modeling the current era.
Very true, those shinny new fangled diesels needed way less care and feeding, and spend much less time in the shop and more out on the road. That meant less of them were needed to cover the same schedules.
Some steam shops were abandoned, while others were completely refurbished and refitted to service the diesels, while in other cases complete new shops were built for the diesels. Another example, you can focus on the empty building.....or you can focus on the remodeled and repurposed one, or the brand new one.
And there you have it again, the brand new diesel shop, the repurposed and remodeled shop, and the out of use abandoned building.....all existing at the same point in time. New...renovated...abandoned, the natural cycle of building use always in play at ANY point in history, in any place in the world.
To model the abandoned building and not the one in use would be disingenuous to the fact that we are modeling the working, functioning "railroad". Sure we should show some of the natural history, a steam loco out of service, changes in the use of buildings, etc.
But at a time like that when the railroads were taking delivery of new locos as fast as EMD and ALCO could build them, why would you focus on the negative, or the old? Not that I see the natural cycle of things like that as negative....it is progress, it is how it works.
And, our selectively compressed model layouts can only give a small "snap shot" of any of this.......what is most important? The steam locos on the dead line?
Not for me.......I model the shinny diesels and the steam that is still in service while we wait for more shinny diesels........and like the N&W or the WM, the ATLANTIC CENTRAL takes care of that steam because its performance is necessary to our high quality service......
And one more thought about passenger service. The railroads knew way back in 1920 that without the post office, passenger trains were a black hole for money. Why do you think doodlebugs were developed for branch lines way back then?
The two wars and the depression prolonged extensive service but hampered improvements in equipment or approaches to better service. The last efforts in the 50's were too little too late, no question. But they were in fact serious, and glamorous efforts none the less.
And the country still depended heavily on the trains to move the mail in the early 50's. No one thing killed the passenger train, cars/better highways, airlines both took their toll, but it was the complete loss of the mail contracts in the 60's that really brought passenger service completely to its knees.
Sheldon,If you're interest here's the shops PRR closed,The carpenter shop,the blacksmith shop,the tool and die shop,Spruce Street passenger locomotive roundhouse,downsize St.Clair roundhouse by 33%. In short if you didn't have 30 or more years seniority you lost your job.
The Columbus shops was massive and could do the same heavy repair work as Altoona.
As a kid it scared me walking by those massive empty buildings. I can still see those buildings in my mind's eye.
BRAKIE Sheldon,If you're interest here's the shops PRR closed,The carpenter shop,the blacksmith shop,the tool and die shop,Spruce Street passenger locomotive roundhouse,downsize St.Clair roundhouse by 33%. In short if you didn't have 30 or more years seniority you lost your job. The Columbus shops was massive and could do the same heavy repair work as Altoona. As a kid it scared me walking by those massive empty buildings. I can still see those buildings in my mind's eye.
Is that what this is really about? The loss of those and similar jobs? Diesels allowed more consolidation and centralazation of those tasks, rolling stock contruction was changing, less use of wood, yes, less passenger cars.
But other changes in the economy were still creating good jobs at that point. Every new wave of progress does this.
Any further discussion of this aspect of this topic is likely not approperate for this forum.....
ATLANTIC CENTRALIs that what this is really about? The loss of those and similar jobs? Diesels allowed more consolidation and centralazation of those tasks, rolling stock contruction was changing, less use of wood, yes, less passenger cars.
Actually its about modeling the 50s with the closing of shops..Any layout emulating the 50s could have a abandon shop or two or a downsized roundhouse. That was the point.
7j43k And then there's the "international" container trains. Those are carrying 20', 40', and 45' boxes. Typically on 5 unit 40' well cars. But, again, not always. The 53' wells show up. And there's even an occasional 56'. And the paint schemes on those containers varies with each train. There'll be an "Evergreen" train, or a "Hyundai/Hanjin" train, for example. And those trains also carry a vast mix of other leased and other lines' boxes. Ed
I feel the same way. When you really think about it, one 40' intermodal container last month was probably sitting in a container ship in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. A month before that, it was being loaded in a factory in Taiwan. A month before that, it was in a ship in the middle of the Indian Ocean. A couple months before that, it was riding on the chassis of a truck on an Italian highway. And a year before that, it was being loaded off of a CSX train in New Jersey.I model the modern era, and like to watch intermodal trains to find out which container lines I need represented on my trains. Also, if you learn more about thee shipping companies, you have a better idea of where they originate from and where they typically travel. For instance Evergreen is a Taiwanese company; K-Line is a Japanese company, Maersk originates from Denmark and is usually found all over Europe.
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL Is that what this is really about? The loss of those and similar jobs? Diesels allowed more consolidation and centralazation of those tasks, rolling stock contruction was changing, less use of wood, yes, less passenger cars. Actually its about modeling the 50s with the closing of shops..Any layout emulating the 50s could have a abandon shop or two or a downsized roundhouse. That was the point.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Is that what this is really about? The loss of those and similar jobs? Diesels allowed more consolidation and centralazation of those tasks, rolling stock contruction was changing, less use of wood, yes, less passenger cars.
If I were to do that on my layout, I would model the closing of Dearborn Station in 1971 and the demolition of the train shed in 1976. Here is what it would look like.
richhotrainDunno. Seems a bit counterproductive to build a model railroad for the purpose of replicating the demise of steam, the closing of facilities, and the loss of jobs.
Its called modeling realism..One could not help but see the change taking place steam was dying and being shoved out the door to the scrap line as quickly as possible.Abandon shop buildings told the story.
A couple of abandon shop buildings on a 50 era layout is not Dearborn Station of '71 and its a rather poor comparison since a lot of those steam shop building stood for several years before being razed some lasted into the 70s. The Bellevue roundhouse still stands and being used as MOW building.
BRAKIE richhotrain Dunno. Seems a bit counterproductive to build a model railroad for the purpose of replicating the demise of steam, the closing of facilities, and the loss of jobs. Its called modeling realism..One could not help but see the change taking place steam was dying and being shoved out the door to the scrap line as quickly as possible.Abandon shop buildings told the story.
richhotrain Dunno. Seems a bit counterproductive to build a model railroad for the purpose of replicating the demise of steam, the closing of facilities, and the loss of jobs.
When I was a kid, I built models of WWII airplanes. They looked as if they had just come off the assembly line. They did not appear to be all shot up or mangled as a result of a crash landing, or worse. Why would I want to do otherwise?
richhotrainI believe that the point Sheldon is making, and one that I agree with, concerns the core hobby spirit of modeling a specific era prototype. The vast majority of modelers are going to try to replicate a railroad(s) operating in their full glory, not their demise.
Two abandon shop buildings only strengthens believability and shows the true picture of the 50s..Any old goat that was around in the 50s will recall those abandon shops. You can't hide from history.
BTW..All B17s and B24s had bullet or flak patches it was the very nature of the beast after the first or second mission.
Rich, thank you for making some great points.
And again, buildings don't fall apart over night. And just because a building is old, or shows some wear, or is empty at a particular time, that is different from "abandoned", roof caved in, windows busted out, etc.
The B&O shops in downtown Baltimore started being phased out in the mid 50's.
The old "Roundhouse car shop" is now the heart of the museum, fully restored inside and out. But it never was allowed to deteriorate. In 1953 it went directly from being the passenger car shop to being the museum. It only required major restoration in 2003 when snow collapsed the roof.
But I remember those buildings from my childhood in the 60's. Yes they looked "old", and yes they were not being used for much other than storage (of historic cars and locos for the museum), but they were not a "wreck" either. Most of those buildings did not look a wreck or get taken down until the 70's.
But one of those shop buildings remains, and houses C&O Allegheny 1604, USRA 2-8-2 4500, 4-6-2 President "Washington", and more - must not have been in too bad a shape in 1954.........
I grew up in and around this 300 year old city of Baltimore, yes we have old stuff, some of it shows its age, and should be modeled as such. There is also constant repair, restoration, rebuilding, renwal, growth and change.
Baltimore is still full of 100 and 200 year old buildings....buildings that age, get repaired, get restored, then age again.
Tell me Larry, at which part of their life cycle shoud we model each one?
We can't model it all......
And I will repeat, city or industrial "dirt" is different from neglect and decay......
So maybe things are different in Baltimore than they are in Ohio?
richhotrain When I was a kid, I built models of WWII airplanes. They looked as if they had just come off the assembly line. They did not appear to be all shot up or mangled as a result of a crash landing, or worse. Why would I want to do otherwise? Rich
I don't know why YOU would want to do otherwise. A new airplane is a beautiful airplane. Usually. But SOME people go the other direction. On the cover of the January Fine Scale Modeler recently was a model of a B-24 with a wingtip in the water as it was going down flaming.
Some people want nice, new and pretty. Some want disgusting and worn out. And some want in between that. We're sorta seeing that in this topic.
It would be realistic for me to run a garbage train in amongst my stack trains. Ain't gonna happen. And then there's grafitti. Wow. There is one hardly anyone around here does. I know I don't. And won't. And yet it's EVERYWHERE.
And even when someone does a REALLY tight job of modeling a scene/location (which really is pretty rare in model railroading), remember that they PICKED that scene/location.
ALL of we model railroaders are trying, to varying degree, to recreate a reality. Note, for example, that people who run Thomas equipment are NOT referred to as model railroaders. Though they may admittedly be having fun.
But ALL of we model railroaders are also recreating a fantasy. That is the fantasy that sort of MAKES us be model railroaders. It was somehow generated inside us. And there is no reason why everyone would develop the same fantasy.
When I was in junior high, we drove past a Santa Fe Geep in zebra stripe on a break while switching orange packing sheds. That view is still in my head. For some reason. And so I recently ordered a Walthers Santa Fe Geep and some Intermountain Santa Fe reefers. And I don't even model the southwest.
Some people's fantasy is a beautiful like-new Empire Builder going through the Cascades. Others is a falling down ratty old building next to a falling down ratty old switcher.
Driving by the local CSX mainline and saw a parked train with a variety of rolling stock. Tank cars of various types, waffle box cars, high cube box cars, even a few small hoppers that looked like they could be 4427s if any are still in service, some 2 bay covered hoppers too. Of course, the doubelheaded locos were nondescript comfort-cab six axles, but the train itelf probably had as much variety and interest as any train of any era.
And, yes, that track is a mainline, so it operates a few unit double stack and autorack trains.
ATLANTIC CENTRALTell me Larry, at which part of their life cycle shoud we model each one?
You model '54 so,a abandon shop building or two would be seen..These buildings doesn't need to be large. A small tooling shop or a small carpenter shop that's no longer needed. Its not a big deal like you're thinking it is.
I model 77/78 with lots of new 50-53' boxcars and SSRy unused small wooden office building still stands near the modern office-a BLMA yard office.
When I model SCR in 94/95 the old wooden office building is removed.The SSRy white office building is replaced with SCR tan office building-another BLMA yard office. When I model Ohio Central in 94/95 there is no office building.That area is used as a trailer drop lot since the gravel parking area for the offices remains.
If I had a larger ISL I would add one or two abandon industries or maybe their foot prints with or without a cut off rail siding.
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL Tell me Larry, at which part of their life cycle shoud we model each one?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Tell me Larry, at which part of their life cycle shoud we model each one?
richhotrainThe whole idea of a layout is to recreate the glory days of railroading, not early warnings of its decline. Rich
That was in the so called glory days as well as the "transition" area.
90% of the 50 era layouts I've seen is way to pristine and doesn't even resemble the 50s.
According to some railroad historical buffs the "glory days" ended with the coming of the boxcab and improved highways in the 20s..
BRAKIE According to some railroad historical buffs the "glory days" ended with the coming of the boxcab and improved highways in the 20s.
According to some railroad historical buffs the "glory days" ended with the coming of the boxcab and improved highways in the 20s.
I don't think this has to do with depression or optimism. I think what Brakie is saying that even in the 1950's, there were older freight cars being used on railroads along with the post war newer stuff. Did railroads really spend money washing or straightening the dents on a 20 year old coal hopper, or spent money replacing it because it didn't look pretty? Maybe the need for increased capacity as well as regulations propelled the investment in new rolling stock, but I'm sure railroads tried to get the most out of their older equipment and wouldn't spend resources keeping freight cars pretty.
This feeds into the realism thread in the General forum, but I assume there also were decades old buildings next to the new, and private industries would repurpose old buildings, or not spend the money to raze them, even in the 50s.
Here is something interesting,
I was born in December 1993, too late to see cabooses on freight trains, but just in time to see Amtrak's fleet of Amfleet San Diegans, Metroliner Cab Cars with the distinctive black/yellow stripes, F40PH's, F59PHI's, Dash 8's, and P40's in the Phase 3/Phase 4 paint, as well as red/silver, blue/yellow units on BNSF following the 1996 merger. Throw in Metrolink's White/Blue Octagon Cars and F59PH's.
I recall seeing a few Conrail units in BNSF's Commerce yard in 2002/2003.
Looking back, I'm glad I got to see all that variety, including the F40PH's. Little did I know these locomotives would become a huge hit among trainbuffs, modelers, and on the Internet following thier retirement.