In the book "One Man's Locomotives", Vernon Smith noted that when he was working for an iron mining co. railroad in Minnesota, the engines normally dropped their fire directly onto the track on their way to the engine house at the end of the day. He said by the time he got there (1929 IIRC) there was no danger of the ties catching fire, as the accumulated ash and clinker was almost up to the top of the railhead.
Some other thoughts on Ash pits: There is often confusion concerning dropping ashes verses dropping fires. At a busy terminal when a locomotive would be serviced/inspected and sent back out within a day or so, it was unlikely that the fire would be dropped. Often in busy terminals, an inbound locomotive had it's fire cleaned (clinkers removed etc...) and ashes dropped, and the fuel, sand and water topped off, then sent to the round house for inspection, lubrication and if needed minor repairs. in this case it made sense to have the ash pit in line with the rest of the servicing facilities. As far as dropping the fire, "back in the day" shop crews were loath to do it unless absolutely necessary for the repair required as it took an engine out of service for a significant period of time. It takes time to rebuild a fire, even with the engine still under pressure. Stories abound concerning shop men entering a firebox with the fire only banked to one side and the engine under full pressure to repair a leaking flue or remove a stubborn clinker.
When talking small terminals, factors other than efficiency took over, space mainly. In my home town, the CB&Q kept a small switch to work the town. It's ashes were dropped on steel plates spiked to the ties on a short length of track. There was no pit. The ashes were then scooped off the track, after that it's not clear what happened to them, Given the amount of cinders I found on the yard road and the pasture near by, my guess they were just spread around. It doesn't seem likely that a gondola or hopper would have been dedicated to hall these few ashes.
For what it's worth,
Bill
Yes!!! The good ole days when men were men and lawyers were scarce!
I worked in a truck shop that had open pits for working under the big rigs. The insurance company representative gave us a class (in his white shirt, tie, and slacks) on working around the open pits. Then he said that insurance premiums were to be quadrupled for shops with pits. A week later after forty years in use without a single mishap they were filled with concrete. So much for making our life easier?
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
Larry's right: in those days, workers knew what they could do, and what they weren't allowed to do. They also knew what they could usually get away with. The warning signs, guard rails, and safety devices that are common nowadays weren't, for the most part, in bygone years. A service area would have some lighting at night, and would likely be a whole lot safer than running along the car roofs of a moving train to set retainers, especially in the dark or in poor weather.
Nowadays, we're all assumed to be idiots, whereas in the old days, those determinations were taken care of automatically.
Wayne
But as earlier posters said, clearly an ash pit represented a potentially hazardous situation to persons on the ground particularlyi at night.
-------------------------------------
Sigh..Don't sell those tough men that called theirselves railroaders short for one second..
Unlike today,these men knew the danger and hardly gave it a thought as they went about their work since it was a way of life for these railroaders.
Every yard man knew any day could be his last and he knew all to well why his wife or mother kept a new bed sheet..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Here is a photo with the ash pit right in front of the turntable.
http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/hhh.pa3371.color.570372c/
Rich
Alton Junction
I see on a video on one of Rich's links that the fire hoses were not just in case of fire. They used them to hose out the Loco itself. I learned something today.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
The famous and much reproduced Jack Delano photograph you can see on this link, below, shows a Chicago and North Western ash pit that was in fact in line with the coaling and sanding facility. But as earlier posters said, clearly an ash pit represented a potentially hazardous situation to persons on the ground particularly at night. I have always been interested in those situations where a depressed track allowed a gondola to be spotted to haul away the ash. Other ash pits had conveyors or bucket hoists. When the Soo Line 2-8-2 1003 ran "Santa Trains" to Hartford WI a couple of years ago they dumped ash right on the track and then hosed it down.
http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/fsac.1a34645/
Dave Nelson
If you want to do anymore reading about this issue, below are a bunch of links.
http://tinyurl.com/cmn6zoq
Rivh
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Thank you, good explanations one and all. Upon further perusal of some photo's, I noticed a fire hose on a rack or laying on the ground in close proximity of the ash pits. This will be a nice little detail to add.
Roundhouses / Turntables generally had at least two tracks leading to them, one inbound for engines going to the roundhouse, and one outbound for engines going back to the roundhouse. Since steam engines needed to have coal, water, and sand to pull a train, these things needed to be available on their way out from the roundhouse to the yard where their train was waiting. Therefore, those facilities were located on the outbound track. When an engine had completed it's run, it would normally wouldn't take on water or coal or sand, but would drop it's fire in the ash pit just before going on the turntable. So putting the ashpit on the inbound track would make the most sense.
Brent.
Most likely when the servicing terminal was expanded the ash pit was not moved. As locomotives got larger, coaling towers and other facilities had to grow to match them. Locomotives not only got longer and taller but also wider and heavier. The older servicing equipment could not be torn down until new facilities were erected and open for business. Ash pits changed very little over time. From hand shoveling to mechanical unloading was the greatest change. Railroads were cheap so why move or open another when the one they had was doing just fine. Some roads expanded the ash pits to adjacent tracks by installing another pit and and auger inside a culvert pipe under ground to convey the ash to the already existing pit.
Other factors for the separation...
If there's only one hostler on duty, the priority will be to service locos needing it, either on duty already or getting ready to do so. The ash track usually had enough room, an extra loco or two could even set until the outgoing locos were caught up and the hostler could get to back to cleaning ashpans. So this facilitates terminal management.
I'm not certain about the time factor, but cleaning the ashes out may take longer than other servicing. We already discussed it's likely a lower priority task.
Keeping the ashpit away from the other servicing task was a safety factor to avoid falls into the pit. If you're ever serviced equipment, you go round and round it, focusing you attention of the unit. You don't want a big hole out of your line of sight to interfere with the task at hand. The other tasks can be accomplished on or above the ground. The one below ground was thus separate.
There are almost always at least two track leading away from the turntable and roundhouse. That way even if a switch leading to one track was out of service or other cause interrupted it, the other track could be used to access the rest of the railroad beyond the TT pit. So the separation is already somewhat in place, it's just that water/coal/sand work better in close proximity to each other than the ash pit does with any of the rest.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
The ash pit was the source of nasty gases and a potential fire hazard, so it was usually kept separated from the rest of the servicing facilities to avoid unnecessary problems.
I have seen ash pits on the same track as the rest of the servicing facilities - but fifty yards or more away. Locomotives were well clear while being serviced.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I'm not a steam guy, but isn't one track for outbound (need fueled) and one track inbound (drop ashes)?
After looking at many photo's of old engine service facilities and yards, I noticed that whether it was adjacent to the roundhouse/turntable or out in the yard area, there is a track where the sanding/coaling/water tower are all on one track. You could call it one stop shopping. In most cases where I could locate the ash pit it was on a separate track. Why was this? Wouldn't it be easier just to have the ash pit along the same track as the other services? Just wondering as I plan that part of my layout.