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Box vs. Vanderbilt tenders

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Box vs. Vanderbilt tenders
Posted by wva roots on Thursday, February 19, 2009 1:10 PM

What determined what kind of tender used with steam locos?

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Posted by dehusman on Thursday, February 19, 2009 1:28 PM

Railroad and chief mechanical officer preference.

There were probably some studies to show some sort of improvement in fabrication cost or strength (fewer leaks/repairs) of a Vanderbilt design over a box type and there were probably studies that showed the increased volume of the box type reduced the amount of material  and the length/weight of the tender making the box more economical.

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Posted by Sperandeo on Thursday, February 19, 2009 1:51 PM
This was largely up to the preference of the officials of the individual railroads as they ordered locomotives. Historically the one-time Harriman-owned roads, the Southern Pacific and Union Pacific, favored Vanderbilt tenders through the 1920s, although their tender designs diverged after the common ownership ended. In the East, the Baltimore & Ohio and Chesapeake & Ohio, which in the age of steam were unrelated, were both big users of Vanderbilt tenders. The Vanderbilt design was patented in 1901 by Cornelius Vanderbilt, grandson of the old "Commodore" Vanderbilt of New York Central fame. (However, the NYC never owned a Vanderbilt tender!). Vanderbilt took advantage of the fact that a cylinder is the most structurally efficient way to enclose a given volume, and a tender with a cylindrical water tank could therefore be lighter than a rectangular tender of equal capacity. However, when tenders grew in size along with the largest locomotives, clearance restrictions made rectangular or at least flat-sided shapes the better choice for tanks carrying 20,000 gallons or more (water capacity only) in a reasonable length. Length was an issue because it was most convenient to turn steam locomotives on turntables, which was also how they got in and out of roundhouse stalls. So long, Andy

Andy Sperandeo MODEL RAILROADER Magazine

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Posted by wjstix on Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:08 PM

Course then you have the Rock Island that converted some vanderbilt tenders into rectangular ones...sort of. Smile,Wink, & Grin

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Posted by upjake on Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:43 PM
Is it true that only Vanderbilt tenders were used for oil fuel (those roads that converted to oil instead of coal)?
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Posted by tomikawaTT on Friday, February 20, 2009 12:22 AM

upjake
Is it true that only Vanderbilt tenders were used for oil fuel (those roads that converted to oil instead of coal)?

Both the C&O and the B&O burned coal, carried in the bunkers of Vanderbilt tenders.  So, I believe, did some of the 'eastern' Harriman roads (Chicago and Alton?) - and a major part of the UP was coal-burning.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

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Posted by markpierce on Friday, February 20, 2009 1:01 AM

upjake
Is it true that only Vanderbilt tenders were used for oil fuel (those roads that converted to oil instead of coal)?

 

Not a'tall.  The eastern roads that used Vanderbilts used coal, and a lot of UP and some SP Vanderbilts carried coal.  The fuel portion of these tenders were rectangular or semi-rectangular in shape.

Now, the whaleback (a large cylinder with the lengthwise bottom half removed) and pure cylindrical tenders such as used by the SP were all oil carriers ASAIK.

Mark

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Posted by 4merroad4man on Friday, February 20, 2009 7:47 AM

wjstix

Course then you have the Rock Island that converted some vanderbilt tenders into rectangular ones...sort of. Smile,Wink, & Grin

The semi-vanderbilt tender as used behind a majority of SP's Mt-class 4-8-2's and larger locomotives was known as a Hicken Tender.  SP Class C-160-C1 was a representative class for this tender, also known as a Semi-Vanderbilt type.

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Posted by wjstix on Friday, February 20, 2009 8:20 AM

The Rock Island ones were kinda similar, but were 'kitbashed'. They took vanderbilt tenders and added new sides to them so they were straight on the sides but still round on top, plus still had the coal bunker like a 'normal' vanderbilt. I tried finding a pic of one online but couldn't come up with anything, but you can see them in the current "Remember The Rock" magazine.

Stix
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Posted by jeffhergert on Friday, February 20, 2009 6:15 PM

wjstix

The Rock Island ones were kinda similar, but were 'kitbashed'. They took vanderbilt tenders and added new sides to them so they were straight on the sides but still round on top, plus still had the coal bunker like a 'normal' vanderbilt. I tried finding a pic of one online but couldn't come up with anything, but you can see them in the current "Remember The Rock" magazine.

Some of the "loaf of bread" tenders were converted into snow plows after the steam era.  They even outlasted the RI.  There is one at the National Museum of Transportation in St. Louis in Cotton Belt paint.

Jeff

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Posted by onequiknova on Saturday, February 21, 2009 6:38 PM

 

  I never knew the Rock Island rebuilt these tenders. I figured they were built that way.

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Posted by Ross Chapman on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 7:46 AM

The first vanderbuilt tender is nice looking - that second on is a pig!

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Posted by CB&Q Modeler on Sunday, March 01, 2009 8:19 PM

 Might say unique but certainly not a pig' ....wake up on the wrong side of the bed did we?

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Posted by twhite on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 11:07 PM

The Rio Grande used Vandy tenders on two classes of their freight locomotives, the 1000 series of 2-8-0's from Baldwin and the F-series 2-10-2's from ALCO.  The 1000 series 2-8-0's were supplanted by newer 1100 ALCO-built C-48's with rectangular tenders early in the 20th century, and the F-81 2-10-2's of 1916 were transferred from Colorado to coal service on Soldier Summit in Utah, where some of them were converted to rectangular tenders from scrapped 2-8-8-2's right after WWII.  However, some of the 2-10-2's kept their 'stubby' Vandys right up to scrappiing in the mid-1950's.  It was always kind of a shock to me to see photos of those huge, long-wheel based locos with their stubby little Vandy's, but evidently they served these locos well during almost forty years of service.   Don't have a prototype photo that I can load up, but I do have a photo of my PSC model of #1408 on service on my own Rio Grande Yuba River Sub--which kept its stubby Vandy throughout its lifetime.  As you can see, that Vandy does NOT look like it belongs to the locomotive, but that's the way ALCO delivered them to the Rio Grande back in 1916-17.   Myself, I think it's kind of neat. 

 

Tom

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Posted by markpierce on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 11:32 PM

twhite

  It was always kind of a shock to me to see photos of those huge, long-wheel based locos with their stubby little Vandy's, but evidently they served these locos well during almost forty years of service.  

Yes, they do look odd.  The typical reason for a very short tender in relation to locomotive size, at least for western railroads where most trips were long distance, was because of the limited length of turntables.  Still, an upgraded, super-heated, super efficient SP Atlantic could run all day with a tender like that.

I have a preference for the very large, semi-round "Vanderbilt" tenders with six-wheel trucks, next to Whalebacks that is.

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Posted by markpierce on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 11:35 PM

Come to think of it, my recently-acquired model of a UP 2-10-2 has a rectangular extension atop the cylindrical water tank of its Vanderbilt tender.  That makes for something unusual.

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Posted by andrechapelon on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 1:05 AM

 

 Don't have a prototype photo that I can load up, but I do have a photo of my PSC model of #1408 on service on my own Rio Grande Yuba River Sub--which kept its stubby Vandy throughout its lifetime.  As you can see, that Vandy does NOT look like it belongs to the locomotive, but that's the way ALCO delivered them to the Rio Grande back in 1916-17.   Myself, I think it's kind of neat. 

This help?

 http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/RG1403X2.JPG

Andre 

My wife tells me that I'm beyond help. I think what she's actually trying to say is that assistance is futile.

 

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Posted by Sperandeo on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 9:02 AM

Hello Mark,

The tender supplied with the Broadway Union Pacific 2-10-2s represents a 12,000-gallon Vanderbilt tender  enlarged with a rectangular extension to carry 13,500 gallons of water. This was quite common on UP 2-10-2s that kept their original tenders, although some of the engines were simply given larger tenders in their later years. The UP Historical Society magazine, the Streamliner, had a well-illustrated article on UP tenders in a recent issue, Volume 22, No. 3. It includes some interesting details about the development of Vanderbilt tenders on the Harriman roads and of course the UP in particular. Copies are available at www.uphs.org.

So long,

 Andy
 

Andy Sperandeo MODEL RAILROADER Magazine

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