Steam boot-up-timeline

[selector]

I hope to get a response from the more knowledgeable steam operators, past and present. In the "Railroads" forum, next door, the question was asked about the time it takes to hostle a steamer to operating temps. Some apparently knowledgeable fellows claim as much as two days, while a story by a volunteer hostler on a western excursion railway describes arriving at the engine house near 0400 hrs and taking a stone cold loco up to moving order by the time the operators show up in the parking lot around 1000 hrs.

What's the scoop? Mark?

-Crandell

[Leon Silverman]

I heard the two day start-up time applied to a Big Boy. Parking an automobile in an unheated garage overnight makes it a lot easier to start the next morning than if it were left outside. A steam locomotive, even a relatively small one, has a lot more mass than an automobile engine. The outside surfaces on that engine may have become cool to the touch while still retaining some internal heat. Zero steam pressure will occur only after the the water temperature falls below 212 degrees ( maybe 200 degrees if you are at a higher elevation. In other words, the water temperature may not actually be that cold.

[TomDiehl]

The story you're recalling Crandell, was a Railroad Reading story, not an everyday occurance. The steam locomotives, in their day, could probably be brought from dtone cold, up to pressure and ready to go in about 8 to 10 hours. The two day figure quoted is working on the cautious side, a must when you're talking about rare or historic locomotives.

[Anonymous]

"A watched pot never boils" doesn't hold for the loves of our lives. So many things they did not teach at Boy Scout Camp. First just to get a fire lit off without any accessories like the steam operated blower to create draft for the fire to begin to raise the temperature of the water in the boiler to any where near the level to produce enough pressure to add water to the boiler using the injectors which would impede the production of steam by introducing more "cold" water to the equation. A great many man hours just to get the locomotive to the point it is ready to move, much less go to work. Lucky for the hostler he had oiling, greasing, and cleaning to do while the tea kettle came to a boil. That doesn't even take into account the addition of more coal to the fire regularly.
It is understandable that a Big Boy or any of the other huge firebox engines took a great deal of time to get to temperature, partcularly without the aid of a stoker, or other appliances..

Will

[AltonFan]

Many times hostlers would "jump start" a steam engine by giving it a charge from a stationary boiler.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

I hope to get a response from the more knowledgeable steam operators, past and present. In the "Railroads" forum, next door, the question was asked about the time it takes to hostle a steamer to operating temps. Some apparently knowledgeable fellows claim as much as two days, while a story by a volunteer hostler on a western excursion railway describes arriving at the engine house near 0400 hrs and taking a stone cold loco up to moving order by the time the operators show up in the parking lot around 1000 hrs.
What's the scoop? Mark?

Crandell, it's hard to give a definitive answer, since so much depends on the operating practices of each individual railway. But generally speaking, slower is better when lighting up from "stone cold". If the hostler referred to was really going from cold to ready for traffic in 6 hours or less on decent sized loco, he'd be forcing the boiler and doing damage. If I was running the show, I'd be looking for another hostler...

Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Overdurff

First just to get a fire lit off without any accessories like the steam operated blower to create draft for the fire to begin to raise the temperature of the water in the boiler to any where near the level to produce enough pressure to add water to the boiler using the injectors which would impede the production of steam by introducing more "cold" water to the equation.

It doesn't work that way. Most locos are equipped to run the blower off shop air or steam supply, so drafting isn't a problem when lighting up. There were also a number of proprietary portable blowers available for smaller locations that lacked a stationary steam supply or shop air. As for putting on a feed when lighting up - you don't. You start out with enough water in the thing to begin with. You wouldn't run an injector until you were well and truly "financial", and were either testing appliances, or wanted to keep the engine quiet, and stop it from blowing off.

Cheers,

Mark.

[edkowal]

Try reading the story at the following link: http://www.sdrm.org/faqs/hostling.html

It will give a good feel for the time involved.

-Ed

[selector]

Thanks, everyone. So, somewhere between 10 and 15 hours is probably more realistic for a Northern class or larger.

No wonder we moved to push-start.

-Crandell

[wjstix]

Course it's important to remember steam engines - unless they were in the shops for repairs - would rarely have been totally cold. In normal situations they would be kept at least somewhat warm while in the roundhouse, so it would only take 2-4 hours to get them up and running the next day. Still does show why the 24-7 availability of diesels sounded so good to steam railroads !!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by marknewton

QUOTE: Originally posted by Overdurff

First just to get a fire lit off without any accessories like the steam operated blower to create draft for the fire to begin to raise the temperature of the water in the boiler to any where near the level to produce enough pressure to add water to the boiler using the injectors which would impede the production of steam by introducing more "cold" water to the equation.

It doesn't work that way. Most locos are equipped to run the blower off shop air or steam supply, so drafting isn't a problem when lighting up.

Mark,

I read your bio details, so I know you are talking from experience. I would like to ask a question or two because you have been working on the machines.

• How long would it take to fire up 3801 from cold?
• Do they let the fire go out between operations? If not how long would they leave it with a fire going but not actually running out of the shed?
• Is (was) the C38 class hand fired? (Off topic but curious)

Most who read this might not know what 3801 is, so a picture or two below to help.





Thanks, hoping you read and answer.

Cheers,
John

[marknewton]

G'day John, I'd always allow myself at least 8 to 10 hours for a light-up, so that usually meant putting a match in the day before a job, and having someone sit the engine with a banked fire overnight. If we were only doing a one-day job, we'd knock the fire at the end of the day. If we were running the following day as well, we'd simply bank the fire overnight, as above. The longest I've ever the had the thing continuously in steam was for a fortnight, when we went to Victoria in 2000.

38s were hand fired, although they were originally intended to have mechanical stokers.

All the best,

Mark.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Mark,

The fireman would earn his pay.

[Anonymous]

And at the other end of the spectrum, my little vertical boilered 0-4-0 Grasshopper 7 1/2" gauge loco will go from stone cold to blowing the safeties in 8 to 10 minutes.
It depends on the size of the loco, and the fuel used also. Mine is fired with propane. Fill the boiler with water, light the burner, and by the time I get everything lubed up it's ready to roll.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bush9245

Thanks Mark,

The fireman would earn his pay.

They did, every cent. But it's worth noting that out on the road you aren't firing hard constantly. As an example, if we were running a job to Newcastle, you'd put in a fair bit of work preparing the fire on the way into Sydney Terminal with the empty cars, and while standing in the platform waiting for the off. During that time you'd put in a large bank, and work your injector, blower and door to keep the engine quiet while standing. After departure, you could fire light and easily all the way to Strathfield and beyond, until you started building the bank again for the long climb to Berowra. After Cowan, you could bludge on the run down to the River, and then fire flat across Mullet Creek and over Woy Woy to Gosford. While taking water there, you'd once again get your fire into shape for the undulating road to Broadmeadow.

All the while you're firing, you're keeping an eye on the train, and calling the road to your driver, as well as waving at the kids along the line - very important! [:)] If you had a good mate, he'd spell you on the shovel every now and then, and give you a chance to sit down and catch your breath. Your mate's driving technique had a lot to do with whether you had a good trip or a shocker. "Podgers", as they were known on the NSWGR, were blokes best avoided - they'd run up hill and down dale two turns back from full gear, and flog you the whole trip.

I was very lucky. I was taught the craft of firing properly, by some very skilled and professional enginemen. The young blokes starting out today don't have the same opportunities as I did, nor do they have the benefit of learning from blokes who had thirty and forty years of footplate experience.

I might point out for the benefit of US forum members that we operated on a heavily-trafficked electrified mainline, and that we had to run at track speed wherever possible - which was 115kph. We did this almost every weekend throughout the year, from February to December. Our typical working day saw us start at 4.00am, and finish about 10.00pm. It wasn't just a litle backwater tourist line operation.

All the best.

Mark.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edkowal

Try reading the story at the following link: http://www.sdrm.org/faqs/hostling.html
It will give a good feel for the time involved.

It gave me the feeling that their boilermaker -assuming they had one - would have had a full time job replacing broken wallstays.[:(]

He reckons he put a match in at 5.30am, and by 8.30am had 10 pounds on. 3 hours from cold, for an engine that size? As I said before, I'd be looking for a new hostler.

Cheers,

Mark.

[wjstix]

p.s. FWIW during the steam age the term "boot-up" didn't exist, that term was originated in the 40's and didn't come in popular usage until many decades later. [:)]

[marknewton]

It's certainly not a term I've ever used, nor heard used. In my depot, the commonly used expressions were "light-up", "flash -up", or "put a match in".

[BRJN]

The guys who run NKP 765 said that it took them two days to go from cold-and-dark to a full head of steam. This may be a bit on the long side from historical norms because:
(A) 2-8-4's are big locomotives
(B) They had just finished tearing the locomotive apart for a 15-yr rehabilitation and putting it back together; they had to look for leaks &c
(C) They had to be very careful to not torture the steel plates via heat stress; there is no longer a Lime Locomotive Company to order replacement parts from.
If there were still a functioning industrial infrastructure to support steam engines, and your locomotive was not on the huge end of the spectrum, you could take short cuts and get moving quicker.

[Anonymous]

Mark,

Thanks for that story of running 3801 from the big smoke up to Necastle. Brought back some memories. My grandparents' house overlooked the goods yard just north of Gosford station.[:D][tup] Used to love watching a 38 take the Newcastle Flyer through. No wires overhead in those days - early 1950s.

At night we often heard the sound of the engines losing traction as they tried to start a train out of the station. Maybe the mail trains were heavy in those days. Have to try to put that in my QSI sound system when I get my C38 from Eureka. I suppose as a professional railway man that noise would be a horror to you. Seemed to happen reasonably often if I remember back.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bush9245

Thanks for that story of running 3801 from the big smoke up to Necastle. Brought back some memories. My grandparents' house overlooked the goods yard just north of Gosford station.[:D][tup] Used to love watching a 38 take the Newcastle Flyer through. No wires overhead in those days - early 1950s.

My pleasure. That's something I would have loved to seen, but my earliest memories of Gosford are from after electrification. As a kid, my dad would take me up to Gosford early on a Saturday morning, and we'd spend hours watching the activity in 'loco', or chasing trains across the straight at Tuggerah. The Short North has fond memories for me, too!

QUOTE: At night we often heard the sound of the engines losing traction as they tried to start a train out of the station. Maybe the mail trains were heavy in those days. Have to try to put that in my QSI sound system when I get my C38 from Eureka. I suppose as a professional railway man that noise would be a horror to you. Seemed to happen reasonably often if I remember back.

I'm sure it did. The mails were usually right on the load for a 38. But even so, 38s are a slippery loco - I couldn't count the number of times '01 has "lost it's feet" leaving Strathfield on the up main! The worst thing about slipping from a fireman's point of view is having your fire pulled apart. You either keep the door open, or get it open fast, otherwise the sudden pull on the fire will turn your bank over and pull most of it into the smokebox.

The most embarrassing slip I ever experienced was was at Allan's Creek at Port Kembla. We were turning the engine on the triangle, and had a huge slip right in front of a perway gang, who had just replaced some of the track in the turnout we were slipping on! You should have seen the filthy looks they gave us! [:I]

All the best,

Mark.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Mark