Strange tender feature.....

[Jacktal]

I have Norfolk&Western 2-8-8-2 Mallet (LL Heritage N scale) that is pulling a tender that is equipped with a phone boot sized cabin sticking out on top of it.Can someone tell me what this was for.Its position lends to think it was for a guard,but then we should see this features on other tenders as well.Thanks.

[ndbprr]

It is a place out of the weather for the head end brakeman to sit facing backward watching the train for problems. At one time the N&W was controlled by the PRR that had them on most of their freight engines. Not at all unusal to us PRR modelers.

[TomDiehl]

This was normally called the "doghouse." It was a small shelter for the head end brakeman (Guard as you're calling it). Several railroads used these when the cab of the loco was to small or too crowded to have the extra man ride there.

[wjstix]

It was a fairly common feature. Usually it was used by railroads that pulled long trains (like N&W pulling 100 car coal trains) where they needed a fifth crewman (engineer and fireman + head end brakeman up front, conductor and rear brakie in the caboose) but maybe didn't have room in the cab for the head brakeman. However shortline Minneapolis Northfield and Southern had them on their Russian Decapods, maybe that had something to do with the amount of switching they did - they were a beltline RR connecting all the railroads around the western suburbs of Minneapolis - plus the harsh weather conditions in winter.

[Isambard]

Apart from the loco cab often being to small to accomodate a headend brakie, having a doghouse meant that the brakie didn't have to scramble over the coal load, or the oil tank if oil fueled.

The doghouse couldn't have been that comfortable in winter or summer, but then was it all that great in the cab of a steam loco as compared with today's loco's.
[:)]

[ahuffman]

Was there steam heat in the doghouse?

[twcenterprises]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ahuffman

Was there steam heat in the doghouse?

Not that I know of.

The only ventilation in the doghouse was an open door.

Brad

[tomikawaTT]

When Stuart Saunders became the president of the Norfolk and Western, he dieselized all of the remaining passenger service with leased RF&P units. The displaced J's were demoted to local freight service, with doghouses welded to their tender decks.

After that, Saunders went on to preside over the Penn Central debacle.

Chuck

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ahuffman

Was there steam heat in the doghouse?

That would appear to depend on what road you're asking about - some did, some didn't. What railroads are you interested in?

Mark

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wjstix

It was a fairly common feature. Usually it was used by railroads that pulled long trains (like N&W pulling 100 car coal trains) where they needed a fifth crewman (engineer and fireman + head end brakeman up front, conductor and rear brakie in the caboose) but maybe didn't have room in the cab for the head brakeman....

As far as I'm aware the ICC mandated proper accomodation for the head brakeman. Some railroads extended the existing cab, or added a seat. Others used doghouses... I'm not at home at the moment, so I don't have a reference to hand.

Mark.

[twhite]

"Doghouses" weren't common to all American railroads, but the Pennsylvania and Norfolk and Western were big users in the East. In the West, the Denver and Rio Grande used them on all but a couple of classes of their steamers, and Western Pacific used them on some of their Mikados and 2-6-6-2's. There were other railroads that used them on certain classes of locos--I think Northern Pacific utilized them on several classes of their Mikados. I model Rio Grande steam, and so far the only locos that I've gotten without doghouses are the 1800 series 4-8-4's and the 3700 series 4-6-6-4's. And the reason for that is that both classes of locos had extended all-weather cabs that could fit a brakeman along with the engineer and fireman. Personally, I think that they add a lot of character to the loco.
Tom

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ahuffman

Was there steam heat in the doghouse?

The PRR tenders had steam heat type of radiator in their doghouses.

[Frisco1522]

Frisco's doghouses had a steam heat radiator coil under the floorboards and the windows would open. Sort of 360 air conditioning, two windows and a door open at 60 mph.

[csmith9474]

That must of been real nice, being surrounded by all that cold water in the middle of winter with no heat in some cases.

[wjstix]

Surrounded by water?? [%-)][%-)]

[csmith9474]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wjstix

Surrounded by water?? [%-)][%-)]

Some (if not most?) were built into the water tank of the tender.

[wjstix]

If you mean the doghouse, no, it was built entirely on top of the tender deck.

[ndbprr]

I believe most railroads that operated in the north and saw sub freezing temps. had steam coils in the tender to prevent freezing. the water isn't much good if it is solid. Even keeping the water at 40 degrees would be a lot better than 32 or lower.

[West Coast S]

Years ago TRAINS, I believe, featured a 2-8-0 I believe, operated by a Eastern shortline that converted 2/3 of the water tank to crew accomidations, complete with windows and a door salvaged from a scrapped caboose!! The article further stated that the only complaint was the now reduced water capacity that required more frequent water stops......Truly was a odd and unattractive conversion I must say.



Dave

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ahuffman

Was there steam heat in the doghouse?

Every road I'm familar with -mostly in the Midwest and Northeast - had steam heat on their doghouses. A surprising number of roads even had steam-heat in the loco cabs...

Mark.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wjstix

If you mean the doghouse, no, it was built entirely on top of the tender deck.

csmith is in part correct - at least some of the Pennsy tenders with doghouses had them recessed into the water space. The 210-F-75 and 210-F-75As certainly did. Perhaps a Pennsy specialist can say whether others did as well. And I suspect that some N&W tenders may have had recessed doghouses as well.

Mark.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ndbprr

I believe most railroads that operated in the north and saw sub freezing temps. had steam coils in the tender to prevent freezing.

Are you sure about this? I ask because I have never see any reference or mention of this feature, and I can see a number of potential problems such an arrangement might cause.

All the best,

Mark.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Several roads that used oil-burning steam had steam coils in the tender to keep the fuel flowing. Bunker C is pretty thick to begin with and it will congeal in colder weather. It needs to be warmed up periodically just to flow, even in relatively mild weather.

[Eriediamond]

I'm no expert on steam locos, but I do know that some tenders had steam piped through them to keep the coal and water from freezing. As for the brakeman's dog house, I can't imagine not haveing heat for those working in the northeast winters.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

Several roads that used oil-burning steam had steam coils in the tender to keep the fuel flowing...

Thanks, I'm well aware of that. What I'm asking about is the claim that "railroads that operated in the north and saw sub freezing temps. had steam coils in the tender to prevent freezing. the water isn't much good if it is solid..." which refers to heating the water, not fuel oil. That's what I'd like more information on.

Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Eriediamond

I'm no expert on steam locos, but I do know that some tenders had steam piped through them to keep the coal and water from freezing.

Again, are you sure about this? Perhaps you are thinking of the steam heat connections provided for passenger car heating? As I noted before, I've never seen any reference to this in any engineering or trade literature, nor have I ever seen any tenders so equipped. What is the source of your information?

Cheers,

Mark.